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  #1541  
Old 06-05-2016, 03:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Mermaid1962 View Post
Dimbley's book is also responsible for the idea that Charles never loved Diana. All of Charles' and Diana's efforts to make themselves "better understood" didn't do either of them any good IMO.
I agree with you regarding the impact of Charles' and Diana's efforts to make themselves look better. However, Dimbleys' book was published in 1994, about 2 years after Diana's book. By that time the narrative that Charles never loved Diana was pretty much accepted as gospel truth by most of the media. The Dimbley book was seen as confirmation. I doubt that many people actually read it.
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  #1542  
Old 06-05-2016, 03:32 PM
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My take is that Diana wanted to marry into the royal family from a young age, you do not need to "keep yourself tidy" if you want to be a lawyer or a newsreader. And then when she saw that she had a chance "to land the big fish" there was no stopping her, she would have crawled over hot coals to become the wife of the heir.

Charles gave Diana multiple indicators that he was not madly in love with her but she ignored those indicators to get the HRH and then when things went south she played the victim. For example in the engagement interview when the "in love" question was asked, Diana rolled her eyes and when Charles replied "whatever 'in love' means," she didn't seem offended by it, but recalling the incident years later she deftly played both sides and basically said that she thought it was an awful question to ask but then also said was shaken by Charles response. She also said that when Charles proposed to her that he made a similar comment regarding being "in love," nevertheless she accepted his proposal on the spot even though Charles suggested that she take time to think it over while she was visiting her mother in Australia.

Charles did not conduct himself perfectly or use good judgement but I don't see what good it would have done if he would have laid out all the scenarios, good and bad, for Diana, plus you'd have to go back 150+ years to find a miserable marriage involving an heir or monarch regardless of whether it was a love match or an arranged marriage, so even though in hindsight it was very clear that Charles and Diana's relationship was riddled with challenges, I can see why everyone involved assumed that things would work out for the best.

I am a Diana fan and admirer but I do judge her more harshly regarding the circumstances leading up to her and Charles getting married, not because of her craven ambition and her doing whatever it took to "land the big fish" but I am more put off by how she played the victim and villainized other parties. Having said that, all in all, I see Charles and Diana as two mostly decent people who married each other, produced a couple of children, but in the end their marriage did not work.
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  #1543  
Old 06-05-2016, 03:43 PM
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Originally Posted by HistoryGirl View Post
I think there are ways to be dutiful without choosing to marry someone you're not entirely sure you love. And various royals have proven that; including the Queen.
Royal history for centuries and throughout every country has had people who did their duty and married someone they didn't love. This concept of marrying for love is quite new...plus Charles and Diana have both said that they were in love at the beginning.

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I don't think I implied that you didn't make that point. Your previous post seemed to be a criticism of Charles for marrying someone he wasn't sure he loved. My post was a response to that. I truly don't think that romantic love was his primary goal and I don't think that that made him weak I absolutely agree with you that they wanted different things and were fundamentally incompatible.
Love doesn't guarantee a successful marriage. Andrew and Sarah were in love and they didn't last 6 years.
There is no doubt in my mind that William and Kate love each other but they both seemed to understand that a long term successful relationship takes more than that, something I think Charles believed as well. He thought they were compatible and on the same page; he didn't get to see what Diana was really looking for in a marriage because she was fooling herself into believing she liked everything he did.
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  #1544  
Old 06-05-2016, 04:02 PM
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But it wasn't hundreds of years ago, it was the 1980s. There was a time when duty and love could not really combine, that wasn't the case with D and C. He was very hesitant to marry her or anybody for a reason. I will reiterate what I've said countless times in my previous posts again, there is nothing wrong with marrying a companion to just live life peacefully...as long as the other person wants the same thing. They didn't want the same things, yet they went ahead with it anyway.

Diana was also wary about him, but she wanted to marry the prince so she went ahead with the marriage knowing that she had doubts. Not the best decision when it comes to a life long commitment.
  #1545  
Old 06-06-2016, 12:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Queen Claude View Post
My tak
C

I am a Diana fan and admirer but I do judge her more harshly regarding the circumstances leading up to her and Charles getting married, not because of her craven ambition and her doing whatever it took to "land the big fish" but I am more put off by how she played the victim and villainized other parties. Having said that, all in all, I see Charles and Diana as two mostly decent people who married each other, produced a couple of children, but in the end their marriage did not work.
Craven ambition? what does that Mean?
And i think you are judging Diana harshly. I think her desire to "keep herself tidy" was much more to do with her own fears of men, and marriage, becuase of her parents unhappiness, than an ambition to marry a Prince. But she'd been reared to get married, with no other career in view. She wasn't going to be a lawyer or newsreader, even if she had wanted to, she hadn't got the education or brain power..so she was conflicted and wanted ot make a marriage that she felt was secure form the fear of divorce, and have children. Of course when she had Charles dating her, she was pleased, and willing to go along with things to please him to an extent..and accepted him first time of asking. Im sure that many girls of her class would have done the same, had he offered. If you are brought up to marry well, then the POW is about the best match you can get socially and financially speaking... and I think she did admire and love him in a very "Young" way, becuase she was young and immature..
  #1546  
Old 06-06-2016, 09:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Curryong View Post
I think it takes two to make or break a marriage. I don't think Charles was the main reason the marriage failed but I don't believe Diana was either.

I don't think Charles was used to compromise in his private life. As an adult he had been used to getting his own way, people agreeing with his pronouncements on life, having people rushing to anticipate his wishes, aides doing his research, a large number of servants and other staff making his life comfortable and easy.

He expected a very young woman to fit in with this, and, like his staff, anticipate his wishes and make him happy, perform the role of Princess of Wales and share his hobbies and interests. What about her hobbies and interests? Did they not count? What about him thinking about anticipating her wishes, (developing an interest in modern music for example) adopting a few of her interests in their future life together? Apparently that wasn't expected to be important.

What young woman would be happy and satisfied with the man they're engaged to sitting them down and saying "Well, I really don't love you in the same way as you seem to love me, and I don't love you as much! However, I want us to share our interests and I am sure that I will learn to love you after marriage. I am sure love will come on my part...." ?? Most young women, let alone 19/20 year olds would be absolutely devastated at those sort of revelations. In fact, I think most women of any age would walk out after a conversation on those lines!

I think Diana was in love with Charles, yes with the whole shebang around him, but with the man too. I don't think that too many 19yearolds in Western societies anticipate marriage without romantic love, stars bursting in the heavens, hearts churning, the feeling you'd do anything for the loved one. The sort of love in fact that Charles obviously felt and feels for Mrs Parker Bowles.

In that, I believe that Diana was absolutely typical of her contemporaries. And I tell you what, I was 27 when I got engaged and I wanted and expected and got that too.
As the mother of an 18-year-old, I can say without qualification there is no way that a 19 year old is capable of such a decision (although they certainly think they are) - and how Charles and his/her family did not realize this is beyond my comprehension. I think it is as you say, Charles spent his entire life surrounded by people who gave in to his every whim, to the point where he probably never understood the give-and-take of a normal relationship. She was chronologically 19 and I'm not sure how much older he was mentally at the time.

I understand why a 19 year old fell in love with Charles and married him, but I'm not sure I will ever understand why he married her. I do think they both went into it with the best of intentions, however. I'm not sure there's blame to assign. Both were victims of some very bizarre circumstances.
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  #1547  
Old 06-06-2016, 03:51 PM
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Really? He married her because he had to marry a girl with no past and that meant by the 1980 mark that there were probalby very few girls of his own age who had no previous lovers, or at least lovers who could be absolutely guaranteed not to talk. So a girl of 19 or 20 or so was the only game in town. and the queen was no older when she married and has had a very long and happy marriage...
I agreed that probalby not that many 19 year olds are really mature enough for marriage but that doesn't mean that none of them are... and unfortunately Diana was one of the ones who was mentally and emotionally MUCH younger than her age. As one of C's friends said, it was like talking to a very young not very clever teenager..
  #1548  
Old 06-06-2016, 09:55 PM
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She seems to have thought from a young age that she was going to marry someone very important, although not necessarily that it was the Prince of Wales. The thing I find interesting about the "keeping herself tidy" remark is that it doesn't seem to have anything to do with morality or religious belief. It seems to have been a practical thing, that her virginity was going to be used as kind of qualifier for when she met The Man of Her Dreams.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Denville View Post
I think her desire to "keep herself tidy" was much more to do with her own fears of men, and marriage, becuase of her parents unhappiness, than an ambition to marry a Prince.
  #1549  
Old 06-06-2016, 10:01 PM
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I think part of the reason she 'kept herself tidy' was her lack of self confidence and insecurity.

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  #1550  
Old 06-06-2016, 10:05 PM
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People remain virgins for reasons not related to issues of insecurity. However, in Diana's case, I think you're definitely onto something. Perhaps she felt she couldn't get along in life without a marriage to a powerful man.
  #1551  
Old 06-06-2016, 11:38 PM
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Charles and Diana

I agree like waiting till you love someone. Charles didn't he had a lot of lovers


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  #1552  
Old 06-07-2016, 12:08 AM
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Originally Posted by HistoryGirl View Post
But it wasn't hundreds of years ago, it was the 1980s. There was a time when duty and love could not really combine, that wasn't the case with D and C.
It wasn't centuries ago, it was 1 century ago or 75-50yrs ago. Marrying for love was something few people did and it only became a thing in the 20th century. And what about Princess Margaret? She chose not to marry because she put duty first. People marry for a variety of reasons and people stay married for a variety of reasons. Charles and Diana loved ideas about each other and in different ways. He saw a companion who would help him through life, she saw a dashing Prince who would save her from her life. It was a comedy of errors type thing.
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  #1553  
Old 06-07-2016, 07:34 AM
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Right. They married each other because they thought it would be a great marriage. Charles found Diana charming and he was sexually attracted to her if not wholly in love with her. He didn't marry Diana out of duty, he married her because she was cute and willing and practically worshipped him.

In regards to Margaret, if you're referring to her being 'denied the right to marry her one true love Peter Townsend' that's a myth that's being deconstructed.

Princess Margaret: recently unearthed letter sheds new light on decision not to marry - Telegraph

And that's part of it. There's a lot of myths when it comes to Charles and Diana that make for good fairytale fodder and are therefore continued to be repeated. That Diana was chosen by the big, bad Palace to be the pure, virginal mother to a future king. That Charles chose duty over his one true love, Camilla and was a victim of his father's domineering nature and chose Diana because he saw no other way. To be fair, C and D both helped push these extreme narratives in order to blame the other person for the downfall of the marriage.

There were pressures to marry, as there always are with royals, from both the media and the establishment. However, Charles was in control of his choice; no one forced him to choose Diana he just chose incorrectly. So did Diana. It happens, nothing to villify anyone over. The fallout was ugly, but the beginning wasn't horrible at all. Which was the motivating factor to choose to enter the marriage to begin with.
  #1554  
Old 06-07-2016, 02:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HistoryGirl View Post
Right. They married each other because they thought it would be a great marriage. Charles found Diana charming and he was sexually attracted to her if not wholly in love with her. He didn't marry Diana out of duty, he married her because she was cute and willing and practically worshipped him.

In regards to Margaret, if you're referring to her being 'denied the right to marry her one true love Peter Townsend' that's a myth that's being deconstructed.

Princess Margaret: recently unearthed letter sheds new light on decision not to marry - Telegraph

And that's part of it. There's a lot of myths when it comes to Charles and Diana that make for good fairytale fodder and are therefore continued to be repeated. That Diana was chosen by the big, bad Palace to be the pure, virginal mother to a future king. That Charles chose duty over his one true love, Camilla and was a victim of his father's domineering nature and chose Diana because he saw no other way. To be fair, C and D both helped push these extreme narratives in order to blame the other person for the downfall of the marriage.

There were pressures to marry, as there always are with royals, from both the media and the establishment. However, Charles was in control of his choice; no one forced him to choose Diana he just chose incorrectly. So did Diana. It happens, nothing to villify anyone over. The fallout was ugly, but the beginning wasn't horrible at all. Which was the motivating factor to choose to enter the marriage to begin with.

I agree they did love each other in the beginning. Maybe the love was immature on both parts but it was there.
  #1555  
Old 06-07-2016, 03:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Mermaid1962 View Post
She herself tidy" remark is that it doesn't seem to have anything to do with morality or religious belief. It seems to have been a practical thing, that her virginity was going to be used as kind of qualifier for when she met The Man of Her Dreams.
well she said that much later, when she had been embittered by a bad marriage.. I think that it had more to do with her fears about sex and men, and her fear of getting into an unhappy marriage, esp when she had been reared to think that her only way of fulfilling herself was by marrying...

I suppose it is possible that she did also think that if she had a crack at marrying someone very prominent like the POW, a reputation as having remained a virgin and had a very moderate restrained dating life.. no scandals in her past.. would do her good..
She said at some point that she had thought of her self as marrying someone in the public eye, not necessarily the POW...
But I think she was afraid of sex, afraid of getting involved wtih the wrong sort of guy, afraid of marrying and its all going wrong like her mother's marriage had done...
However it might have simply been that she didn't find anyone she especialy cared about or found attractive, during her few years as a single girl..Still Im inclined to feel that she kept her virginity mainly becuase of fearing too deep invovlements...
  #1556  
Old 06-09-2016, 01:43 AM
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Originally Posted by HistoryGirl View Post
panion to just live life peacefully...as long as the other person wants the same thing. They didn't want the same things, yet they went ahead with it anyway.

Diana was also wary about him, but she wanted to marry the prince so she went ahead with the marriage knowing that she had doubts. Not the best decision when it comes to a life long commitment.
But they believed that they wanted the same things... Charles believed that Diana was a companion who shared his interests and who was young enough to be guided and moulded into the RF... She made herself believe that she had a romantic love for him and he for her and that she also shared the interests. I don’t know if she was wary about him, she said that later... But at the time I think that she was Ok, a bit scared but believing she was going to be happy. I think that she did get nervous as the engagement went on, because perhaps "magic happiness" had not happened as she'd hoped would happen. C was busy with his work, she was stuck in the palace not sure of what she should be doing, and I think she had niggling doubts about Camilla and about everything in general... but not REALLY BIG ones.. I think HE began to have doubts too, perhaps he was getting inkling that Diana was easily stressed, that she was more highly strung than was a good idea for someone in the public eye... And perhaps he was getting inklings about the bulimia and the not really sharing his hobbies. But once they were engaged, that was it. They couldn’t break it off unless something absolutely major happened... so I think that it is not fair to say that they “went ahead with it, even though they were both feeling that it wasn’t the right thing for them.”
True both of them had some choice in the matter, but it was a rather restricted choice. Charles probably knew he was not deeply in love with Diana, but he had to get married. It was his duty and he was not unwilling to do that duty… and he had a very limited range of women whom he could marry. She was probably more unaware, she was young and very childish in some ways, but she had a strong psychological drive pushing her towards wanting to marry. However, I think that they had a genuine feeling for each other, at first. He was fond of her, believed they were likely to be a good pairing – was very attracted to her... I think he was touched and flattered that she seemed to be so in love with him, and he was willing to try and put Camilla out of his mind completely and concentrate on his new wife and “grow to love her!”
  #1557  
Old 06-09-2016, 09:26 AM
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But they believed that they wanted the same things...
Hence why it was a mistake. When you marry you should be sure that the other person is one hundred percent on the same page. Like a lot of couples, they ignored the bad signs because they wanted it to work and thought the good would outweigh the bad. That's why the responsibility lies with them. It's nothing that doesn't happen to millions of people around the world.
  #1558  
Old 06-09-2016, 09:59 PM
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Hence why it was a mistake. When you marry you should be sure that the other person is one hundred percent on the same page. Like a lot of couples, they ignored the bad signs because they wanted it to work and thought the good would outweigh the bad. That's why the responsibility lies with them. It's nothing that doesn't happen to millions of people around the world.
True, people Do maybe ignore warning signs. BUt IMO you can't be sure of anything. They coudld have discussed the issues - and been clear on everything, but most couples dont discuss everything before they get married. And even if you do, there's no guarantee that you will feel the same as you did pre marriage, when you are actually married. I think that Diana was so good at making herself beleive things, that she could have talked it all over with C before the marriage and still only realised on her honeymoon or later that what she said then had no bearing on what she felt post marriage.
I have alwasy felt since I began to realise that the marriage thing wasn't Bad Charles V Good Diana, that the whole problem realy hit Di on her honeymoon in Scotland.
She had problems on the Brittaina bit of it, She and Charles allegedly argued about Cam, she siad he phoned her.. she was a bit taken aback I think at having the Navy with them..and "Divine Servic on Sunday!"
but i thtink that they were swimming, saling in a nice climate and perhaps they were getitng used ot one another albeit she was becoming more bulimic. BUT when they went ot Scotland al the problems just flared up. I beleive diana realised then that this was not a game, this was for life. She was married to a man who seemed rather busy iwht his own life, who wasn't unaffectionate but was busy with his work and on holdiay he had his hobbies. And she didnt want ot join in iwht tehm. She had to join in with the RF but she found them peculiar and cold and over formal. She was bored wiht the shooting, Didn't feel as close to Charles, began to beleive he was off phoning Cam every chance he got.. and she got upset and could not amuse herself when Chas went out shooting. and I think it really hit her then with a thump that she didn't like this cold rainy place or the cold family.. but she was stuck with it. She couldnt get out. She loved Charles but she wasn't sure if he loved her. He seemed to be able to have fun without her, but she was dependent on him.

And I think she didnt' really find HIM all that interesting close up...In theory she admired him being so "clever" but in pracitce he was talking about stuff she didn't understand or care about then...All the problems were really coming to the boil, but perhaps they found it hard to talk about them. He coudln't understand why she had changed, and I suspect that if he asked her, she got weepy and angry.. Then she was sent to a psychiatrist, got on "massive doses of valium" and I think that mabybe she got pregnant becuase she hoped that that would cement the marriage..give her something speical of her own to focus on, and bring Chas closer to her
  #1559  
Old 06-12-2016, 04:24 AM
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I agree like waiting till you love someone. Charles didn't he had a lot of lovers


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How do you know he didn't love them? IIRC he siad that he fell in love quite quickly and Im sure he was a bit in love iwth many of his girlfrends. Anyway, in the West, most people have relationships before they marry, unless they have religious or moral objections or dont find anyone suitable. its part of getting to know "what's out there" before you commit to marriage... I think that it was one of the problems of the C and Di marriage, that she had little experience of dating and men, and because of the "C's wife has to be a virgin" scenario meant that there was going to be a large age gap between him and his bride.

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Originally Posted by ROYAL NORWAY View Post
As fo

And when it comes to the divorce in 1996: I saw a pretty reliable documentary for approximately 10 years ago wher a former staffer said that the Queen was persuaded by a bishop who was close to Charles (I don't remember whom) to agree on a divorce.

T

The same was also said by a former private/press secretary on the BBC during the Diamond Jubilee in 2012.

I don't understand what I'm doing on this thread, and I hope this is my last visit to the Diana section of the forum.
I do find it hard to beleive that the queen was persuaded by a bishop to agree to a divorce. I would imagine that she consulted the senior churchmen yes, but I find it hard to see that they would be saying "Ma'am we think they ought to divorce".
Even if they felt ti was for the best I'm sure that they would confine themselves to saying that the C Of E would be Ok with a divorce and would crown a divorced (and possibly remarried) Chas as King when the time came. Im sure the queen after Panorama had reached a point where she realised that the situaition of separated but not divorced was worse for the Monarchy than their finalising the end of the marriage. So problaby there were talks with lawyers and C of E and politicans and so on going on for some time, but I tink that Panorama was the final straw and HM could see that it was best to end the marriage and stop Diana from doing any more interviews, and make her sign a confidentiality clause in her divorce settlement.
  #1560  
Old 06-12-2016, 09:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Denville View Post
She had problems on the Brittaina bit of it, She and Charles allegedly argued about Cam, she siad he phoned her.. Didn't feel as close to Charles, began to beleive he was off phoning Cam every chance he got.. .
You are mixing your 'story'.

Michael Fawcett was supposed to have called Charles everyday while C&D were on their honeymoon. (At least according to Diana.)

Charles supposedly called Camilla when he was on his 'second' honeymoon in 1991. (According to Diana.)

Diana supposedly blamed Fawcett for her martial problems.

There are the 'secret audio' tape where Diana blames Fawcett and supposedly video tapes.

Quote:
She attributes much of the blame to Fawcett,,,,.and she complains that she and her husband can never talk like a normal married couple because Fawcett is always there "next to Charles."
Quote:
She reveals her "growing concern" about Prince Charles relationship with Michael Fawcett -- and how she believed it contributed to the end of her marriage
Quote:
He called Charles every day on honeymoon. Charles took the calls in a separate room. When Diana asked, she was told it was all to do with work.
Diana's secret tapes
Diana's Secret Agony over 'Sexless' Marriage
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