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  #41  
Old 02-17-2016, 09:12 AM
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Originally Posted by HereditaryPrincess View Post
Thank you for the photo, they seem to be a likeable couple. I'm looking forward to the wedding, it will be interesting to see which reigning houses will attend. I'm not that knowledgable about Princess Alix enough to know, but is she close to any of them?
I think there will be attendances from the Belgian royal family, from the Luxembourgian grand-ducal family, from the House Austria-Este (linked to the Belgian royal family via Princess Astrid), from the House Austria-Lorraine (linked to the Luxembourgian grand-ducal family via Princess Marie-Astrid) and from the House Liechtenstein (linked to the Luxembourgian grand-ducal family via Princess Margaretha).

That for the reigning royal families. As the House De Ligne is a most respected House, we can expect attendances from the other Belgian Houses considered a par with the De Lignes: the Princes d'Arenberg, the Dukes de Croÿ-Solre, the Dukes d'Ursel, the Dukes de Looz-Corswarem, the Princes de Merode, the Princes de Lobkowicz and the Princes de Chimay et de Caraman and some more individuals.
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  #42  
Old 02-17-2016, 09:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
The marriage of a Princesse de Ligne with a Comte de Dampierre is not Ebenbürtig, it is not a marriage between partners of equal rank. However it is Standesgemäß, a marriage between partners of an equal standing: Alix de Ligne comes from the Belgian aristocracy. Guillaume de Dampierre comes from the French aristocracy. So they are Standesgemäß.

In some Royal House, like Prussia, the norm is to marry Standesgemäß, it is not at all needed to marry Ebenbürtig there. The marriage of the late Prince Louis-Ferdinand of Prussia with Countess Donata zu Castell-Rüdenhausen was Standesgemäß and therefore dynastic. The marriage of their son Prince Georg Friedrich with Princess Sophie von Isenburg is seen as Standesgemäß and therefore dynastic.

So we need to know what exactly is the requirement for a dynastic marriage in the House of Brazil. Is that an Ebenbürtige marriage (strictly equal) or is it "only" required to marry Standesgemäß ?
thanks for the information, very interesting, i didn't know the distinction. so would Ebenbürtige be if alix married another prince of belgium only?

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Kate Middelton 's lace was made in Caudry (France) it took and long time.

The lace was taken at Liiie railway Station and a great amount of real lace were put on.

This weddng dress took months, Isabelle Orsini 's dress was only in mechanic lace.

it is "a hasard" but Kate should have shown the back of the dress which was hidden by her hair.

Sorry our of topic , but isabelle Orsini was pregnant !
what was at the back of kate's dress? i think we saw the back of it a bit, the lace with the small buttons and some bits of cloth at her hips to give the skirt more volume, i assume.

yes, isabella and kate's dresses bore a striking resemblance indeed! one can say they both take an inspiration from grace kelly's but the bodice around the chest was so similar - and yet very unusual, so i wonder if kate liked isabella's dress and asked for her to be made to be similar - albeit with more manpower behind it in the form of lace work.
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  #43  
Old 02-17-2016, 09:41 AM
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Originally Posted by carlota View Post
thanks for the information, very interesting, i didn't know the distinction. so would Ebenbürtige be if alix married another prince of belgium only?
A Prince de Belgique is Section I of the Almanach de Gotha. A Prince de Ligne is Section II (mediatized Houses). So Princess Alix de Ligne would actually marry "up" in that case, if we measure it in terms of the Almanach.

Her "equals" are Houses in Section II: princely and ducal Houses. A Princess Alix de Ligne with a Prince Borghese, a Duke de La Rochefoucauld, a Prince Troubetzkoy, think along these lines. That would be strictly Ebenbürtig for her, in old times.
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  #44  
Old 02-17-2016, 09:47 AM
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I fear that the De Ligne's are in section III of the Gotha, though most agree that this has been a mistake and that they should be in the second section. The other families you mention are also in section III (same goes for the Limburg-Stirum family).

The second section mostly has German-Austrian mediatised houses such as the Thurn und Taxis, Isenburg, Croÿ etc. Many of them less prestigious than families in the 3rd section, though they had the saving grace of being nominaly 'sovereign' until the Napoleontic times. Section III lists the highest noble families from Europe that were NOT mediatised. All the French, British, Spanish etc. dukes, Italian and Russian Princes willbe in that section.

Of the present Belgian noble families it is safe to assume that the De Ligne's rank no. 1.; it is older than the Croÿ's and Arenbergs. And that is despite the fact that both latter families feature in section II of the Gotha. The Arenberg's can even be considered a junior sidebranch of the Ligne family, as they decend from Jean de Ligne and Margaretha of Arenberg. I suppose that the family can also be considered no. 1 of the surviving nobility of the Low Countries combined since the House of Egmont became extinct.
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  #45  
Old 02-17-2016, 09:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Marengo View Post
I fear that the De ligne's are in section III of the Gotha, though most agree that this has been a mistake and that they should be in the second section. The other families you mention are also in section III.

The second section mostly has German-Austrian mediatised houses such as the Thurn und Taxis, Isenburg, Croÿ etc. Some of them less prestigious than families in the 3rd section.
Yes Ligne is in Section III.
The difference is that the german and austrian Houses who are in Section II. where sovereign Houses until the dissolution of the Holy roman Empire in 1806 which the Houses in the UK, France etc. etc. where not.
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  #46  
Old 02-17-2016, 11:26 AM
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It was always said that never the King and the Queen of the Belgians went to a Ligne or a Merode wedding.
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  #47  
Old 02-17-2016, 11:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
The marriage of a Princesse de Ligne with a Comte de Dampierre is not Ebenbürtig, it is not a marriage between partners of equal rank. However it is Standesgemäß, a marriage between partners of an equal standing: Alix de Ligne comes from the Belgian aristocracy. Guillaume de Dampierre comes from the French aristocracy. So they are Standesgemäß.

In some Royal House, like Prussia, the norm is to marry Standesgemäß, it is not at all needed to marry Ebenbürtig there. The marriage of the late Prince Louis-Ferdinand of Prussia with Countess Donata zu Castell-Rüdenhausen was Standesgemäß and therefore dynastic. The marriage of their son Prince Georg Friedrich with Princess Sophie von Isenburg is seen as Standesgemäß and therefore dynastic.

So we need to know what exactly is the requirement for a dynastic marriage in the House of Brazil. Is that an Ebenbürtige marriage (strictly equal) or is it "only" required to marry Standesgemäß ?
I'm no expert like you, but I suppose a Standesgemäß is good enough, as a Prince and a Princess of Brazil were allowed to marry a Princess and a Prince de Ligne in the 1980's and keep their succession rights.
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  #48  
Old 02-17-2016, 12:24 PM
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I'm no expert like you, but I suppose a Standesgemäß is good enough, as Prince and a Princess of Brazil were allowed to marry a Princess and a Prince de Ligne in the 1980's and keep their succession rights.
In that case we may expect that the marriage of Princess Alix de Ligne with Count Guillaume de Dampierre will be dynastical indeed. Congratulations. It is precisely for these alliances and the loads of history and the many faits divers connected to all this, that I became intrigued in royalty and aristocracy!

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  #49  
Old 02-17-2016, 12:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Marengo View Post
[...]
Of the present Belgian noble families it is safe to assume that the De Ligne's rank no. 1.; it is older than the Croÿ's and Arenbergs. And that is despite the fact that both latter families feature in section II of the Gotha. The Arenberg's can even be considered a junior sidebranch of the Ligne family, as they decend from Jean de Ligne and Margaretha of Arenberg. I suppose that the family can also be considered no. 1 of the surviving nobility of the Low Countries combined since the House of Egmont became extinct.
Absolutely. The De Lignes were, together with the Nassaus, the two most prestigious noble families of the Low Countries. A popular rumour is that 1830 the Prince de Ligne was asked to become King of the Belgians. The Prince however remained loyal to King Willem I of the Netherlands and thought that the unity of the Low Countries was of vital importance. The Prince de Ligne moved himself completely out of public eye when the new Belgian state was formed.

In 1834 the looted estate of the Prince of Orange (the later King Willem II) was put up for sale by the Belgian Government. The Prince thought it was an utter disgrace to see the prestigious estate of the Prince of Orange sold in a public auction. The Prince was one of the first bidders to buy the exceptional horses of the Prince of Orange, which still were in the manege in Tervueren. He wanted to be sure he could acquire the top-breed horses and hand them over to the Prince.

By this action the Prince de Ligne caused an enormous uproar under the Brussels scum and his residence in Brussels was looted. The Prince left Belgium and decided to stay in his residence in Vienna. Four years later, confronted with the Belgian independence, the Prince realized it was better to see the Belgian break-away from the Netherlands as a fait-accompli, also to secure his many Belgian estates and other interests. He returned and up to today the De Lignes still reside in the kingdom of Belgium.
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  #50  
Old 02-19-2016, 12:47 PM
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The website of Beloeil Castle says;

WARNING: the castle and park will be exceptionally closed from 13 till 22 june 2016.

So I think the Mariage and party's around it are in that time!


Château de Beloeil - Practical information
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  #51  
Old 02-19-2016, 04:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Marengo View Post
I fear that the De Ligne's are in section III of the Gotha, though most agree that this has been a mistake and that they should be in the second section. The other families you mention are also in section III (same goes for the Limburg-Stirum family).

The second section mostly has German-Austrian mediatised houses such as the Thurn und Taxis, Isenburg, Croÿ etc. Many of them less prestigious than families in the 3rd section, though they had the saving grace of being nominaly 'sovereign' until the Napoleontic times. Section III lists the highest noble families from Europe that were NOT mediatised. All the French, British, Spanish etc. dukes, Italian and Russian Princes willbe in that section.

Of the present Belgian noble families it is safe to assume that the De Ligne's rank no. 1.; it is older than the Croÿ's and Arenbergs. And that is despite the fact that both latter families feature in section II of the Gotha. The Arenberg's can even be considered a junior sidebranch of the Ligne family, as they decend from Jean de Ligne and Margaretha of Arenberg. I suppose that the family can also be considered no. 1 of the surviving nobility of the Low Countries combined since the House of Egmont became extinct.
The term "equal" was reserved just for the families who held immediate territory in the Holy Roman Empire until 1806.

Problem with de Ligne family and why they are listed in Section III was because they lost their immediate land of Fagnolles in 1801 and sold their immediate land Edelstetten in 1804 to the Esterhazy family before 1806.

There were other families in similar situation who sold their immediate territories just few years before 1806 and thus lost a "chance" of being treated "equal".For example,some such families were:

1. Nostitiz-Rheineck-sold immediate land of Rheineck in 1803 to Colloredo-Mansfeld family.

2. Bretzenheim-lost their immediate lands Bretzenheim and Winzenheim in 1801 and sold immediate Lindau in 1803.

3. Abensberg-Traun-sold their immediate lands Eglof and Siggen in 1804 to Windischgrätz family.

Problem with Limburg family was because line of the family who held immediate territory of Gemen died out by 19th century and only lines who never held this immediate territory survived,so they could not be treated "equal".

But,in the end,every family had its own rules and could decide which criteria will they use.
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  #52  
Old 02-20-2016, 06:50 PM
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Congrats to the happy couple ive always thought the de Ligne family seemed so nice. Their château Beloeil is one of the most beautiful in Belgium, a great backdrop for a wedding hope they have a long and happy life together !
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  #53  
Old 02-20-2016, 06:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Marc23 View Post
The term "equal" was reserved just for the families who held immediate territory in the Holy Roman Empire until 1806.

Problem with de Ligne family and why they are listed in Section III was because they lost their immediate land of Fagnolles in 1801 and sold their immediate land Edelstetten in 1804 to the Esterhazy family before 1806.

There were other families in similar situation who sold their immediate territories just few years before 1806 and thus lost a "chance" of being treated "equal".For example,some such families were:

1. Nostitiz-Rheineck-sold immediate land of Rheineck in 1803 to Colloredo-Mansfeld family.

2. Bretzenheim-lost their immediate lands Bretzenheim and Winzenheim in 1801 and sold immediate Lindau in 1803.

3. Abensberg-Traun-sold their immediate lands Eglof and Siggen in 1804 to Windischgrätz family.

Problem with Limburg family was because line of the family who held immediate territory of Gemen died out by 19th century and only lines who never held this immediate territory survived,so they could not be treated "equal".

But,in the end,every family had its own rules and could decide which criteria will they use.
Thanks Marc. I heard the story about the De Ligne family before but not about the others. Neither did I remember why exactly the Limburg-Stirums were out of the almanach.

You are right that 'equal' was different for some families. The Habsburgs in their hay days would never have dreamt of considering a Liechtenstein 'equal'. A meditised house like Windisch Graetz was problematic too, though in the late 19th century more seemed to be possible.
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  #54  
Old 02-20-2016, 06:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Marijke View Post
The website of Beloeil Castle says;

WARNING: the castle and park will be exceptionally closed from 13 till 22 june 2016.

So I think the Mariage and party's around it are in that time!


Château de Beloeil - Practical information
Of course I don't know for sure, but there's a chance you could be correct. Beloeil is a beautiful place, it would be lovely if the wedding or the wedding reception were held there.
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  #55  
Old 02-20-2016, 07:41 PM
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The family follows the tradition of marrying at the bride's home.

Here is the pic of the church where her Aunt married, church of St Piere

Europe, Beloeil Castle St. Peter's Church, Algae Filled Stream Stock Photo, Picture And Royalty Free Image. Pic. 3815217

The reception should follow at the estate after
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  #56  
Old 02-20-2016, 08:27 PM
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The church seems to be small. Only her maternal family will occupy half of the seats. 11 uncles and aunts, 28 cousins, plus spouses.

The Point de Vue report from Princess Christine de Ligne wedding with Prince Antonio of Brazil, in 1981, at Beloeil.


http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-KzS1gUC5VJ...25282%2529.jpg

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-3DNQu2DCw2...25281%2529.jpg

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-OyJDxOgPfR...25281%2529.jpg

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-GjgwaOqYpL...25281%2529.jpg
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  #57  
Old 02-20-2016, 09:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Marengo View Post
Thanks Marc. I heard the story about the De Ligne family before but not about the others. Neither did I remember why exactly the Limburg-Stirums were out of the almanach.

You are right that 'equal' was different for some families. The Habsburgs in their hay days would never have dreamt of considering a Liechtenstein 'equal'. A mediatized house like Windisch Graetz was problematic too, though in the late 19th century more seemed to be possible.
True,but considering they are on the list Habsburgs made for marriage purposes,everything is technically "clean".

By the end of 19th century Habsburgs shortened the list by cutting comital mediatized families as equal to them for marriage purposes.Only Princely mediatized families "survived".

But again,there were other rules for the Head of the family and for the rest of them.

Future Emperor could not have a permission to marry a Hohenlohe-Waldenburg Princess while his younger brother could.In both cases it's not a desirable match,but if it's made possible,it will not be for the future Emperor.
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  #58  
Old 02-20-2016, 09:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Marijke View Post
The website of Beloeil Castle says;

WARNING: the castle and park will be exceptionally closed from 13 till 22 june 2016.

So I think the Mariage and party's around it are in that time!


Château de Beloeil - Practical information
I think the 18th, a saturday, will be the big day then.
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  #59  
Old 02-21-2016, 04:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Cris M View Post
The church seems to be small. Only her maternal family will occupy half of the seats. 11 uncles and aunts, 28 cousins, plus spouses.

The Point de Vue report from Princess Christine de Ligne wedding with Prince Antonio of Brazil, in 1981, at Beloeil.


http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-KzS1gUC5VJ...25282%2529.jpg

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-3DNQu2DCw2...25281%2529.jpg

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-OyJDxOgPfR...25281%2529.jpg

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-GjgwaOqYpL...25281%2529.jpg
Very nice to be able to read this report, thanks for posting it!
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  #60  
Old 02-21-2016, 08:21 AM
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Very nice pictures of a Point de vue of the Past.

No King and Queen of the Belgians , no Grand Duke and Grand Duchess of Luxembourg but their Children.

The same will hapen this time.

Madame la Comtesse de Paris was everywhere welcome !
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