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  #1201  
Old 07-21-2016, 05:31 PM
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Perhaps she just wanted to give titles from the fringes of the UK to her sons.. and some of the Royal dukedoms were in use, when her first children were born, so she could not use them.
And it would NOT be a good idea to use Connaught again!!
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  #1202  
Old 07-21-2016, 07:12 PM
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Yes, I said that 'Ireland is out' as far as today's royals are concerned. Of course, the first four sons of King George III were dead, including her own father, plus her cousin Charlotte, for Victoria to have become Queen at all. None of them had surviving issue.

She could have honoured her father, I suppose, by giving 'Kent' to one of her younger sons but she was very sentimental about her father's memory and wouldn't have done it.

She made a deliberate decision not to give York to her second son Alfred, I believe, as she wanted to honour Scotland. She and Albert were always fond of Scotland though Balmoral came later, and there was quite a cult of things Scottish at the time due to the popularity of the novels of Sir Walter Scott. So I think naming him after the Scottish capital was a deliberate choice.

The Dukedom of Albany had previously been given by several of the Hanoverians in conjunction with the Dukedom of York. None of the previous holders had left surviving children. Leopold, Queen Victoria's fourth and last son did and the Dukedom went down after his premature death to his son Chariie, who later inherited the reigning Dukedom of Saxe Coburg Gotha in Germany, where he lived for his adult life and became a Nazi.
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  #1203  
Old 07-22-2016, 09:00 PM
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Yup, he had sons, as I recall but only one of them made a non morganatic marriage,. and I shold not think that the tile would be restored. I just meant that some people dotn seem to understand that Ireland as a whole is not longer part of the UK and so Irish place names are out. I remember when I was a kid, the Duchess of Gloucesters son had the title Earl of Ulster, and that was a bit awkward
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  #1204  
Old 07-22-2016, 09:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Denville View Post
Yup, he had sons, as I recall but only one of them made a non morganatic marriage,. and I shold not think that the tile would be restored. I just meant that some people dotn seem to understand that Ireland as a whole is not longer part of the UK and so Irish place names are out. I remember when I was a kid, the Duchess of Gloucesters son had the title Earl of Ulster, and that was a bit awkward

Earl of Ulster is still one of the Duke of Gloucester's subsidiary titles and is used by courtesy by his eldest son. And why shouldn't it be? Ulster is primarily in Northern Ireland, which is part of the U.K.

William and Andrew both have Irish territorial designations in their titles; William as Baron Carrickfergus and Andrew as Baron Killyleagh. It's fair to expect that Harry will have his own Irish barony one day.
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  #1205  
Old 07-22-2016, 09:53 PM
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Last I looked Northern Ireland is still part of the UK. Unless I missed a vote And the Duke's son is still the earl of Ulster. It is common for a subsidiary title to be Irish or Scottish, or both. A senior title being Irish I doubt will see again but William is Baron Carrickfergus. Andrew is Baron Killyleagh, The Duke of Kent is Baron Downpatrick. Like Ulster, all of them are in NI so nothing awkward.Connaught is not.
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  #1206  
Old 07-22-2016, 10:15 PM
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When I said 'Ireland is out' in my former post I meant the Republic of Ireland. I know that Northern Ireland is still part of the U.K. So does Denville.

I see every nuance is going to have to be explained when having a conversation in future. As Denville lived in the Republic for many years I'd guarantee she knows all about Northern Ireland.
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  #1207  
Old 07-22-2016, 11:15 PM
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Might Prince Henry be created Earl of Holland? The name Holland in the title refers to the area of Lincolnshire known as Holland, not The Netherlands.
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  #1208  
Old 07-22-2016, 11:37 PM
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I think that title would be very confusing to many Brits who don't differentiate between 'Holland' and the Netherlands. A lot would say "Why is Harry being given a Dutch title?"
Anyway, as the only other son of the Prince of Wales I think Harry is almost certain to get a Dukedom. He's not in the same place as Edward, who was given an earldom to be getting on with, but who will, in the fullness of time, become Duke of Edinburgh, as per the Queen's wishes.
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  #1209  
Old 07-23-2016, 12:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Curryong View Post
When I said 'Ireland is out' in my former post I meant the Republic of Ireland. I know that Northern Ireland is still part of the U.K. So does Denville.

I see every nuance is going to have to be explained when having a conversation in future. As Denville lived in the Republic for many years I'd guarantee she knows all about Northern Ireland.
Is there a bio thread to tell me a list of countries a poster has lived in Because obviously I should be aware a poster from London is from Ireland . I mean quite clearly a moron who missed it. I apologize for thee grevious error of not knowing the backgrounds of a postere

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some people dotn seem to understand that Ireland as a whole is not longer part of the UK and so Irish place names are out. I remember when I was a kid, the Duchess of Gloucesters son had the title Earl of Ulster, and that was a bit awkward

Ireland as a whole refers to the island, both countries. So one should comprehend why 2 posters (ish said the same) had the impression. Add to that 'Ulster is akward' as 'Irish titles are out'
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  #1210  
Old 07-23-2016, 12:32 AM
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Originally Posted by CyrilVladisla View Post
Might Prince Henry be created Earl of Holland? The name Holland in the title refers to the area of Lincolnshire known as Holland, not The Netherlands.
While like other royals dukes he will have an Earl title, it is more likely his Earl will be Scottish. Duke X (English) Earl X (Scottish) Baron (N Ireland). If Sussex, they cant use the historical (well the one duke) subsidiary as they are used as Andrew's.

If they go Clarence, the subsidiary title of the last is out as it is in the Irish republic (Athlone). Instead of Duke of Clarence And Avondale, could do Duke of Clarencee. earl of Avondale. William IV was Clarence/St Andrews but the second is used by Kent.

Or they could create/choose new subsidiary of course. There are not many extinct Scottish earldoms
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  #1211  
Old 07-23-2016, 02:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Countessmeout View Post
Last I looked Northern Ireland is still part of the UK. Unless I missed a vote And the Duke's son is still the earl of Ulster. It is common for a subsidiary title to be Irish or Scottish, or both. A senior title being Irish I doubt will see again but William is Baron Carrickfergus. Andrew is Baron Killyleagh, The Duke of Kent is Baron Downpatrick. Like Ulster, all of them are in NI so nothing awkward.Connaught is not.
You are not aware of Irish history then? that a large proportion of the population of N Ireland do not wish to be part of the UK, or that in fact there are only 6 counties of Ulster wchh are part of the UK?

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Originally Posted by Curryong View Post
When I said 'Ireland is out' in my former post I meant the Republic of Ireland. I know that Northern Ireland is still part of the U.K. So does Denville.

I see every nuance is going to have to be explained when having a conversation in future. As Denville lived in the Republic for many years I'd guarantee she knows all about Northern Ireland.
Thank you currying. I am actually Irish by birth.. I mentioned the Connaught thing because recently, on another forum, soemone mentioned Connaught as a possible royal dukedom so I realised that some people DONT know that the Republic of Ireland is a separate country and that there is a history of conflict, which would make it impossible to use a designation from the Republic's territory and even N Irish titles can be controversial
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  #1212  
Old 07-23-2016, 02:56 AM
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No, wrong I simply comprehend the difference between political sentiment and historical fact. I deal in the latter, While my specialty is Scottish ( a term short of a masters) I am no light weight when it comes to Irish history (1/2 Irish, both North and republic, 1/4 English, other 1/4 been over here for centuries, no one is sure original).

North may not want to be, but for better or worse, they are the UK. That is historical and current fact. So no, 'all Ireland is not part of the UK' is bull.

Ish said the exact same thing where is your accusations to ish's lack of knowledge????
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  #1213  
Old 07-23-2016, 03:12 AM
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All Ireland is NOT part of the UK. the republic of Ireland has not been part of the UK for many years...Only the 6 counties are part of the UK and that may well change because as you know a large part of the population do not wish for this.. and the feeling is very strong. regardless of the rights or wrongs of it, it seems insensitive to me, to give a title that is going to cause controversy..

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Originally Posted by Curryong View Post
Yes, I.

The Dukedom of Albany had previously been given by several of the Hanoverians in conjunction with the Dukedom of York. None of the previous holders had left surviving children. Leopold, Queen Victoria's fourth and last son did and the Dukedom went down after his premature death to his son Chariie, who later inherited the reigning Dukedom of Saxe Coburg Gotha in Germany, where he lived for his adult life and became a Nazi.
Re Albany would it be possible for the dispute over the title to be settled so that it would become free again? Leopold's family inherited the Duchy of Saxe coburg and have now I imagine passed out of enlgish life, and are presumably private citzens..
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  #1214  
Old 07-23-2016, 07:04 AM
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The Head of the House of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha at the moment is HRH Andreas, Prince of S.C. and G. He's first cousin to the present King of Sweden and often pops up at family events (weddings etc) there. He was brought up in New Orleans after his parents divorced and his mother moved to the US. The family still owns castles, estates and property in Germany and Austria and Andreas administers them.

Under the Titles Deprivations Act of 1917 the legitimate lineal male heir could petition the British Crown for restoration of the peerage, but, as you say, most of Charlie's sons and grandsons married morganatically. The last one eligible to petition was Friedrich Josias, Andreas's father, but he made no attempt to do so before he died in 1998.

That's a real shame because again it's an old title associated (in previous creations) with the Scottish throne, and the British one. It sounds lovely too, and it would be suitable for Harry if it weren't in the outer darkness in abeyance. Too many of these fine old Dukedoms will no longer be associated with the British throne within a couple of generations from now (Kent, Gloucester) and here is a perfectly good one, connected to a Scottish locale, unable to be used.
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  #1215  
Old 07-23-2016, 08:20 AM
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I have a question. The Duke of Albany is a British peerage. There is no such thing as a morganatic marriage in the UK. So why if the male line legitimate descent of Prince Leopold is a product of a morganatic marriage does it matter? Would not UK rules and the Letters Patent apply? As long as he is male line and not born out of wedlock, he should be still eligible to apply?


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  #1216  
Old 07-23-2016, 08:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Denville View Post
All Ireland is NOT part of the UK. the republic of Ireland has not been part of the UK for many years...Only the 6 counties are part of the UK and that may well change because as you know a large part of the population do not wish for this.. and the feeling is very strong. regardless of the rights or wrongs of it, it seems insensitive to me, to give a title that is going to cause controversy..

As it relates to the issue of giving Henry an Irish title. Can you please provide me with some actual statistics that suggest Northern Ireland, would like to leave the United Kingdom?

Might I add that 6 counties of Ulster are UK and 3 are ROI. More is UK than ROI.

Having an Irish Baronetcy is tradition, and I doubt it'll change.
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  #1217  
Old 07-23-2016, 08:45 AM
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I don't remember massive outrage over Baron Carrickfergus being created 5 years ago for William.


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  #1218  
Old 07-23-2016, 08:45 AM
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I said that a large part of the population of N Ireland, would like to leave. Im not going to get into further argument about this, since It seems to annoy people and Im not here to get into rows, but to take my mind off a lot of worries, by a bit of amusing discussion...
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  #1219  
Old 07-23-2016, 11:35 AM
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As far as the Dukedom of Albany is concerned, from all I've read the devil seems to be in the detail, that is the fine print of the 1917 Titles Deprivation Act. It appears that for decades the Princes of Saxe-Coburg Gotha were more than welcome to apply for a restoration of their Dukedom of Albany.

However their own House rules prevented several of them from doing so as they had contracted morganatic marriages, which meant that they had to give up their dynastic rights as heirs (to Saxe Coburg Gotha.)

The only one who didn't, Friedrich Josias, contracted an unequal marriage not a morganatic one, and later Andreas did the same (that is, his father gave him permission to wed.)

Neither of these gentlemen showed (have shown) any interest in retrieving their long-lost British Dukedom of Albany, but apparently the way the 1917 Act was written precludes anyone else from getting it either.

I suppose if Harry suddenly showed a huge interest in the Albany dukedom just before marrying, the Queen could have the 1917 Act amended, but at the moment it seems to be a case of letting sleeping dogs lie. As I said before it's a shame as this is a grand old peerage associated with the kingdom of Scotland.
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  #1220  
Old 07-23-2016, 11:59 AM
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I do wonder why parliament doesn't just revoke the original Letters Patent that created these titles in the first place.

Realistically, no British government is going to entertain a petition to have a Dukedom restored, so why not put an end to them.

I suppose though, given a Dukedom is only given to a member of the royal family, having the titles in suspended animation is just as good for the government.

It looks like Sussex for Harry, unless he decides to get a little creative.
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