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  #241  
Old 07-19-2010, 07:25 PM
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Originally Posted by LadyMacAlpine View Post
Its one day a week from September to Easter with the holidays off in December so if the Palace Chaplain were to work with her privately it could be done much faster and completed within a month. I found an article that said she hasn't converted yet but then if the press is saying she graduated from College and was a school teacher no one will know the truth about this woman by the end of the year. That could actually be the goal to recreate her resume. People at some point will begin to tell the truth about her as a man who worked with her and her coaches told me to set the record straight.
Converting to Catholicism is no small thing and I do not believe for a second that the Catholic priests will marry these two if CW has not converted as rainier left a stipulaton in the will that the Princees has to be a Catholic."What does I am a Christian mean?" Charlene said she would do what was expected of her and she has not yet converted. I would have seized the oportunity to go the Vatican itself geographically close and take the catechism there and be photographed doing it-but maybe you have to go to confession or maybe they will teach you some latin and it is just better to not do it. But I have said this once and I will say it again there is something very lacking in Charlene and that is a better understanding of spirituality. I wonder if she knows what the Filioque creed is?.I wonder if she knows about the seventh ecumenical council and the consequences.If Charlene was Christian and carrying Christ within her she would not have lived outside of marriage and the blessings of the church for four years.
Lady Mac the truth is there and no one in this information highway can be fooled.
This aspect of Charlene irks me - because she has no spirituality at all. CW must convert as the children must be raised as Catholics and live the life of ones raised in the religion or forfeit their succession.
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  #242  
Old 07-19-2010, 07:32 PM
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Madame Gallico is still the Palace's lady in waiting. Isn't she technically lady in waiting to both Caroline and Stephanie, even though Caroline is the only one with a need for a lady in waiting? Anyway, if Charlene were to need a lady in waiting, I'd imagine it would be Madame Gallico. She is, by all accounts, considered a member of the family by the Grimaldis and goes practically everywhere with them.
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  #243  
Old 07-19-2010, 07:44 PM
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Originally Posted by NGalitzine View Post
Oh, I have no doubt she will convert(and there has been no indication she refuses to convert) just that it is not a constitutional requirement for a consort.
Rainier did leave a stiff stipulation which I think hibou knows more about. This is indeed a Father Tucker moment.
Why do you keep letting this girl off the hook - the national religion is Catholic and they do not perform abortions or use contraceptives from what I see of PA- so why would it not be a constitutional reqiurement of the consort? In what religion would CW raise the progeny and build the foundations of the Catholic family- this is an irrational argument.We know Grace had to pass a fertility test even and she did not blink-and was a sport about it- do we know this of Charlene?
Has dispensation from the Vatican been received for them to proceed ? Did they ask the blessings of any Catholic priest at the betrothal ceremony or only take some pictures - because they are worldy. I did not see the with any priest anywhere... THis is a time of foundations . I hope they build them well - it is not about a tiara here or there or the wedding dress but the actual accountability Pa and Cw have to the Catholic church first and foremost.
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  #244  
Old 07-19-2010, 08:09 PM
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I have seen a number of posts where people write "Rainier's will said this or that" and frankly I would love to read it for myself. Please let us all know where Rainiers will was posted online or even where it was probated and accessible to the public.
Even if he did put such a thing in his will, it would have little force since it is the Constitution that rules and it says nothing about the religion of the monarch let alone the consort, merely that Catholicism is the state religion (and no, that is not quite the same thing).
I also never said that she would not convert. I merely pointed out that some dumped on her when early reports said she had already converted (to catch a prince) and that now others are dumping on her because she has reportedly not converted as of yet.

Would the church in Monaco perform a marriage between 2 Christians of different faiths? Dont know but all things are possible.

Has a Catholic monarch married a Protestant before? There is the example of Astrid of Sweden who remained a Protestant after her marriage in the 20's and in fact did not convert to RC until after the birth of her children, and who was a much loved Queen of The Belgians.

However as I said before I do expect that Charlene will have been received into the RC faith before she takes that walk down the aisle.
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  #245  
Old 07-19-2010, 08:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Jaya View Post
Converting to Catholicism is no small thing and I do not believe for a second that the Catholic priests will marry these two if CW has not converted as rainier left a stipulaton in the will that the Princees has to be a Catholic."What does I am a Christian mean?" Charlene said she would do what was expected of her and she has not yet converted. I would have seized the oportunity to go the Vatican itself geographically close and take the catechism there and be photographed doing it-but maybe you have to go to confession or maybe they will teach you some latin and it is just better to not do it. But I have said this once and I will say it again there is something very lacking in Charlene and that is a better understanding of spirituality. I wonder if she knows what the Filioque creed is?.I wonder if she knows about the seventh ecumenical council and the consequences.If Charlene was Christian and carrying Christ within her she would not have lived outside of marriage and the blessings of the church for four years.
Lady Mac the truth is there and no one in this information highway can be fooled.
This aspect of Charlene irks me - because she has no spirituality at all. CW must convert as the children must be raised as Catholics and live the life of ones raised in the religion.
What utter nonsense. First of all, if you are Christian what makes Catholocism any better than any Protestant faith. If the requirements for marriage are that she convert, so be it, but how she feels inside is her business. Who are you to judge her "spirituality"? What makes you a maven of peoples' thoughts. And as far as living with Albert these last years would eliminate her being a Christian, there probably are very few who qualify under those guidelines. Victoria did with Daniel, Charles with Camilla, William and Kate, etc, etc., as they all have. Those days of chastity for public observance,my dear are gone forever. Good or bad.
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  #246  
Old 07-19-2010, 08:57 PM
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Do you think Charlene will be less accepted by the citizens of Monaco if she is not Catholic? And lets say she doesn't convert, will she be allowed to participate in festivties and celebrations for Sainte Devote etc?
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  #247  
Old 07-19-2010, 09:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Jaya View Post
....... the truth is there and no one in this information highway can be fooled.
This aspect of Charlene irks me - because she has no spirituality at all. CW must convert as the children must be raised as Catholics and live the life of ones raised in the religion.
I am very interested in how you can say that Charlene has no spirtuality at all? Have you had a personal discussion with her? Do you know her feelings on religion? Since we don't know if she has converted or not, I would imagine she has met with a Catholic adviser? Surely that information between the two is privileged and not discussed, so how do you know?

As previously discussed in the Autumn Phillips conversion thread, TONS of people marrying into European families have converted: Mary, Marie of Denmark, the late Tsar Alexandria and Grand Duchess Ella converted, Marie of Romania, I think even Victoria Eugenie of Spain.
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  #248  
Old 07-19-2010, 10:01 PM
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I don´t know if she´s religious, but religion won´t be an obstacle. That would be silly. She only has to say "yes, from now on I an a Catholic", and take some catechism lessons. Many people do it in order to marry. I particularly do not believe people convert. But, does it matter?
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  #249  
Old 07-19-2010, 11:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaya View Post
Converting to Catholicism is no small thing and I do not believe for a second that the Catholic priests will marry these two if CW has not converted as rainier left a stipulaton in the will that the Princees has to be a Catholic."What does I am a Christian mean?" Charlene said she would do what was expected of her and she has not yet converted. I would have seized the oportunity to go the Vatican itself geographically close and take the catechism there and be photographed doing it-but maybe you have to go to confession or maybe they will teach you some latin and it is just better to not do it. But I have said this once and I will say it again there is something very lacking in Charlene and that is a better understanding of spirituality. I wonder if she knows what the Filioque creed is?.I wonder if she knows about the seventh ecumenical council and the consequences.If Charlene was Christian and carrying Christ within her she would not have lived outside of marriage and the blessings of the church
for four years.
Lady Mac the truth is there and no one in this information highway can be fooled.
This aspect of Charlene irks me - because she has no spirituality at all. CW must convert as the children must be raised as Catholics and live the life of ones raised in the religion.

Jaya...most Catholics born after Vatican II don't know what Filioque is, or the reason or impact of the various Ecumenical councils, and they also know very little Latin...nor do they care. I doubt that even the well educated Catholic Grimaldis concern themselves with any of that!

The only people in the Church who concern themselves with the fine points of theology are theologians...and I only know what they mean myself because I am a voracious reader.

Catholicism is more than a religion in many countries, it permeates the culture, the history, and the very identity of a people or nation. It cannot and should not be taken lightly, and I am sure CW realizes that.
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  #250  
Old 07-20-2010, 12:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renata4711 View Post
Hi Goddess, Charlene will NEVER be royal - only princely.

If she really needs a lady-in-waiting (God forbid!), then Madame Gallico would do the job.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sensibility View Post
Madame Gallico is very old and she enjoys of a great fortune for her work for so many years near HSH Princess Grace till 1982. I don´think she needs a job now or she accepts it.xx
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thecia View Post
Madame Gallico is still the Palace's lady in waiting. Isn't she technically lady in waiting to both Caroline and Stephanie, even though Caroline is the only one with a need for a lady in waiting? Anyway, if Charlene were to need a lady in waiting, I'd imagine it would be Madame Gallico. She is, by all accounts, considered a member of the family by the Grimaldis and goes practically everywhere with them.
Renta...and your point? Still, as far as I'm concerned, Princely, royal...there's not a real difference, and they are all still technically royalty. But that's my American perspective of it. I do agree with you though-if she and Albert feel she needs one, then Madame Gallico will do the job.
Senibility: define very old. I believe Madame Gallico is either late sixtys or early seventies...from a Grimaldi perspective, (given the fact that Princess Antoinette will hit 90 years old in December of this year, and Rainier lived to be 81) that's hardly "very old".
Theica: Well said. I do believe she is technically for both PC and PS *(and I'm assuming eventually for Charlene post wedding), although she primarily works with PC.
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  #251  
Old 07-20-2010, 09:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Moonmaiden23 View Post
Jaya...most Catholics born after Vatican II don't know what Filioque is, or the reason or impact of the various Ecumenical councils, and they also know very little Latin...nor do they care. I doubt that even the well educated Catholic Grimaldis concern themselves with any of that!

The only people in the Church who concern themselves with the fine points of theology are theologians...and I only know what they mean myself because I am a voracious reader.

Catholicism is more than a religion in many countries, it permeates the culture, the history, and the very identity of a people or nation. It cannot and should not be taken lightly, and I am sure CW realizes that.
Thanks for that- I am very glad to read about it and have somebody on board realize what I am speaking of?
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  #252  
Old 07-20-2010, 10:31 AM
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A bit of history might help: At the time Rainier took over, Monaco was becoming more Protestant in nature. The Vatican did not want to lose it's hold. Enter one Father Tucker. Originally from Wilmington De where he orchestrated a huge revival of the Catholic faith which included a whole new church increased attendance and the starting of a school. A rising star, the Vatican requested he join them in Rome where he earned yet another PhD. Then he was sent to Monaco to to cement the Catholic Churches hold. (and helped to orchestra the marriage to Grace Kelly).This is why Rainier put into the Constitution that Monaco is a Catholic State.

Rainier maintained close ties with the Vatican which helped when Caroline requested an annulment. Albert also maintained close ties. This is why Charlene will convert. No she doesn't have to per say, but pressure will be brought on her and Albert if she doesn't. Albert will not risk it. Several posters have mentioned the cultural connections through history, this is true. Many activities in Monaco revolve around the church such as Ste Devote celebrations. So it is woven into the fabric of everyday life. As for Charlene's spirituality. being born a Protestant is one thing being ingrained in that faith is another. For some converting is a hard thing to do. Just sitting through the Catholic Pre-marriage counseling is tough for a Protestant,I can address that personally. My husband is Philadelphia Catholic. I sat through the Catholic marriage counseling and then answered like a Protestant so the church doesn't recognize our marriage. FYI the Catholic church does try to convert you in their own way as I had to take instruction before answering all the questions. So I think that may be what Jaya was referring too. These are just thoughts that may help.
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  #253  
Old 07-20-2010, 11:35 AM
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Originally Posted by hibou View Post
A bit of history might help: At the time Rainier took over, Monaco was becoming more Protestant in nature. The Vatican did not want to lose it's hold. Enter one Father Tucker. Originally from Wilmington De where he orchestrated a huge revival of the Catholic faith which included a whole new church increased attendance and the starting of a school. A rising star, the Vatican requested he join them in Rome where he earned yet another PhD. Then he was sent to Monaco to to cement the Catholic Churches hold. (and helped to orchestra the marriage to Grace Kelly).This is why Rainier put into the Constitution that Monaco is a Catholic State.

Rainier maintained close ties with the Vatican which helped when Caroline requested an annulment. Albert also maintained close ties. This is why Charlene will convert. No she doesn't have to per say, but pressure will be brought on her and Albert if she doesn't. Albert will not risk it. Several posters have mentioned the cultural connections through history, this is true. Many activities in Monaco revolve around the church such as Ste Devote celebrations. So it is woven into the fabric of everyday life. As for Charlene's spirituality. being born a Protestant is one thing being ingrained in that faith is another. For some converting is a hard thing to do. Just sitting through the Catholic Pre-marriage counseling is tough for a Protestant,I can address that personally. My husband is Philadelphia Catholic. I sat through the Catholic marriage counseling and then answered like a Protestant so the church doesn't recognize our marriage. FYI the Catholic church does try to convert you in their own way as I had to take instruction before answering all the questions. So I think that may be what Jaya was referring too. These are just thoughts that may help.
May thanks for that bit of history hibou, perhaps that will put it into perspective.So the Catholic Church and Monaco were cemented by Rainier and the great Father Tucker.Catholicism is the state religion and extends into the philanthropy and humanitarian ideals of the principlaity. Thanks again.
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  #254  
Old 07-20-2010, 11:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Zonk View Post
I am very interested in how you can say that Charlene has no spirtuality at all? Have you had a personal discussion with her? Do you know her feelings on religion? Since we don't know if she has converted or not, I would imagine she has met with a Catholic adviser? Surely that information between the two is privileged and not discussed, so how do you know?

As previously discussed in the Autumn Phillips conversion thread, TONS of people marrying into European families have converted: Mary, Marie of Denmark, the late Tsar Alexandria and Grand Duchess Ella converted, Marie of Romania, I think even Victoria Eugenie of Spain.
Every time someone makes an observaton of Charlene your rhetorical question is have you met her to know . Have you met her not to know?
Religion and spirituality are two different things-Now you come in with the next bit all has been done in secret and we do not know- I am aware that CW has lived out of wedlock- I am aware that she has not done one good deed for the poor. that has been reported.Even betrothed I did not see her attend a special mass for it-.as it it so much a part of Monaco and the history- .I can only hope that in future this will change with a spiritual epiphany. CW's actions are not privileged because she is in the public domain and they speak for themselves so far. Betrothed in backless gown exposing a lot of the corporeal body - that is sooo spiritual.And no mass to follow-Simple algebra
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  #255  
Old 07-20-2010, 11:50 AM
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I didn't know, just because you wore a backless dress you were not spiritual? How does that work?
And why must she convert so her children can be raised catholic? Do her children have to be raised catholic, what if they don't want to?
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  #256  
Old 07-20-2010, 11:55 AM
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What utter nonsense. First of all, if you are Christian what makes Catholocism any better than any Protestant faith. If the requirements for marriage are that she convert, so be it, but how she feels inside is her business. Who are you to judge her "spirituality"? What makes you a maven of peoples' thoughts. And as far as living with Albert these last years would eliminate her being a Christian, there probably are very few who qualify under those guidelines. Victoria did with Daniel, Charles with Camilla, William and Kate, etc, etc., as they all have. Those days of chastity for public observance,my dear are gone forever. Good or bad.
How chastity got into this I do not know.
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  #257  
Old 07-20-2010, 11:55 AM
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Originally Posted by LadyBelle View Post
Do you think Charlene will be less accepted by the citizens of Monaco if she is not Catholic? And lets say she doesn't convert, will she be allowed to participate in festivties and celebrations for Sainte Devote etc?
Maybe, may be not.
We haven't seen Charlene in the celebrations for Sainte Devote, but have seen, for example, Princess Alexandra, and we now she is being raised as a protestant.

Is there any possibility that Charlene keeps as a protestant, marries into the catholic church, and raise her kids catholic?

I'm asking because i know Maxima is still catholic but married into protestant church and is rasing her daughters into this faith.
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  #258  
Old 07-20-2010, 12:00 PM
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Do we know that Charlene is protestant?
Why would we have seen Charlene at the Saint Devote ceremony, it's a royal event and she is not royal. That would be one event I would not expect to see her at.
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  #259  
Old 07-20-2010, 12:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Lumutqueen View Post
I didn't know, just because you wore a backless dress you were not spiritual? How does that work?
And why must she convert so her children can be raised catholic? Do her children have to be raised catholic, what if they don't want to?
The corporeal body should be covered as it belongs to God whose blessings you ask of on an occasion like a betrothal. Why no mass?. As for the kids - cross that bridge when you come to it.
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  #260  
Old 07-20-2010, 12:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Jaya View Post
The corporeal body should be covered as it belongs to God whose blessings you ask of on an occasion like a betrothal. Why no mass?. As for the kids - cross that bridge when you come to it.
Mass? I'm confused? There needs to be mass when she got engaged?
This all sounds slightly out-dated, covering up your body because it belongs to God.
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