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  #2541  
Old 07-03-2017, 01:03 PM
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  #2542  
Old 07-03-2017, 01:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Osipi View Post
Yes. She turned 20 within the month of getting married. The courtship was short and if Bedell Smith is to be believed, Charles and Diana had 12 dates before getting engaged.

I don't think Diana could have been seen as a progressive, modern young woman that wanted to take on the world with both hands but was a rather lived a rather sheltered life that some young British aristocratic women did. She wasn't prepared to have a career and probably didn't want one nor was she prepared to take on a marriage that involved a very senior role in the BRF's "Firm". Its easy to believe that Diana's attitude towards love and marriage were basically straight out of a Barbara Cartland novel. The reality was quite an eye opener for her.
I think her age and sheltered life was an obstacle; the minute she hit the world, the press and public wanted her to be as perfectly intellectual as possible and apparently in the eyes of the editorials and press, she wasn't supposed to like fashion, she wasn't supposed to want to have fun, and she wasn't supposed to enjoy jewels. There was a lot of pressure on her to be as non-frivolous as possible and she was pilloried for being young and wanting to wear nice stuff and indulge in jewels. I also think that it was unfair that she was expected by the press to be some kind of fully mature icon before she was ready. When it was complained about how she didn't have too much to say, I thought that was unfair since she was a kid who was expected to be more than any mentally healthy person could be.

She viewed the world in a limited way mainly since she was happy in her own immediate set and sphere and that was her right. The issue is that it wasn't the amount of duties or the amount of pressure, but the expectations that all the wrong people had of her. Too many self-appointed mandarins of culture and other self-appointed experts of royal dignity were bashing her nonstop about being a kid, being happy, being playful. Apparently the only way to royal dignity is being miserable, dressing horrendously, and being snotty and uncouth according to Diana's relentless critics. Dressing nicely and putting in an effort to make a memorable favorable impression is a sign fo respect for the hosts.
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  #2543  
Old 07-03-2017, 02:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Dee Anna View Post
My thoughts exactly! The last thing any twenty year old wanted back in the eighties was to be married - socialising, relationships yes! But not the serious stuff. Plenty of time for that.

Wasn't Diana only 19 when she got engaged? Not exactly a lot of time to have held down several jobs before embarking on a relationship that led to marriage at just turned twenty.

Here in the States in the 1980's, a woman of Diana's wealth and family prominence would be in college at the age of 20 with marriage a few years in the future.
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  #2544  
Old 07-03-2017, 02:59 PM
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Hmmm teenager in the 80's , graduated in 84 ....and there were quite a few girls in that age range getting married. 20 wasn't an uncommon age to marry.


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  #2545  
Old 07-03-2017, 03:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Leopoldine View Post
Here in the States in the 1980's, a woman of Diana's wealth and family prominence would be in college at the age of 20 with marriage a few years in the future.
But unlikely to have been able to fulfill the purity requirement...
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  #2546  
Old 07-03-2017, 03:24 PM
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The purity requirement...much has been made about that (even back when they were 'dating')...but I'm not sure how real or how much of an issue that would of been.


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  #2547  
Old 07-03-2017, 05:48 PM
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I think her age and sheltered life was an obstacle; the minute she hit the world, the press and public wanted her to be as perfectly intellectual as possible and apparently in the eyes of the editorials and press, she wasn't supposed to like fashion, she wasn't supposed to want to have fun, and she wasn't supposed to enjoy jewels. There was a lot of pressure on her to be as non-frivolous as possible and she was pilloried for being young and wanting to wear nice stuff and indulge in jewels. I also think that it was unfair that she was expected by the press to be some kind of fully mature icon before she was ready. When it was complained about how she didn't have too much to say, I thought that was unfair since she was a kid who was expected to be more than any mentally healthy person could be.

She viewed the world in a limited way mainly since she was happy in her own immediate set and sphere and that was her right. The issue is that it wasn't the amount of duties or the amount of pressure, but the expectations that all the wrong people had of her. Too many self-appointed mandarins of culture and other self-appointed experts of royal dignity were bashing her nonstop about being a kid, being happy, being playful. Apparently the only way to royal dignity is being miserable, dressing horrendously, and being snotty and uncouth according to Diana's relentless critics. Dressing nicely and putting in an effort to make a memorable favorable impression is a sign fo respect for the hosts.
I don't know where all this 'press and public didn't want her to dress well, have great jewels or enjoy herself' comes from. From what I remember, and I lived through those years, it was directly the opposite.

The Press, newspapers, magazines, and the public took a very great interest in Diana's appearance. If she wore a new outfit or had a new hairstyle or wore beautiful jewellery it was featured on the front pages of newspapers and weekly magazines had pages on her fashions, complete with glossy photos. People bought these magazines in their millions. Diana was regarded as a fashion icon later and as an ambassador of British fashion all the time.

Nor can I ever remember her being under constant attack for her manners or demeanour. People in the early years thought she was very young and very sweet, lovely in fact. A few intellectuals who met her thought she was lacking in serious conversation, but by and large, they kept these thoughts to themselves, and these only came out in published diaries and memoirs after her death.

There was a period of criticism after Sarah Ferguson married Andrew and she and Diana were silly and poked a courtier's behind with their umbrellas at Ascot one year, but that criticism was muttered comments by older courtiers etc not the press or the people as a general rule.

She also came under attack from the Press for behaviour in the last couple of years of her life, but before that there was certainly no attempt by Press and public to criticise Diana for having fun. People used to love seeing her beaming and laughing.

There may have been a difference in the age of marriage on both sides of the Atlantic. However, from my own experience in England I can't ever remember anyone, aristo or not, getting wed as young as Diana. I used to take a look at aristocratic weddings too and it was exactly the same. Neither of Diana's sisters married at twenty. That sort of marital age was more indicative of the 1950's in Britain (Diana's mother's generation) than the 1980's.
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  #2548  
Old 07-04-2017, 04:52 AM
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Well her parents can't have thought she was too young since she moved into her mother's (mostly unused) flat at 17 years old. She shared the flat with friends but it was not small and not dingy but somewhat grand and in an enviable area of town. Diana's mother bought her her own flat for her 18th birthday

So there you have it, on her own, unchaperoned in any way living in London at 17.)

Diana’s Flat ~ Coleherne Court, London – My Blog
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  #2549  
Old 07-04-2017, 05:01 AM
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Yes, but Diana was living with friends, none of whom were married at 20, and she certainly wasn't living in a grand style, more little restaurants, the cinema and going to parties with friends. She cleaned for friends and her sister, looked after a child and did housework and then worked at a child nursery.

Diana and her friends weren't holding grand dinner parties or soirées or balls, none of which she was particularly used to before she married. There would have been the odd dinner party at Althorp during Raine's time, and a house party or two but nothing particularly flash.

She certainly didn't hostess grand parties, and she taught children ballet for a short while until she injured her leg and never went back.
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  #2550  
Old 07-04-2017, 03:52 PM
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Does anyone besides me find it strange that a 17-year-old was living in her own apartment in London, even if she was with friends? I suppose that having her maternal grandmother and her older sisters* in London was a mitigating factor. She could contact family if she needed them.

*Sarah was living in the country after her marriage, I assume.

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Well her parents can't have thought she was too young since she moved into her mother's (mostly unused) flat at 17 years old. She shared the flat with friends but it was not small and not dingy but somewhat grand and in an enviable area of town. Diana's mother bought her her own flat for her 18th birthday

So there you have it, on her own, unchaperoned in any way living in London at 17.)

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  #2551  
Old 07-04-2017, 04:48 PM
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I the press and public wanted her to be as perfectly intellectual as possible and apparently in the eyes of the editorials and press, she wasn't supposed to like fashion, she wasn't supposed to want to have fun, and she wasn't supposed to enjoy jewels. fo respect for the hosts.
Where on earth was she "expected to be intellectual" or pilloried for liking fashion or jewels?

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Originally Posted by Curryong View Post
I don't know where all this 'press and public didn't want her to dress well, have great jewels or enjoy herself' comes from. From what I remember, and I lived through those years, it was directly the opposite.

as an ambassador of British fashion all the time.

Nor can I ever remember her being under constant attack for her manners or demeanour. People in the early years thought she was very young and very sweet, lovely in fact. A few intellectuals who met her thought she was lacking in serious conversation, but by and large, they kept these thoughts to themselves, and these only came out in published diaries and memoirs after her death.


There may have been a difference in the age of marriage on both sides of the Atlantic. However, from my own experience in England I can't ever remember anyone, aristo or not, getting wed as young as Diana. I used to take a look at aristocratic weddings too and it was exactly the same. Neither of Diana's sisters married at twenty. That sort of marital age was more indicative of the 1950's in Britain (Diana's mother's generation) than the 1980's.
there were plenty of women/girls who married as young or younger than her.. but I agree that girls of her class, while they were "bred to marry" still didn't usually marry at 19 or 20... problaby more like abt 23 or 4.
but I agree also that I can't remember Diana being attacked over "not being intellectual". For gods sake she was MEGAAA popular. The press went mad over her clothes, her looks, her hairstyle and her jewellery. The public liked to look at pictures of her. She was seen as sweet, fun, light hearted, lovable and fond of kids. the fact that she had no O levels and liked to dress prettily and was into all that stuff, was certainly not held against her by the public or most of the press. After years of the queen and Anne, who dress dully and were certainly not "charming" or uplifting, Diana was a delight to photographers etc.
I have no idea where this came form that she was attacked for being light and "not serious" in her younger days and for liking ot dress fashionably.
There were some journalists who did feel that she was sweet and nice, but she wasn't very clever and that "she didn't make speeches" or do very heavy stuff, and left all that in the early years to Charles..
And as she grew older, she did become more serious about her charity wrok, learned more about issues and tried to "make a difference" with what she did as a royal. but she still looked pretty and dressed well. And she was certianly not attacked for this.

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Originally Posted by Mermaid1962 View Post
Does anyone besides me find it strange that a 17-year-old was living in her own apartment in London, even if she was with friends? I suppose that having her maternal grandmother and her older sisters* in London was a mitigating factor. She could contact family if she needed them.

.
why would they? I was living in a shared house at a little older..
I would find it strange if a young woman was NOT living in a flat, rather than at home...
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  #2552  
Old 07-04-2017, 05:03 PM
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Some commentators mentioned how 'there is more to being a princess than fashion' and there were criticisms sent to the palace about how Diana wasn't being substantial enough.
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  #2553  
Old 07-04-2017, 05:03 PM
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Originally Posted by MARG View Post
Well her parents can't have thought she was too young since she moved into her mother's (mostly unused) flat at 17 years old. She shared the flat with friends but it was not small and not dingy but somewhat grand and in an enviable area of town. Diana's mother bought her her own flat for her 18th birthday

So there you have it, on her own, unchaperoned in any way living in London at 17.)

Diana’s Flat ~ Coleherne Court, London – My Blog
Sorry but what is your point? She was living in her own flat? that didn't mean she was out every night or hostessing society dos. She was living a quiet life wit her girlfriends, mixing with a small circle of friends, going to the country at weekends.. there is a big leap between that and "high society" life, of the kind that Raine Spencer went in for and which was beginning to die out a bit. and there's a lot of difference between living in your own flat and assuming the responsilbiites of marriage and motherhood.

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Some commentators mentioned how 'there is more to being a princess than fashion' and there were criticisms sent to the palace about how Diana wasn't being substantial enough.
Who? Did these people really expect a girl of her age, and education, to be ? Well what exactly did these people want her to be doing?
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  #2554  
Old 07-04-2017, 05:17 PM
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What a slacker she was! 19 and no career yet! LOL


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  #2555  
Old 07-04-2017, 07:04 PM
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My thoughts exactly! The last thing any twenty year old wanted back in the eighties was to be married - socialising, relationships yes! But not the serious stuff. Plenty of time for that.

Wasn't Diana only 19 when she got engaged? Not exactly a lot of time to have held down several jobs before embarking on a relationship that led to marriage at just turned twenty.
I cant quite see how one could say that no 20 year old wanted to be married. Many girls married at that age or younger. Many girls wanted to be married by that age. Diana Did want to marry young, she wanted the security of a serious and permanent relationship. She wanted a family and she did not want sexual relationships without commitment.
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Old 07-04-2017, 07:18 PM
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Sorry but what is your point? She was living in her own flat? that didn't mean she was out every night or hostessing society dos. She was living a quiet life wit her girlfriends, mixing with a small circle of friends, going to the country at weekends.. there is a big leap between that and "high society" life, of the kind that Raine Spencer went in for and which was beginning to die out a bit. and there's a lot of difference between living in your own flat and assuming the responsilbiites of marriage and motherhood.
As to why Diana was living in a shared flat in London at 17, I think you've hit on the magic word. Raine.

At this point of her life, she wasn't away at school anywhere and if the stories are to be believed, hell would freeze over before she'd live under the same roof as Raine Spencer. Frances lived in a too remote part of the UK that would appeal to a young girl such as Diana was. London was the obvious place that Diana would have wanted to be at that time.

Its just logic and putting two and two together that adds up to placing Diana starting her own life in London.
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  #2557  
Old 07-04-2017, 07:20 PM
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All I can say is that wanting to be married or getting married at twenty wasn't the norm among people I knew back in the day in Britain. None of Diana's flatmates were married at that age, nor did any of Charles's girlfriends choose to marry early.

Diana's sisters didn't marry at twenty and my bet is, though I haven't done a survey, that if you looked at the average age of aristocratic brides of the late 1970's/early 1980s you wouldn't find too many who were engaged at 19 and married at 20. Nor do I believe that 20 was the average age of brides in that era. Diana married at that age because of her special circumstances, including, as you say, her great need for security.

Judging by the charts given below 23 was the average age for brides in Britain in 1978, and from then in there was a steady rise upwards.

http://www.parliament.uk/business/pu...s-settle-down/
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  #2558  
Old 07-04-2017, 07:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Osipi View Post
As to why Diana was living in a shared flat in London at 17, I think you've hit on the magic word. Raine.

At .

Its just logic and putting two and two together that adds up to placing Diana starting her own life in London.
I know she didn't like Raine, but I can't see that dislike of Raine was the main thing that made her have the perfectly normael desire of a young girl of her age, t get out from the parental roof and have her own place. And of course she would live in London, where else would a young upper class girl go, unless she really loved country life and preferred to stay there . when I was her age, I was longing to get my own flat and live in a city...

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All I can say is that wanting to be married or getting married at twenty wasn't the norm among people I knew back in the day in Britain. None of Diana's flatmates were married at that age, nor did any of Charles's girlfriends choose to marry early.

Diana's sisters didn't marry at twenty and my bet is, though I haven't done a Judging by the charts given below 23 was the average age for brides in Britain in 1978, and from then in there was a steady rise upwards.

Have kids, settle down - UK Parliament
no she married at 20 because she wanted an early marriage and because Charles needed an inexperienced girl with no past. So such a girl wasn't likey to be much older than 20.
but if 23 was the average age, then there must have been many who married in their teens
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Old 07-04-2017, 08:10 PM
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Danae Brook the writer and broadcaster, who lived a floor below Diana at Coleherne Court, described the block of flats as being 'like a club' and 'the sort of place parents felt safe leaving their daughters'. Tina Brown in her biography of Diana writes of it as being a debby and Sloane Ranger sort of place, where young upperclass girls could be parked by their parents while they learned a few office skills like shorthand and typing in case they got a job.

Her three flatmates also appear to have been Sloanes, wearing 'Sloane uniform' like jumpers with tweed skirts and pie crust collar blouses, who went out to spaghetti restaurants and parties and to the country at weekends. It was a peaceful and happy environment for Diana,without stress and with jolly company.
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Old 07-04-2017, 08:51 PM
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It was the perfect solution for Diana at the time. After being in boarding schools for quite a few years, sharing a flat with girlfriends was different yet similar. I don't see her wanting to live with Johnny and Raine or even with Peter and Frances. Living with parents was alien to her by that time. Parents were to visit.
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