The Future of the Danish Monarchy


If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
By your logic, in another 10 years or so — 20 at the outset — it's Christian who will be fully in touch with the rising generations and Mary and Frederik who will be passing the reins and best poised to take on roles of "senior advisers in the wings".

Was that a question for me?

Actually no. The important thing for me, is the age of the heir.

I'd say the most ideal time for a monarch is from 45 years old. That's when they IMO appeal most to the broadest segment of the population.
Where they have the most energy, combined with lots of experience and with will and energy to implement reforms.
And they generally don't have small children at that age.
Once an heir pass 60 or even 65. Then it becomes a "Prince Charles."

So yes, M&F would ideally have a considerably shorter span to reign than QMII, if Christian is to take over when he is 45-50 years old.
That is nevertheless still a reign of some 30 years.
 
Not your argument, but the insistence that QM doesn't resonate with the populace anymore and so she's currently in the way of Mary and Frederik who understand young people and will make sure the monarchy is up-to-date. It seems to me with that logic, Christian will be reigning the second his parents are no longer considered "with it".

Edit: But this is also heading into "Future of the Danish Monarchy" territory, perhaps.
 
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And I am still waiting for the finger to be laid on the sore spot. What exactly is what hinders today's Danish monarchy under Queen Margrethe II and would improve with Frederik ?
 
Where these questions for me or Izzie?

I don't mind holding back, if you wish to have Izzie to elaborate. ?

Anyway it's lunchtime.
 
Just a general remark. Beause the given portrayal in the last posts is that a sort of moulded and cobwebbed sleepy monarchy which urgently needs a firm booster in F&M. But all I see is a successful, efficient and well-managed monarchy with the highest approval ratings in Europe. So I am a bit surprised by the hurry to have MII replaced.
 
(...) Not least because M&F are already the de facto regent couple.

How exactly? :ermm: They've stepped up their roles in the last couple of years, sure, but I'd say there's still a fairly long way from their current positions to that of a regent couple.

I have noticed certain reporters pushing a "Mary (and Frederik) is running the monarchy" narrative. Not only do I think that's extremely incorrect and a slight to QMII and her person, I also think that has more to do with said reporters and their own sentiments on M&F.
 
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Was that a question for me?

Actually no. The important thing for me, is the age of the heir.

I'd say the most ideal time for a monarch is from 45 years old. That's when they IMO appeal most to the broadest segment of the population.
Where they have the most energy, combined with lots of experience and with will and energy to implement reforms.
And they generally don't have small children at that age.
Once an heir pass 60 or even 65. Then it becomes a "Prince Charles."

So yes, M&F would ideally have a considerably shorter span to reign than QMII, if Christian is to take over when he is 45-50 years old.
That is nevertheless still a reign of some 30 years.

I also think that this is the ideal age for someone to become a monarch.
Frederik and Mary are at the best time to reign, but as Queen Margrethe II will never abdicate, they will have to wait.
As a matter of fact, I think the Danish monarchy is the safest in Europe, the royal family is very popular.
 
Just a general remark. Beause the given portrayal in the last posts is that a sort of moulded and cobwebbed sleepy monarchy which urgently needs a firm booster in F&M. But all I see is a successful, efficient and well-managed monarchy with the highest approval ratings in Europe. So I am a bit surprised by the hurry to have MII replaced.

IMO more a question of using M&F while they are in their prime and relatable to the broadest segment of the population.
If we stick to the current tradition of serving until death, we will by the end of this century have a situation where several heirs are well into their 80's.
And some monarchs are more dominant than others and don't want to implement reforms. We have seen that before, we even see that today.
I.e. a situation where the heir cannot exercise his/her influence and implement the natural reforms and adaptations that are necessary in order to keep the monarchy relevant for as broad a segment as possible.

Admittedly QMII has allowed some changes and reforms to take place. Some on her own initiatives, like inviting the spouse of same sex relationships. (That was before same sex marriages were legal, and they were only registered as spouses.)
But others, like the recent releasing of private photos has Frederik (or perhaps even Joachim's) fingerprints all over it. Because how to use the Internet is not something that comes natural to QMII. She admits that openly.

Because of course M&F appeal to a broader segment than QMII. That's only natural. It would actually be deeply worrying if that was not the case!
It's not as much as QMII getting old, because had QMII been 21 when she got on the throne, she would naturally appeal to a smaller segment of the population. The agegroup of say 40+ might instead look more to an older uncle or aunt of hers.

So yes, the DRF runs well - now.
But with a 95 year old QMII on the throne and Frederik well into his 60's, wouldn't there be a risk of the dust beginning to settle?

How exactly? :ermm: They've stepped up their roles in the last couple of years, sure, but I'd say there's still a fairly long way from their current positions to that of a regent couple.

I have noticed certain reporters pushing a "Mary (and Frederik) is running the monarchy" narrative. Not only do I think that's extremely incorrect and a slight to QMII, I also think that has more to do with said reporters and their own sentiments on M&F.

Because they are.

Who handles official incoming and outgoing visits?
Who handles incoming state visits, apart from hosting the gala dinner?
Outgoing state visits now very much rely on Frederik.
Who heads and leads the most public events and campaigns?
Who are the younger people mainly listening to, following and see as rolemodels? - (Of course insofar as they are interested in royalty.)
Who score highest on the glamour scale?
Who are the most interesting and most followed both by Danish and foreign press?

QMII still have her eagerly awaited and just as keenly watched New Year speeches.
She is still The Queen.
She still has a very sharp mind and her delightful and very frank interviews and portraits are a huge hit, when shown on flow-TV. - Which not many young watch. (Even though the TV companies seem to think they can attract the younger people...)

QMII is the grandmother of the nation. A well liked, very respected and even loved grandmother. A grandmother who will be deeply lamented when she is gone.

But...

But symbolically speaking the king and queen were traditionally seen as the mother and father of a nation.
That's a role M&F fits now - but not in 20 years.
 
IMO more a question of using M&F while they are in their prime and relatable to the broadest segment of the population.
If we stick to the current tradition of serving until death, we will by the end of this century have a situation where several heirs are well into their 80's.
And some monarchs are more dominant than others and don't want to implement reforms. We have seen that before, we even see that today.
I.e. a situation where the heir cannot exercise his/her influence and implement the natural reforms and adaptations that are necessary in order to keep the monarchy relevant for as broad a segment as possible.

Admittedly QMII has allowed some changes and reforms to take place. Some on her own initiatives, like inviting the spouse of same sex relationships. (That was before same sex marriages were legal, and they were only registered as spouses.)
But others, like the recent releasing of private photos has Frederik (or perhaps even Joachim's) fingerprints all over it. Because how to use the Internet is not something that comes natural to QMII. She admits that openly.

Because of course M&F appeal to a broader segment than QMII. That's only natural. It would actually be deeply worrying if that was not the case!
It's not as much as QMII getting old, because had QMII been 21 when she got on the throne, she would naturally appeal to a smaller segment of the population. The agegroup of say 40+ might instead look more to an older uncle or aunt of hers.

So yes, the DRF runs well - now.
But with a 95 year old QMII on the throne and Frederik well into his 60's, wouldn't there be a risk of the dust beginning to settle?



Because they are.

Who handles official incoming and outgoing visits?
Who handles incoming state visits, apart from hosting the gala dinner?
Outgoing state visits now very much rely on Frederik.
Who heads and leads the most public events and campaigns?
Who are the younger people mainly listening to, following and see as rolemodels? - (Of course insofar as they are interested in royalty.)
Who score highest on the glamour scale?
Who are the most interesting and most followed both by Danish and foreign press?

QMII still have her eagerly awaited and just as keenly watched New Year speeches.
She is still The Queen.
She still has a very sharp mind and her delightful and very frank interviews and portraits are a huge hit, when shown on flow-TV. - Which not many young watch. (Even though the TV companies seem to think they can attract the younger people...)

QMII is the grandmother of the nation. A well liked, very respected and even loved grandmother. A grandmother who will be deeply lamented when she is gone.

But...

But symbolically speaking the king and queen were traditionally seen as the mother and father of a nation.
That's a role M&F fits now - but not in 20 years.

Thank you Muhler. This is what I've been trying to say. Would it be safe to say that M&F handle what could be considered the heavy lifting for lack of a better term. Since when have they basically handled the bulk of state and official visits? It seems they are the ones on the pulse of current topics and issues reflected in the causes they champion. And as far as them being perceived as de facto regents at this point...maybe it is also the optics as well some look at what regents of a comparable age group are handling and how the issues they focus on and activities they undertake are in the lane or level. I'm also curious if there was any commentary during Frederik's 50th birthday that it felt like the Birthday of more that a CP?

Would it be safe to say that maybe one area where the DRF is possibly not as at the forefront as it could be now is in going more green? If that makes sense? For example starting a transition to electric vehicles just to give the most basic example? Would that even be their decision alone?
 
Because they are.

Who handles official incoming and outgoing visits?
Who handles incoming state visits, apart from hosting the gala dinner?
Outgoing state visits now very much rely on Frederik.
Who heads and leads the most public events and campaigns?
Who are the younger people mainly listening to, following and see as rolemodels? - (Of course insofar as they are interested in royalty.)
Who score highest on the glamour scale?
Who are the most interesting and most followed both by Danish and foreign press?

QMII still have her eagerly awaited and just as keenly watched New Year speeches.
She is still The Queen.
She still has a very sharp mind and her delightful and very frank interviews and portraits are a huge hit, when shown on flow-TV. - Which not many young watch. (Even though the TV companies seem to think they can attract the younger people...)

QMII is the grandmother of the nation. A well liked, very respected and even loved grandmother. A grandmother who will be deeply lamented when she is gone.

But...

But symbolically speaking the king and queen were traditionally seen as the mother and father of a nation.
That's a role M&F fits now - but not in 20 years.

... Maybe in your opinion, but it's certainly a sentiment that can be debated.

I suppose to begin with, it depends how you define the term "regent couple". If your definition is the couple that generally receives the most attention, sure (I'd then argue it's the wrong term to use but sure). If your definition is that M&F are the, say, WA and Máxima to QMII's Beatrix, then no. I think they're far from in all respects but official being the King and Queen (and I'm even in the age group I think was outsourced to M&F on the previous page ;)).

As I see it, M&F's increase in duties (they've always had the attention locked down) has been a natural consequence of QMII's preparing them for their future roles, QMII's own health declining and also first Henrik's retirement and death and subsequently going from having little J&M to having even less J&M.

That makes their roles very prominent but I still think symbolically and in public opinion, there'd be little disagreement that QMII still very much still fulfils the mother of the nation role. Something that has become all the more apparent during the pandemic.

Additionally, I think there's a chance (certainly if they follow QMII's example) that lots of what makes M&F popular and relatable to the general public would be something they'd scale down on once they assume that role. There's a lot more leverage without the actual title.

Saying that M&F in all respects but official currently function as the regent couple while encouraging the implementation of abdication is also a bit of an oxymoron to me. Surely, if they're de facto the regent couple all an abdication now would do is add the title to their names and not much else?
 
De facto regent couple.

The Regent Couple is the reigning couple in name and deed.

That's what M&F to a very large extent are today, in the sense that they lift the main burden of work within the DRF.
The regent couple is also, per definition the main characters in the royal roadshow - I'll claim that also cover M&F.
QMII is still there, but a little more in the background.

I will also claim that there is a considerable difference in M&F's role at present, being the IMO de facto regent couple, and actually being the Regent Couple.
As with any job, there is a considerable difference between acting in a function and having that function.
In the former you are still basically a substitute. In the latter the job is yours to shape and adapt to what you want to do with it.

I disagree with you regarding QMII during the pandemic, I actually think your argument backs my claim.

It was very much M&F who went out and encouraged people, by example, to follow the restrictions and guidelines and urge vaccinations.
In that sense M&F were the mother and father.

It was when things started to creak a little in the seams that the wise old, respected and well liked grandmother opened her mouth. Saying it's inconsiderate not comply by the restrictions.

--------------

- I have been asked why an abdication would even be necessary. what is wrong with the system as it is?

I'd like to turn that question around:
Should Frederik (and probably later on Christian) wait until he is 70 or older before he can be allowed to make his personal mark. QMII has had 50 years to put her mark on the DRF and Danish history.
Because QMII could easily live to her late 90's.

And considering their health and modern medical treatment is more than likely M&F will live long lives as well.
Christian, his generation can expect to live past 100.

Something has to happen for the first time. And the monarchies of Spain, Belgium are still around. The Netherlands have had the system of abdications for generations. That monarchy shows no serious signs of falling.
Even the Papal State recently had a head of state who abdicated.

Do we, the Danes, want to see Frederik as the next Prince Charles?
 
Charles keeps being brought up as the 'must avoid at all costs', but on the other hand, he's done more as Prince of Wales than any other Prince of Wales, ever, he doesn't particularly want his mother dead, and he's long ago learned to enjoy the freedoms of speech and action he has by not having the top job — the last of which I believe was already mentioned here. I think anyone who feels sorry for Charles or sees him as a negative example doesn't really understand Charles, what he's managed to do, or the fact he's pretty content as he is right now.

Frederik could and should be so lucky, frankly.
 
Or he simply got used to it?
And made the best of it.

Of course he is not going to say: I hate being in this here waiting situation.

Nor does he wish his mother dead, surely. I sincerely hope not!

My point is: If they look like a regent couple, sound like a regent couple and walk like a regent couple - they are a regent couple. So make them the regent couple.

I will not presume to go in and tell the British that they should introduce abdications, it's not my monarchy. What works there may not work in DK and vice versa.

I will however have serious problems drumming up even five ordinary Danes on the streets who would think it's great that Frederik was still Crown Prince at 73.
 
Okay, you go tell Miss Daisy she's holding Fred and Denmark back and she needs to step down.

I will get the popcorn and watch. ?

But, again, I think it belongs in "Future of the Danish Monarchy".
 
Charles keeps being brought up as the 'must avoid at all costs', but on the other hand, he's done more as Prince of Wales than any other Prince of Wales, ever, he doesn't particularly want his mother dead, and he's long ago learned to enjoy the freedoms of speech and action he has by not having the top job — the last of which I believe was already mentioned here. I think anyone who feels sorry for Charles or sees him as a negative example doesn't really understand Charles, what he's managed to do, or the fact he's pretty content as he is right now.

Frederik could and should be so lucky, frankly.

Charles has also expressed that he has prepared for what you call the 'top job' his entire life; he is quite ready! So, I am quite sure he would be happy to take over, especially if that would NOT involve the death of his mother.

In addition, I don't think William is looking at Charles and thinking: I would love to be a 'trainee' until I'm in my 70s. If needed, William and Catherine could take over... While they might benefit from a few more years under their belt (and their children a little older), they don't need a few decades...

So, I fully agree with Muhler that for the health of a monarchy (and also personal happiness of the royals themselves) handing over the reigns while the heir is in their fourties is excellent timing. I don't expect future generations (i.e., the current younger generations, for example William or Frederick in the case of Denmark) to stick to the no-abdication principle. However, neither one would like to be a very short-lived monarch either, so they'll most likely try to find a balance: probably a reign of at least 20 years (if they have those years) and preferably handing over well before the heir is of retirement age (so at the latest in their 50s).
 
Charles has also expressed that he has prepared for what you call the 'top job' his entire life; he is quite ready! So, I am quite sure he would be happy to take over, especially if that would NOT involve the death of his mother.

In addition, I don't think William is looking at Charles and thinking: I would love to be a 'trainee' until I'm in my 70s. If needed, William and Catherine could take over... While they might benefit from a few more years under their belt (and their children a little older), they don't need a few decades...

I don't call it the top job; they do. And there is no way he's going to obtain it other than the death or incapacity of his mother, so saying he'd love another option is pointless. He's done pretty amazingly well with what he has. William has been quoted saying "I don't lie awake at night" wondering when he'll be king. The que sera sera principle works well enough for now.

Perhaps leave the Prince of Wales out of discussions of monarchies where abdication is a slight possibility or an established precedent? It's apples and pears.
 
I don't call it the top job; they do. And there is no way he's going to obtain it other than the death or incapacity of his mother, so saying he'd love another option is pointless. He's done pretty amazingly well with what he has. William has been quoted saying "I don't lie awake at night" wondering when he'll be king. The que sera sera principle works well enough for now.

Perhaps leave the Prince of Wales out of discussions of monarchies where abdication is a slight possibility or an established precedent? It's apples and pears.

Why is it 'apples and pears'? The situation of Charles could be the situation of heirs in monarchies where abdication is not established practice; so it provides an excellent example of what these monarchies might face in this age where people in general get much older than in past centuries. It shows very well what many think is not in the best interest of the monarchy as an institution in the long run (that doesn't mean that people don't value queen Elizabeth or queen Margrethe or Harald etc).

I don't think it is good for a monarchy if people start to pity the heir for having to wait so long and calling for him to be skipped. While Charles knows fully well that he will have to wait for his mother to die to become king; that's probably the case for several other heirs as well. So, while very few would wish their parents to die (unless they know they are suffering), at the same time heirs might (secretly) wish that they wouldn't have to wait for their parent to die to take on the position they've been preparing for their whole life and wish to do that well before their peers retire! In addition, they might also honestly wish for their parents to allow themselves to lay the burden down at a certain point and enjoy what they have left of life without the feeling that it would be a failure to do so and with the added joy of seeing their child take up the position they know so well. Again, that doesn't mean that these heirs that are 'waiting' don't try to make the best of the situation until that moment arrives.

If I am not mistaken, Margrethe herself expressed how hard that transition is: not only loosing your parent but at exactly the same time also having to follow in their footsteps (without them being around to discuss anything that you might run into; and little time to grieve).
 
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Okay, you go tell Miss Daisy she's holding Fred and Denmark back and she needs to step down.

I will get the popcorn and watch. ?

But, again, I think it belongs in "Future of the Danish Monarchy".

"Daisy" might have made up her mind on the topic of abdication, as has Queen Elizabeth, but I think future generations of royals might have a different attitude about it. The real problem is that it would be unfair for Charles, or Frederik for that matter, to give up the throne after waiting until their 70s to become King. With increased life expectancy, if someone doesn't break the cycle at some point, a situation like that of Prince Charles can keep repeating itself. Spain, Belgium and the Netherlands are in a comfortable situation because they all have kings who ascended in their 40s or early 50s and can still reign for 30 years (give or take), and "leave their marks" as Muhler said before stepping down for their successors to take over at a similarly reasonable age.

The issue of what is best for the monarchy is, however, a more complicated one. Queen Elizabeth II for example is way more popular than Prince Charles, but William appears by the polls to be nearly as popular as his grandmother. I don't know the poll numbers in Denmark to make an informed comment. In any case, I guess it is fair to say that crown princely couples in their 40s who are still reasonably good-looking and have good-looking teenage kids tend to be attractive and popular (I know those are very shallow reasons, but I am just stating what I see in practice). When a Crown Prince, however, waits too long to ascend and , as his own children move into adulthood and start to eclipse him ,his "popularity capital" begins to fade.
 
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Have people got used to having younger leaders? Joe Biden is an obvious exception, but it's now quite common for presidents and prime ministers to be in their 40s. That would have been considered too young to have the necessary experience/gravitas at one time, and some Victorian political leaders were in their 80s. That doesn't affect the position of an heir who's still "waiting" in their 70s, but I wonder if people have just got used to seeing younger men and women on the world stage.


It's actually quite strange that, as life expectancy's increased, politicians have got younger.
 
Queen Margrethe II of Denmark have serious health problems at her age, and I hope the operation goes well, in the meantime queen Margrethe II should have given prince Frederik the opportunity to become king long time ago, after all the queen had for long time problems with her health. Thats what happened with princess Beatrix of the Netherlands, the princess had also health problems and decided that her son prince Willem Alexander should be the next king of the Netherlands. Now king Willem Alexander is king and princess Beatrix (beside her health problems) enjoys her retirement with her favorite hobby is sculpture etc etc. Iam sure that prince Frederik & princess Mary are ready to be the next king & queen of Denmark. That is my opinion.
 
Queen Margrethe II of Denmark have serious health problems at her age, and I hope the operation goes well, in the meantime queen Margrethe II should have given prince Frederik the opportunity to become king long time ago, after all the queen had for long time problems with her health. Thats what happened with princess Beatrix of the Netherlands, the princess had also health problems and decided that her son prince Willem Alexander should be the next king of the Netherlands. Now king Willem Alexander is king and princess Beatrix (beside her health problems) enjoys her retirement with her favorite hobby is sculpture etc etc. Iam sure that prince Frederik & princess Mary are ready to be the next king & queen of Denmark. That is my opinion.

When queen Beatrix announced her abdication, she specifically stated that she did not abdicate because of health problems! Instead, her reason for abdicating was that it was time for the next generation to take over.

For an 85-year old, princess Beatrix is still doing remarkably well and still takes on royal duties (unlike for example king Albert and king Juan Carlos) - only last week she attended the important remembrance of the 1953 flood in Zeeland. She had some mobility issues (knees) in the past but that's about it.
 
I don't think Queen Margrethe II will abdicate. She may further reduce the official events she participates in and will delegate more responsibilities to Frederik and Mary, but will remain the head of state. But let's see how the surgery and recovery goes in the coming months.
 
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When queen Beatrix announced her abdication, she specifically stated that she did not abdicate because of health problems! Instead, her reason for abdicating was that it was time for the next generation to take over.

For an 85-year old, princess Beatrix is still doing remarkably well and still takes on royal duties (unlike for example king Albert and king Juan Carlos) - only last week she attended the important remembrance of the 1953 flood in Zeeland. She had some mobility issues (knees) in the past but that's about it.

Is mobilty issues with her knees not a health problem?
 
They may be, but that did not influence her decision. As 'Somebody' says, Beatrix explicitely stated on national television that she did not abdicate due to declining health but due to a conviction that it was time for the next generation to take over.

As others said, Queen Margrethe II is not likely to abdicate. Each monarch will make their own decision on that issue, as they should.
 
So much respect for Princess Beatrix for being aware enough and selfless enough to know when it was time to let the next generation take over, have time to make their own mark and move the monarchy forward.

When a monarch has to delegate more and more sites to the heir and other members of the royal family...maybe it is time for a transition. Especially of they are unable to travel abroad...which means no state visits, which I believe is an important part of the job. If more and more daily duties are delegated, they are seen less and less...again, maybe time for a transition.
 
Back problems are the most painful of all bone related conditions, your movements feel you are paralyzed and a simple action, like trying to get out of bed, is a struggle.

I doubt she will abdicate but do a Lichtenstein, hold on for 10, 20 or 30 years as a proud person that won't share the spotlight.

But this condition makes me understand the actions she took upon herself recently with her family. If Frederick becomes some sort of Regent for the next few months or years until she recovers at least QMII took care of the family issues for him.
 
I don't too see Margarethe abdicating. She has even stated probably many times that she is not going to do that.


And what comes to Beatrix's abdication it is just Dutch habit their monarchs to abdicate. All of previous six Dutch monarchs only Willliam II and III have reigned until their deaths.
 
I don't too see Margarethe abdicating. She has even stated probably many times that she is not going to do that.


And what comes to Beatrix's abdication it is just Dutch habit their monarchs to abdicate. All of previous six Dutch monarchs only Willliam II and III have reigned until their deaths.

Agree.
The Dutch monarch abdicating is now a tradition.
Denmark is different.

If Margrethe were to abdicate, all that obligations would be on Frederik and Mary's back. Remember, they have 4 children and I'm sure they appreciate all the time they can spend with them.
And I'm sure Margrethe is also aware of that.
Plus, she feels it's her duty to be the monarch for as long as she can and I admire that.
Mentally she's perfectly fit and very intelligent.

Today, we live in a society were we are all trying to do our best for inclusivity of people with all kinds of handicaps. Back problems and mobility issues shouldn't be reasons for monarch to abdicate.
Margrethe has full support of Frederik and Mary, Benedikte will be active for some more years I suppose, in few years we can expect for Christian to start undertaking engagements, perhaps even Isabella.
So, Margrethe has people around her who can do the activities that are difficult for her.
Late Queen Elizabeth II didn't leave UK for state visits for many years and there were no problems with that.
 
she has also said she could abdicate for health reasons.

i doubt the public would accept a monarch we rarely see on the job.
that would reflect poorly on QMII. ie: seen as stubborn.

apart from that it is time for m&f to take the stage. abdication or retiring does not mean oblivion. she could still act as rigsforstander and advisor.
 
so, why cant teh queen do less duties, if she is older and not in the best of health, and let Mary and Fred take over more duties?
 
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