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  #461  
Old 10-24-2012, 04:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Sun Lion View Post
Do the Danes criticize Mary's accent or is it more people on forums? (I've seen it mentioned for a long time on the internet.)

No Aussie expects people to talk with a Strine accent when they move here - even after living here all their life. You'll be asked about yourself and where you're from if you have an accent, and a genuine interest will be taken in you - (probably because although we're a multi-cultural society, we still feel everything is "happening" somewhere else, and we're tucked away at the bottom of the world missing out on it all - whatever "it all" might be.)

If there is criticisim from the Danish media, or Danish population, surely they need to look outward a bit more and see the world is coming to their door and people from elsewhere will never speak their language as they do - and may never grasp all the nuances of the grammar.

An accent shows some-one's individuality and history.

Don't ever loose your Aussie accent Mary - after all, Fred speaks English with a Danish accent when he comes here.

Cheers Everyone, Sun Lion.
There is very little criticism of Mary's Danish and her accent here.
She is seen as speaking a far better Danish than her father-in-law and some also claims she speaks better Danish than her husband, who as you know has a tendency to be an akward public speaker.
Mary's Danish is excellent. She does have a distinct accent which she, I think, is unlikely to lose. And she sometimes makes the grammatical and pronounciation mistakes that are typical for English-speakers. So Mary is doing very well. - Not least considering that she is not a natural IMO when it comes to learning languages, so what she has accomplished is hard work.
Marie, is obviously more adept at learning a new language, and that shows. Her understanding of spoken Danish (the big nightmare) is excellent, she is still sometimes slightly hesitant when it comes to answering questions, as if she is mentally phrasing her words before speaking. - On other occasions she's babbling happily along.
Her accent, I think, is less pronounced than Mary's and she speaks very clearly. She is still very careful with her prononciation.

As for accepting. Well, that's the difference between a multicultural country and a tribe. We Danes are a tribe and even though we are very hesitant to say it, we are pretty proud of our country, heritage, culture and history. And in many ways we still have the mentallity of a large village. Strangers and newcomers are welcome but they need to adapt to the ways of the tribe and learn the lingo of the tribe in order to be accepted.
Prince Henrik has really only been accepted recently and mostly because he is a colorful character. Mainly because he spoke and still speak with very heavy accent and constantly make basic grammatical mistakes. That is seen as arrogant and disrespectful by us, the members of the tribe, he chose to settle among. So he had a pretty hard time.
Mary and Marie have not made that mistake.
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  #462  
Old 10-24-2012, 05:35 AM
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A question to the Danes here, how was queen Ingrid's Danish accent? I would guess that it was easier for her to learn the Danish vocabulary than for the newer members of the DRF, as Swedish and Danish are closely related, but how about her accent and grammar?
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  #463  
Old 10-24-2012, 08:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Muhler View Post
"There is very little criticism of Mary's Danish and her accent here.
As for accepting. Well, that's the difference between a multicultural country and a tribe. We Danes are a tribe and even though we are very hesitant to say it, we are pretty proud of our country, heritage, culture and history. And in many ways we still have the mentallity of a large village. Strangers and newcomers are welcome but they need to adapt to the ways of the tribe and learn the lingo of the tribe in order to be accepted."
Hi Muhler, thank you for the insight into the Danes being a "tribe".

I had thought, maybe it is different to be in a country surrounded by many other countries, and to have a history of many wars around you and therefore your language, culture and customs etc, become very important to you as a means of surviving all that, but I didn't know the Danish people saw themselves in that way.

Very different to Australia where I would say the main feeling is one of "a fair go", (that is, get on with your own life, and let everyone else do what they want to do with theirs), and as I wrote somewhere, a sense that we're a bit out of what's going on in the rest of the world, being so far from everything. (New Zealanders probably feel the same, that is why so many young Aussies and Kiwis travel before they settle down - just to see what else is going on in the rest of the world.)

I don't think Aussies see themselves as one big whole.

There are such differences between the different states and between those living in the big cities of Sydney and Melbourne vs the smaller cities, and then the regional and country areas. The lifestyles are very different.

Our country covers such different climates zones too, tropical to temperate and then the outback desert, and I think that influences our state characteristics as well.

Plus we have many nationalities here, and of course the original Australians, the Aborigines and Torres Strait Islanders, so we're quite a mix when all is said and done.

Thanks again Muhler - and I've always enjoyed your translations posted on this forum, have been reading them for a while, though I've only just started posting.

(Some one from "New Idea" or "Womans Day" here in Oz should do a deal with the Danish mags and reprint their weekly Mary stories and pics here - good business for both sides I would have thought.)

Cheers, Sun Lion.
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  #464  
Old 10-24-2012, 10:10 AM
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I am new on this thread and new in general on TRF
I have read roughly the first pages but only really read the 25th page
and at least this one is pretty interesting
First of all, the opinions of the Danes are IMO the most important, they really can know best
I would critisize a lack of knowledge of the language but not an accent
Sun Lion from Australia says, ''after all, Fred speaks English with a Danish accent'' and Eden also from Australia says, ''amusing that most English speakers accept another English speaker with an accent etc. but we can't seem to grasp the difference between and accent and someone who doesn't have a good grasp of a language etc'' Bravo for both of you!
The insight Muhler, from Denmark, gave was significant and was very interesting for me, and concerning the 'tribe', I think there are many tribes all over Europe (the world)
At last, another response from Sun Lion to Muhler, saying ''maybe it is different to be in a country surrounded by many other countries etc.''
That gives me something to think about, I've lived in 5 different countries and speak 5,5 different languages, but I always lived in Europe and was therefore always surrounded by other countries and cultures, I never gave it a thought that coming from a country as Australia (amongst others) this feeling could be very different
A personal thought, every country on his own has so many different dialects and have different accents... where is the problem if a foreigner can't loose his own? Should he even?
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  #465  
Old 10-24-2012, 02:00 PM
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Well, Sun Lion and Teia.

It gets even more coplicated that this. The fierce feeling of belonging to a tribe is actually fairly recent.
Until 1848 Denmark was a mulitinational and mulitilingual realm.

I'd say the majority of present day Danes are not aware of this. The contemporary feeling is that we have always been Danes here in Denmark. And indeed we have, but we only constituted about three-fifths of the population of the realm that was Denmark.

In order to understand this there are three years you need to look at.
1658
1788
and 1848.

If you were somehow transported back to Copenhagen anno 1655, you would hear various dialects of Danish, which you would be forgiven for thinking were different languages! You would also hear a lot of German as one fifth of the entire population were from the duchies of Schleswig & Holstein (German spelling). You would hear Norwegian being spoken. Quite a few of our most distinguished Danish national heroes were Norwegian.
You would occasionally also hear Faeroese and Icelanders speaking "old Norse" and you would at that time hear Dutch. Dutch settlers were invited to Denmark to basically modernize the country and some of these families became very distinct. Like Meulengracht (a present day family, one of whom is a friend of M&F).
All these people would look puzzled at you if you told them they were Danes. They would certainly declare their allegiance to the Danish king and feel a strong connection to the realm called Denmark and many if not most probably had Danish relatives or were married to a Dane but they didn't consider themelves Danish.
Denmark was the realm not an ethnic people.
The ethnic Danes themselves would of course see themselves as Danes, but they might very well be married to say a German and have close friends who were from Norway.

Then in 1658 disaster struck. Denmark lost one of a countless wars to Sweden, and we lost the ancient Danish provinces of what is now southern Sweden. Lands that had always been ethnic Danish, and it's likely that the Danes originated from here.
It's difficult today to comprehend how traumatic that was. It was as if France invaded England and all the shires south of London were lost.
That conquest was followed by two more wars and a genuinely brutal ethnic cleansing and passification of the lost provinces in the following decades. Refugees streamed across to Zealand and Copenhagen in particular.
These refugees were ethnic Danes and the bitterness and indeed rage started in earnest the sense of nationalism that is a part of Danish national character today.

1788. For a few centuries the majority of Danis peasants had been "livegne" a kind of serfs. In order to prevent the most enterprising young men and young families from seeking their fortune elsewhere and thereby draining the agricultural workforce, a law was passed down ensuring that peasants were not allowed to leave the local area. They adhered to a specific noble estate for life. - It wasn't slavery, there was a good deal of social security involved in this as well, but that's another story.
In 1788 that was hopelesly oldfashioned and not in line with the humanist views that grew around that time. So Struensee (you know, from the recent movie) in one of his countless reforms abolished that.
That was pretty traumatic as well!
The majority of the population were peasants who lived in hamlets consisting of three, four or five farms with extended families with fields around. They would perhaps go to a market in the nearest town a couple of times a month, they would go to metropols like Copenhagen or Hamburg most likely once in their lives, if at all.
They were used to living among people they knew, who dressed like themselves, looked like themselves and behaved like themselves and not least spoke the same dialect. That felt safe, that felt right.
You could litterally by looking at how a person dressed and by listening to someone's dialect say exactly where that person came from, almost down to the individual parish. - That's why we have so many dialects here in DK and countless words for relatives.
That's also the source of the feeling of people should preferably speak and act like the rest of us.
After 1788 the individual pesants had to fend for themselves and the countryside changed from countless clusters of tiny villages to farms scattered all over the place, but the village mentality lingered on to this day.

1848. Denmark was to become a democracy by 1849. Absolutism was to be abolished and a new Constitution was being written. By then, (1814, DK was Napoleon's last ally) Denmark had "lost" Norway. (The Norweigians didn't become independant, they basically became a large Swedish province instead, but that's another story).
Denmark or rather the Danish realm now consisted of Iceland and the Faeroe Islands, Holsten, Slesvig (DK spelling) and of course Denmark itself.
To have different administrations and different legislation for all these areas of the realm was considered impractical and unecessary, why don't we create one legislation for the entire realm? And while we are at it, why not make Danish the official language? No way! They shouted down in Holstein & Schleswig, we are not Danish and we have never been Danish, we want this to remain a kind of union.
At the same time a nationalistic wave went through Europe and not least in Germany where there was a growing sense of belonging "wir sind ja doch alle Germanen" and Holstein and Schleswig were attracted, because that was were the action and opportunities was.
Well, tempers flared and that led to the First Schleswigan War. The Holstein and Schleswigan rebels lost and all what they had fought against was implemented.
That naturally led to the Second Schleswigan War in 1864, Denmark lost, and a third of the country was lost (they basically ended up as Preussian protectorates but that's also another story). A third of the country!
It was deeply traumatic! People had intermarried for centuries and now family members and friends had fought against each other in two wars.

That defeat infuenced the national character up until recently. It also meant that we became more introverted and much more nationalistic. We closed ranks and celebrated what was Danish, the language, the culture, the heritage and conviniently overlooked the fact that so many Danish icons were really German or Norwegian. That's where the present day feeling of what it is to be "Danish" was born.
That feeling is very much shown in our flag, Dannebrog. Until the start of the war in 1848 Dannebrog was only used by ships as identification and by the King's men, i.e. army and navy. But ordinary people began to wave Dannebrog, and even more enthusiastic than today (!) and that has now become one of our strongest national symbols.

- A long story, I know, but essential to really comprehend the Danish national character.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Meraude View Post
A question to the Danes here, how was queen Ingrid's Danish accent? I would guess that it was easier for her to learn the Danish vocabulary than for the newer members of the DRF, as Swedish and Danish are closely related, but how about her accent and grammar?
Perhaps others are better at answering that question as I only remember hearing Queen Ingrid speaking when she was old and her Danish was in my opinion flawless.

However, I remember what older relatives have told me about her. When she was a crown princess in the 1930's, Ingrid was not particularly popular.
She was a Swede, and if that wasn't bad enough, she appears to have had problems getting rid of her Swedish accent fast enough.
Then she was a little too correct and a little too formal. She was basically seen as somewhat arrogant. - Fitting in perfectly with all the stereotypes about the Swedes.
She also dressed a little too fancy and she wasn't seen as nearly as "folksy" as her husband and the rest of the DRF. - Interesting as King Christian X was anything but "folksy". He was in every way an army officer of the old school! Though he had a soft spot for Ingrid. (Does all the above ring a bell?)
My mother, who died many years ago, firmly believed the story about Queen Ingrid being a cleptomaniac. Even though she had a deep respect for Queen Ingrid for not least being the undisputed matriach of the DRF - and for dressing down Prince Henrik from time to time....
Whether the cleptomaniac story was true, a misunderstanding or simply a nasty rumour I don't know. Frederik was devoted to Queen Ingrid but I'm in no doubt that he was also a handful! I read a theory way back that marriage-problems can manifest themselves as cleptomania. I don't know. The rumour was apparantly widely believed.

Then WWII came and the DRF became a rallying point and that also changed the look on Ingrid and I think she was very much seen, perhaps not least by housewives back in the 50's and 60's, as the "rock of the family" and they could perhaps relate to her. So I believe she was in that strange way very much accepted by the women of the "tribe".
Queen Ingrid, ended up being the very definition of how a Queen should be in the minds of the Danes. Apparantly also to a very large degree by those who opposed the monarchy.
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  #466  
Old 10-24-2012, 05:13 PM
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Well, Sun Lion and Teia.
"It gets even more coplicated that this. The fierce feeling of belonging to a tribe is actually fairly recent.
Gosh Muhler - you must have stayed up all night - (or was it day time there?)

Thank you for this. I had no idea Denmark, and Scandinavia generally, had gone through so much turmoil. Truly a very different birth compared to Australia (and New Zealand).

I can understand better why "Danishness" is so important to your county men and women.

My view of your region has always been about the natural beauty of the landscape, the historic buildings, the Viking, Norse etc invaders of long-ago England and the modern clean design ethos coming out. I didn't know things had been so harsh and of all places in Europe, (and the rest of the world), your area always seemed so settled and peaceful, with productive people happily getting on with life without any big worries amongst pretty buildings and strong institutions - such as the Monarchy. (I guess that is why the DRF is so supported - another pillar of the "Danishness" of Denmark.)

Thank for your efforts in letting us get a deeper insight into your nation. It was a real eye-opener.

Cheers for now, Sun Lion.

P.S. Hi Teia.
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  #467  
Old 10-24-2012, 07:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Muhler View Post
My mother, who died many years ago, firmly believed the story about Queen Ingrid being a cleptomaniac. Even though she had a deep respect for Queen Ingrid for not least being the undisputed matriach of the DRF - and for dressing down Prince Henrik from time to time....
Whether the cleptomaniac story was true, a misunderstanding or simply a nasty rumour I don't know. Frederik was devoted to Queen Ingrid but I'm in no doubt that he was also a handful! I read a theory way back that marriage-problems can manifest themselves as cleptomania. I don't know. The rumour was apparantly widely believed.
From a very reliable source I know that the cleptomaniacstory unfortunately is true But... The court always either returned the things or simply paid for it, so no harm was done and everyone working in the store knew it.
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  #468  
Old 10-25-2012, 03:59 AM
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From a very reliable source I know that the cleptomaniacstory unfortunately is true But... The court always either returned the things or simply paid for it, so no harm was done and everyone working in the store knew it.
That's what I have been told too from people working in department stores in Copenhagen. Also, Ingrid apparently had a person trailing behind her, replacing some of the objects taken or otherwise keeping score to refund the stores.

Muhler, as to Ingrid's accent - to the best of my memory Ingrid kept a slight Swedish accent all her life. Some of it might be attributable to her very posh way of speaking Danish, but still I remember her spoken language as Danish with a slight accent.
This just goes to show how extremely difficult is is to speak a language you have learned as an adult without any trace of an accent - even if you were born and raised speaking a 'neighbouring tongue'.

Just for the record - I don't mind accents. I find them charming and understandable and I don't quite understand the obsession some people have with finding faults about accents.
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  #469  
Old 10-25-2012, 04:13 AM
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You are welcome, Sun Lion

Thanks FasterB, for the confirmation.

And UserDane, you are right, it's not the accent that matters (that can be very charming) but the mastery of the language. Queen Ingrid did master Danish to perfection. Mary is excellent and our Marie will get there - and soon.
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  #470  
Old 10-25-2012, 05:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Muhler View Post
You are welcome, Sun Lion

Thanks FasterB, for the confirmation.

And UserDane, you are right, it's not the accent that matters (that can be very charming) but the mastery of the language. Queen Ingrid did master Danish to perfection. Mary is excellent and our Marie will get there - and soon.
Sun Lion was right by saying that Muhler must of have stayed up all night!
The information Muhler gave was again very interesting, thank you for your time
About six months ago I started a 'teach yourself' Norwegian (Bokmal)course and found lots of information about the different languages Norway has. I also had an insight in the story of the origins of the language and the many dialects, the Norwegian language story is very similar to the Danish one. But I am far from being an expert such as Muhler is!
These discussions are also interesting while they make one eager to learn more about it.

Hello to Sun Lion too!
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  #471  
Old 10-25-2012, 07:25 AM
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You are most kind, Teia

You will observe the same phenomenon as in Norway, should you ever wish to study Faeroese. The difference between the individual hamlets can be very significant.

I wonder if something similar is the case on similar isolated islands and mountain regions, like the Shetlands and remoter parts of the Scottish highlands?
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  #472  
Old 10-25-2012, 07:45 AM
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Nice Nofret speaks more languages then me and has experience with Dutch
Since I was born in Belgium thought about something:
Flemish and Dutch are exactly the same language (we use the same schoolbooks, dictionaries etc.) (We do not like to compare or talk about it too much, but that is a different story)
The only difference lays in the pronounciation and depending from which part of the country you are this difference in pronounce can be quite havy.
We could therefore say that Flemish speaking Belgians and Dutch are speaking the same language with an accent

Nice Nofret also says that he finds it very difficult to pronounce Danish, I find Norwegian (Bokmal) very hard to study as it is a very different language from those I already know. (French, Flemish/Dutch, German, English and Italian)
I watched a video from Mary talking Danish, could understand something: 'ein zu wechseln' (pronounced just like in German) roughly translated: 'replace'
In Norwegian too from time to time I understand some German or Dutch words
Is it in someone's opinion possible that Danish is easier to learn for a English than a French?
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  #473  
Old 10-25-2012, 04:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Muhler View Post
You are welcome, Sun Lion

Queen Ingrid did master Danish to perfection. Mary is excellent and our Marie will get there - and soon.
Indeed.
You're right; Marie is learning Danish fast now; you can hear it each time she's on TV.
Mary has also achieved a quite substantial vocabulary. I remember the TV programme about the restoration of their palace. At one point Frederik and Mary and the architect I think it was are standing in front of a shelf or fireplace and Frederik says that you can place - and then the word eludes him - on it. Mary then askes if he means 'nips' (trinkets). Nips is not something you say very often and I thought it was indicative of her expanding vocabulary.

And one day I hope that prince Henrik - in spite of his very heavy accent which through the years have offended so many Danes - will truly be acknowledged for his vocabulary in Danish. It really is quite impressive from what I have heard.
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  #474  
Old 10-25-2012, 05:24 PM
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Indeed.
"I remember the TV programme about the restoration of their palace. At one point Frederik and Mary and the architect I think it was are standing in front of a shelf or fireplace and Frederik says that you can place - and then the word eludes him - on it. Mary then askes if he means 'nips' (trinkets). Nips is not something you say very often and I thought it was indicative of her expanding vocabulary.

Hi UserDane - "nips" is interesting. It shows the influence of Danish on English, back in the old, old days I think.
We say things like "a nip of brandy" - meaning a small amount of brandy - or "the dog nipped me" - a small bite etc. (Nip being something small - like a trinket being a small token/object.)

Cheers, Sun Lion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by teia View Post
"Flemish and Dutch are exactly the same language (we use the same schoolbooks, dictionaries etc.) (We do not like to compare or talk about it too much, but that is a different story)
The only difference lays in the pronounciation and depending from which part of the country you are this difference in pronounce can be quite havy.
We could therefore say that Flemish speaking Belgians and Dutch are speaking the same language with an accent

Hi Teia - wonderful for you to have so many languages under your belt.

Most Aussies have only English - unless they or their parents have migrated here - and that I think adds to our sense of isolation. (Also, I know of many grandparent migrants who only have their original language and the grandchildren who have only English -being born here - and only the middle generation having both languages. Sad as the "oldies" and the "youngies" can't talk to each other. Very isolating for the "oldies" too - no newspapers, TV, etc.)

Asian languages are taught more in the school system now, (more than German or French as during my schooling days), but these keep being dropped as so few student keep going with them, and also because whereas our major trading partner used to be Japan, (hence Japanese was big at one time), now it is Mandarin for China.

We sometimes see reports in the papers here, about the situation re Flemish speaking and French speaking Belgium. I didn't know Flemish was a form of Dutch - of perhaps, Dutch is a form of Flemish.

Many Dutch, (and German) people moved to Tasmania in the years after the Second World War. (Asians to Sydney, Greek and Italians to Melbourne, English to Adelaide.) Tasmania of course is a Dutch name - for Abel Tasman, previous name for Tas was also Dutch - "Van Dieman's Land", while Australia used to be called "New Holland".

These families are very established now, but their influence on Oz continues. My husband's family, all very middle-aged, still sound English to my family from Tas, as the South Australian school system had many migrant English teachers back in the 1950s and 60s, so they speak with that influence, even though they grew up in the outback later as teenagers, (very "broad" Australian influences there.)

Cheers, Sun Lion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Muhler View Post

"As for accepting. Well, that's the difference between a multicultural country and a tribe. We Danes are a tribe and even though we are very hesitant to say it, we are pretty proud of our country, heritage, culture and history. And in many ways we still have the mentallity of a large village. Strangers and newcomers are welcome but they need to adapt to the ways of the tribe and learn the lingo of the tribe in order to be accepted."

Hi Again Muhler, I've been reading the posts about Queen Ingrid and wondered in view of your post re Danes being a tribe, how do people feel about the mixture of genes coming into the Royal Family.

That is, Queen Margrethe being 1/2 Swedish through her mother, CP Frederick being 1/2 French through his father, and future King Christian being 1/2 Scottish through CP Mary - (I think Mary has only Scottish genes through her parents, though she will have an Australian influence on her children through her upbringing and formative years here.)?

Is it viewed as good, bad, or like Goldilocks "just right" and doesn't matter, as long as they uphold all good things Danish as they play out their roles?

Thanks, Sun Lion.
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  #475  
Old 10-25-2012, 11:01 PM
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I can't speak on behalf of any Dane, but from what I have read and discussed with various Danish persons who are known to me personally, the Danes would idealy prefer a foreign born individual (royal or otherwise) to a Danish born subject marrying into their royal family.

"New blood" is, as far as I am aware, not at all thought of as a bad thing in Denmark and has long been the norm. Foreign born consorts have generally been the rule of thumb in Denmark, as history dictates.

From Mary and proceeding back, the nationality of conventional and legitimate consorts has been..

Australian
Swedish
German
Swedish
German
German
Danish - although never Queen due to divorce
German
German
British
British
German
German
German
German etc and so forth.

Of course the person's peronal happiness is what matters most nowadays, though having a foreigner who has no political and cultural affiliations or prejudices can only be considered as a good thing. They are a blank canvas.

The idea of having the girl next door (literally) become Queen of Denmark would be a rather unprecedented occasion and would perhaps not gain as much of a positive reception (?). Accepted, sure. But preferred? Possibly not.
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  #476  
Old 10-25-2012, 11:23 PM
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"Denmark was to become a democracy by 1849. Absolutism was to be abolished and a new Constitution was being written. By then, (1814, DK was Napoleon's last ally)....

Hi Muhler - I don't know if Denmark benefitted or suffered by being allied with Napoleon, but your mentioning him reminded me of something I picked up at the Napoleon exhibition at Melbourne's National Gallery earlier this year.

Apparently he had always had a fascination with Australia, even as a young boy, and had applied to go on La Perouse's exploration when he was a teenager. He was knocked back, but Europe's history would have been very different if he had been allowed to go, as La Perouse and his ship and men where lost at sea and never found again.

As an aside, this exhibition contained Empress Josephine's jewels - magnificant crown, tiara, coronet, necklace, bracelets and comb - rubies. And she wore them altogether - the crown, coronet, tiara and comb all on her head at the same time - there's a portrait of her all decked out. She also was very interested in Australian flora and fauna and had many Aussie plants put into her garden at Malmasion.

(Many places down the east coast of Australia and Tasmania are named after La Perouse and the explorer sent out to find him.)

Cheers, Sun Lion.

(P.S. - sorry moderators - probably in the wrong thread talking about the French monarchy - probably needs moving.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Madame Royale View Post
I can't speak on behalf of any Dane, but from what I have read and discussed with various Danish persons who are known to me personally, the Danes would idealy prefer a foreign born individual (royal or otherwise) to a Danish born subject marrying into their royal family.

"New blood" is, as far as I am aware, not at all thought of as a bad thing in Denmark and has long been the norm. Foreign born consorts has generally been the rule of thumb in Denmark throughout history.

From Mary and proceeding back, the nationality of consorts has been..

Australian
Swedish
German
Swedish
German
German
Danish
German
German
British
British
German
German
German
German etc and so forth.

Of course the person's peronal happiness is what matters most, though having a foreigner who has no political and cultural affiliations or prejudices can only be considered as a good thing. They are a blank canvas.

The idea of having had a girl next door (literally) become Queen of Denmark, eventually, would perhaps not have gained as much of a positive reception. Accepted, sure. But preferred? Possibly not.


Thank you Madame Royal. I hadn't though of any possible repercussions from the Royal Family marrying within Denmark as outlined by you above.

I can see that might lead to all sorts of situations arising as time goes by - rightly or wrongly - and yes, newcomers would have no association with any political or social agendas going on now, or in the past.

I'm glad the Danish people are open and accepting of the husbands and wives marrying in from abroad -it must help too in binding nations together even in these modern times. (For example, the new wind farm going up in Musselroe in Tasmania has Danish input - a direct result of Mary coming from there I think - Tassies and Danes are talking to each other like never before.)

Cheers, Sun Lion.
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  #477  
Old 10-26-2012, 01:19 AM
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Melbourne & Sydney, Australia
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You're welcome, Sun Lion. That has been my observation in any case.

It will be interesting to read what our Danish members thoughts are as they are in a far better position than I to answer your question :)

Only one Danish wife of a Danish King ever held the title of Queen; Anne Sophie Reventlow.

Danish women who married Danish monarchs are as follows..

Louise Rasmussen: The morganatic wife of Frederik VII, later created Countess Danner.

Anne Sophie Reventlow: The second wife of Frederik IV and crowned 'Queen' but with no actual state designation, i.e, 'of Denmark and Norway'. Nor did she hold the style of 'Majesty'.

Elisabeth Helene von Vieregg: A German born noble and first morganatic wife of Frederik IV.

Princess Vilhelmine Marie of Denmark and Norway: Divorced her husband, Prince Frederik of Denmark before his accession (Frederik VII).

Kirsten Munk: A Danish noble, morganatic wife and second spouse of Christian IV.
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  #478  
Old 10-26-2012, 03:15 AM
Sun Lion's Avatar
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Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 998
Wow Madame Royale, you certainly have a handle on Danish Royal history!

Is Denmark of special interest to you, or are you across many Royal Houses generally?

I've just taken an interest in CP Mary in the last year or so, though I grew up with Princess Caroline of Monaco/Hanover through my formative years and enjoy seeing what she is up to - and loved seeing her at the recent Luxembourg wedding.

These are my two Royals of interest - Mary and Caroline. I don't think I'm the right generation to have much interest in Catherine, Duchess of Cambridge, and I think at the time she was alive there was an over-load of Diana in our magazines, though I've just watched a special about her I recorded on the anniversary of her death a few months back, and now have a greater appreciation of her and her legacy.

This forum, and the contributions of it's members, certainly help compared to how it was in the "old days" - before the internet and such.

Thank you for your feedback - - Cheers, Sun Lion.
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  #479  
Old 10-26-2012, 03:39 AM
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A pleasure, Sun Lion.

The Danish monarchy is of particular interest and I have myself visited Denmark previously. I am by no means as up to date with Danish history as those Danes who also post on this forum, nor do I have my finger on 'the pulse' so to speak. But nonetheless, the history of the Danish monarchy does interest me greatly and it is spectacular at that
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  #480  
Old 10-26-2012, 03:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sun Lion View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Muhler View Post

"As for accepting. Well, that's the difference between a multicultural country and a tribe. We Danes are a tribe and even though we are very hesitant to say it, we are pretty proud of our country, heritage, culture and history. And in many ways we still have the mentallity of a large village. Strangers and newcomers are welcome but they need to adapt to the ways of the tribe and learn the lingo of the tribe in order to be accepted."

Hi Again Muhler, I've been reading the posts about Queen Ingrid and wondered in view of your post re Danes being a tribe, how do people feel about the mixture of genes coming into the Royal Family.

That is, Queen Margrethe being 1/2 Swedish through her mother, CP Frederick being 1/2 French through his father, and future King Christian being 1/2 Scottish through CP Mary - (I think Mary has only Scottish genes through her parents, though she will have an Australian influence on her children through her upbringing and formative years here.)?

Is it viewed as good, bad, or like Goldilocks "just right" and doesn't matter, as long as they uphold all good things Danish as they play out their roles?

Thanks, Sun Lion.
It's not considered a problem.
Actually I believe many if not most consider it an advantage to have someone from another country marrying into the DRF. QMII certainly think so. - That means there is no family that can embarrass Mary, Henrik or our Marie here in DK.

What matters is that those who marry "into the tribe" assimilate. Mary and Marie have both been assimilated. Queen Indrid was too. - And Henrik has eventually been accepted.
Assimilation is the key word here.

ADDED: Madame Royale explained it very well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sun Lion View Post
Hi Muhler - I don't know if Denmark benefitted or suffered by being allied with Napoleon, but your mentioning him reminded me of something I picked up at the Napoleon exhibition at Melbourne's National Gallery earlier this year.

Apparently he had always had a fascination with Australia, even as a young boy, and had applied to go on La Perouse's exploration when he was a teenager. He was knocked back, but Europe's history would have been very different if he had been allowed to go, as La Perouse and his ship and men where lost at sea and never found again.

(Many places down the east coast of Australia and Tasmania are named after La Perouse and the explorer sent out to find him.)

Cheers, Sun Lion.
Well, the world would certainly have been different had Napoleon not been around. - And I think, not a better place.
A lot of the reformes passed by Napoleon were very beneficial and much needed. So it was good he wasn't onboard that ship.

I didn't know about his interest in Australia, he had, I understand, a good deal of interest in French Louisiana and had his interest been bigger, we might today have not one but three "United States of America".

Anyway back to the question of Denmark and Napoleon, which ended up with the seperation of Denmark and Norway after 500 years and Denmark going bankrupt in 1814.

By 1801 Denmark had been at peace for 80 years and we had prospered very much from that, thank you! While the rest of Europe were involved in various wars, Denmark quietly traded with everyone sailing goods for everyone and everywhere, including slaves en masse. And we hoped to sit out the troubly in Europe this time as well.
However DK had also been more or less pressured to become a part of armed neutrality alliance, consisting of Russia, Sweden and DK. That caused some consternation in Britain, which saw the alliance as a direct threat to British trade in the Baltic. Whether that really was the case is doubtful IMO.
Anyway, Britain decided on a little gunboat-diplomacy and send a navy to Copenhagen to "persude" DK to step out of that alliance. That culminated in the Battle of Copenhagen 2nd April 1801. The birthday of H.C. Andersen.
You know, Nelson with the telecope in front of his blind eye and all that. Whether is was a military victory can be very much debated, as Nelson was unable to use his favorite tactic of breaching the Danish line. And even though the first Danish line of defence had been battered severely it wasn't broken and the second line of defence was even more formidable.
Had the Danish Crown Prince not decided to stop the fightings, the British fleet would have been forced to retreat. It was in no condition to carry on fighting and certainly not to try and take on the second line of defence.
One of the reasons for the armestice was a threat from Nelson to burn the Danish ships. Whether he really would have is also doubtful as it would have been considered an atrocity and certainly not a political advantage.
Okay, DK stepped out of the alliance which wasn't worth much anyway after the death of the Russian tsar shortly after.
And despite this DK and Britain remained on friendly terms. As we had been for 700 years. Our countries were never exactly allies or even close friends, but friendly neighbors - and that's not bad by any standard!
The battle? Well, these things happen.

1807. Napoleon was basically in full control of Europe. European ports were as far as it was possible closed for British ships. The situation was getting pretty serious and there was the danger of Napoleon crossing the Channel.
It was very much feared in Britain that Napoleon would "persuade" Denmark to join him and in Copenhagen (where Dannebrog is often moored now) was a very large and well maintained fleet of no less than 60 ships of the line. Even though most ships were mothballed and many somewhat old fashioned, they were just what Napoleon needed to cover the crossing of the Channel or to lure away the British Home Fleet, so that the Channel could be crossed.
That scenario caused some stomach ulcers in London so it was decided to give Denmark an offer: "Hand your navy over to us. We will look after it, pay all expences and return it after the war, with a little reimbursement on top". Naturally such an "offer" was rejected.
So a fleet was yet again sent to Copenhagen. Not to fight the Danish navy, they didn't want to go through that one more time! Instead troops were landed and they marched on to Copenhagen and surrounded the city. The Danish army was stationed in Schleswig & Holstein to protect the border, in case Napoleon should feel like marching north. This is also where the Crown Prince was. (Dad was insane).
Copenhagen was bombarded, including with incindiary rockets (Congreve) a very large part of the city was burned and many civillians died. The military govenor of Copenhagen surrendered after three days of shelling and the Danish fleet was handed over to the British.

That bombardment is not very well known in Britain nowadays. There is a tendency to quietly by-pass that episode. Because it was a blatant attrocity even back then, it was also seen as an unprovoked attack on an old neighbor and naturally Napoleon used the bombardment for propaganda purposes.
Militarily it was one of the most well excuted combined operations in the entire 1800's and I dare say 1700's as well. But it led to Denmark becoming a diehard enemy of Britain.
As you know Napoleon was defeated in 1814 and Denmark was his last ally. That resulted in having to cecede Norway to Sweden after 500 years as a dual monarchy and also in DK going bankrupt, because our trade was destroyed.
In 1815 DK chose to be on the winning side and took part in the subsequent occupation of France after Waterloo.

As a little curiosum. A girl born during the bombardment was named Bombardina. After the surrender, Copenhageners ventured out to see the British camp. Especially the Highland regiments were a novelty. These barelegged men were considered quite exotic. - While at the same time around 500 civilian Copenhageners were being buried as a result of the bombardment. (According to the latest and revised estimate).
The church that stood there where Mary and Frederik was married was among the buildings destroyed. The spire falling in the flames is a particular favorite motive among artists depicting the bombardment. (I'm sure FasterB can confirm if that is correct or not).
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