Schackenborg Castle, Tønder

[Muhler]

BT has a brief article about why Schackenborg went to the DRF, to be exact Joachim, despite there being several live Schacks around.
Derfor sagde Mik Schack nej til at arve Schackenborg | www.bt.dk

The next in line for the manor was Mik Schack, who is now a pretty wellknown name in his own right in DK as a musician and journalist and he explains very frankly why:
"....My family has had Schackenborg for eleven generations but (I) couldn't afford to inherit it, so in 1978 it was handed over to the DRF. My father told me it was hopeless with the debt and that it would be had for a Copenhagener-boy (it also means someone who is very urban) like me. I wasn't going out to play farmer, because I had just opened (a cafe) and was very busy there".


- The debt and the state of the manor came as a surprise to the DRF, from all account I've heard. Leading to a major rift between the DRF and the Schack family.
And Joachim is still renovating the manor, which from account by Alexandra and Joachim was very old fashioned and in a prety poor state. The money rasised as a public wedding present at their wedding was very much needed.

 

[rchainho]

do the palace has the letters A & J in the gates?

 

[Viv]

No, the monogram was changed shortly before Prince Joachim married Marie Cavallier. Fortunately they didn't have to change the entire gate, but just the "medallion" with the initials in it. So it's now J & M !

viv

 

[FasterB]

do the palace has the letters A & J in the gates?

Here you can see the two joint monograms: ALEXANDRA: SPØGER PÅ SCHACKEN-BORG - - SE og HØR

 

[Muhler]

That is correct, but as you can tell from the article FasterB kindly posted, Alexandra is not and will not be completely forgotten at Schackenborg.
Her and Joachim's monogram in the gate itself has indeed been replaced by the new monogram of Joachim and our Marie's, but another monogram, A&J, has been incased in the wall of the gate-house and that monogram will remain for historical reasons. Alexandra is after all a part of the history of Schackenborg.

- An elegant and neat solution I think. Not only is Alexandra a part of the history of the manor, but there is also Nikolai and Felix to consider. They may appreciate that their mother's presence at Schackenobrg hasn't been completely eradicated
It also says something about Joachim and the mature way their divorce was handled. Many in Joachim's place would have torn the monogram from the brickwork and thrown it on the mitten in the anger and bitterness that is so common after a divorce.

 

[Muhler]

Inside Schackenborg Slot in 2006 and again in 2010. https://app.box.com/s/9ylnh9sozy3gyu36xpby

 

[lyndaW]

What ever happened to their dog Winston? We see Apple off & on

 

[Muhler]

BB's Ken Richter reports that a newly restored 250 year old barn on the Schackenborg estate has been severely damaged by the recent storm.
It received some damage from the last storm a couple of months ago and this storm reall shook the place up!

The barn is used for cultural activities winthin Tønder municipality and as such it's not used to actually store hay and straw.

 

[lyndaW]

Cote d'Azur, Montauroux, France

I read somewhere that Joachim & Marie purchased a home called Cote d'Azur in Montauroux, France...............can someone tell me something about this home?apartment?villa?estate?
This makes sense do to Chateau de Caix being given to Frederik & Mary

 

[Muhler]

From what I understand that was meant as an investment.
I don't believe they intend to go there on holidays, but rather they rent it to other holiday makers.
IIRC our Marie's mother has some property in that part of France as well. Perhaps she's keeping an eye on the villa?

 

[Muhler]

That's odd, I know I wrote this down a litte while ago...

Whatever, here we go again:

Summary of article in Billed Bladet #16, 2014.
Written by Ken Richter.

Joachim is a part of a consortium called the Five Farms, which sell and market a number of products though the consortium.
Joachim has previously among many other things sold beer and the Schackenborg Snaps (a bitter) through that consortium.
Now he has launched two more products. Schackenborg Vodka and Schackenborg Dry Gin, both at 44 %. - In the interest of this forum I will volunteer to sample these products. Someone has to do it, so I'll sacrifice myself for the cause.

(Sorry about the break, I had to polish my halo).
The consortium is going reasonably well. Last surplus was for 500.000 DKK and the equity is close to Seven million DKK.

 

[polyesco]

Now he has launched two more products. Schackenborg Vodka and Schackenborg Dry Gin, both at 44 %. - In the interest of this forum I will volunteer to sample these products. Someone has to do it, so I'll sacrifice myself for the cause.

.

You are too kind!
but yes please report back

 

[MarcosFenn]

So was Toender formerly in the Duchy of Schleswig-Holstein?

If so, was Schackenborg's status upgraded to Royal when Schleswig was incorporated into the Kingdom proper?

 

[Muhler]

So was Toender formerly in the Duchy of Schleswig-Holstein?

If so, was Schackenborg's status upgraded to Royal when Schleswig was incorporated into the Kingdom proper?

Correct, Tönder was a part of Schleswig/Slesvig (later Germany) until 1920, when Tønder became a part of Denmark.
Northern Slesvig (DK spelling) is the only part of the original three duchies that is now a part of Denmark.

Schackenborg belonged to the Schack family for I don't know how many generations until they ran out of heirs. And the rest of the family were not interested in, let alone could afford to take over a pretty neglected manor, so it was testamented to Joachim.
It is now Joachim's property but it's strictly speaking only a royal residence in the sense that Joachim is a member of the DRF.

 

[MarcosFenn]

Correct, Tönder was a part of Schleswig/Slesvig (later Germany) until 1920, when Tønder became a part of Denmark.
Northern Slesvig (DK spelling) is the only part of the original three duchies that is now a part of Denmark.

Schackenborg belonged to the Schack family for I don't know how many generations until they ran out of heirs. And the rest of the family were not interested in, let alone could afford to take over a pretty neglected manor, so it was testamented to Joachim.
It is now Joachim's property but it's strictly speaking only a royal residence in the sense that Joachim is a member of the DRF.

Thank-you!

It seems all part of the unfolding narrative of, Where is Denmark? underlying the probably now settled Schleswig-Holstein question.

 

[Muhler]

Thank-you!

It seems all part of the unfolding narrative of, Where is Denmark? underlying the probably now settled Schleswig-Holstein question.

I should say so.

The DRF visit the minorities on both sides of the border from time to time. You may recall a few years ago, how M&F visited a kindergarten for the German minority and told about the dragon they have at home in the basement. (I've been waiting to use that smiley. )

 

[MarcosFenn]

I should say so.

The DRF visit the minorities on both sides of the border from time to time. You may recall a few years ago, how M&F visited a kindergarten for the German minority and told about the dragon they have at home in the basement. (I've been waiting to use that smiley. )

Interestingly there is also a German-speaking minority in Eastern Belgium, in the Ostakantone, where native German-speakers are citizens of the King of Belgium. it sounds similar to the situation of native German-speakers in southern Denmark who are citizens of the Danish Kingdom.

The Belgian situation came about after a number of changes of jurisdiction following the World Wars.

To make the German-speakers feel included, it's traditional for Kings of the Belgians sometimes to make speeches, or at least parts of speeches, in German.

 

[Muhler]

Here is the interview with Joachim in this weeks BB.

Apart from captions and the first few lines which were an introduction I have translated the entire interview, without personal comments, so that you can interprete the interview yourselves.
There is little hard facts but quite a few things between the lines IMO.

Here you go: https://app.box.com/s/pjjxb0alao7v92pkdhfn

And the article for reference and case you wish for a clarification from Danish members:
https://app.box.com/s/qskoshs9kwl4a9hccvod
https://app.box.com/s/hqiryjlk49876no5t0ll

 

[Muhler]

Summary of a Q&A in Billed Bladet #31, 2014.
Where a Jørgen Paulsen asks: Is there an explanation as to why Joachim and Marie's sale of Schackenborg is not made public? I think their disposition seems odd.

Jon Bloch Skipper replies that he believes there are a number of reasons for moving away from Schackenborg, including that they no doubt found it difficult to combine their royal duties with a permanent home with small children in Southern Jutland and also a wish from Joachim to be closer (physically) to his children. But also that the economic reasons have been a factor as well. Running a farm (and a manor) during a financial crisis is not easy.
However, personally Jon Bloch Skipper think the decision was wrong for a number of reasons.
The couple expose themselves unecessarily to accusations of questionable economical transactions, to accusations of putting their own convinience before their royal duties and to accusations of putting Copenhagen before the rest of the country.
It breaks with a tradition of the DRF being physically present all over the country.
The decision is a personal defeat for Joachim.
And last but not least it means the DRF is vacating the most royalist part of DK, Southern Jutland - for which it meant a lot of to Joachim and Maire living there.

- Sometimes Jon Bloch Skipper can be pretty stern in his replies, this is one of the harsher!
In Joachim's defence I will point out that while Jon Bloch Skipper is a historian and a renouned expert in the DRF, he is not a farmer, nor an economist
While he arguments are valid, I do find his argument about there being a tradition for the DRF to be present all over the country to be wrong.
The DRF travel and live for brief periods all over the country, but permanent residencies for the most prominent members is not a tradition.
The thing that comes closest was Queen Ingrid staying at Gråsten during the summer months, but by then she had semi-retired.
I do however wholeheartedly agree with Jon Bloch Skipper that the sale of Schackenborg was a personal defeat for Joachim - some thing I believe Joachim is very much aware of!

 

[gerry]

Summary of a Q&A in Billed Bladet #31, 2014.
Where a Jørgen Paulsen asks: Is there an explanation as to why Joachim and Marie's sale of Schackenborg is not made public? I think their disposition seems odd.

Jon Bloch Skipper replies that he believes there are a number of reasons for moving away from Schackenborg, including that they no doubt found it difficult to combine their royal duties with a permanent home with small children in Southern Jutland and also a wish from Joachim to be closer (physically) to his children. But also that the economic reasons have been a factor as well. Running a farm (and a manor) during a financial crisis is not easy.
However, personally Jon Bloch Skipper think the decision was wrong for a number of reasons.
The couple expose themselves unecessarily to accusations of questionable economical transactions, to accusations of putting their own convinience before their royal duties and to accusations of putting Copenhagen before the rest of the country.
It breaks with a tradition of the DRF being physically present all over the country.
The decision is a personal defeat for Joachim.
And last but not least it means the DRF is vacating the most royalist part of DK, Southern Jutland - for which it meant a lot of to Joachim and Maire living there.

- Sometimes Jon Bloch Skipper can be pretty stern in his replies, this is one of the harsher!
In Joachim's defence I will point out that while Jon Bloch Skipper is a historian and a renouned expert in the DRF, he is not a farmer, nor an economist
While he arguments are valid, I do find his argument about there being a tradition for the DRF to be present all over the country to be wrong.
The DRF travel and live for brief periods all over the country, but permanent residencies for the most prominent members is not a tradition.
The thing that comes closest was Queen Ingrid staying at Gråsten during the summer months, but by then she had semi-retired.
I do however wholeheartedly agree with Jon Bloch Skipper that the sale of Schackenborg was a personal defeat for Joachim - some thing I believe Joachim is very much aware of!

Thank you for this Muhler; I wonder however if the sale of Schackenborg is more a decision based on healthy realism than any sense of personal defeat. Running a farm is a full time job in itself; with Prince Joachim's many other commitments, perhaps the sale (was it not sold to a foundation?) and move to Copenhagen are the result of hard thinking about the road ahead that the Prince wishes to travel with his family.

 

[Muhler]

Thank you for this Muhler; I wonder however if the sale of Schackenborg is more a decision based on healthy realism than any sense of personal defeat. Running a farm is a full time job in itself; with Prince Joachim's many other commitments, perhaps the sale (was it not sold to a foundation?) and move to Copenhagen are the result of hard thinking about the road ahead that the Prince wishes to travel with his family.

That is certainly my opinion.
I believe Schackenborg would have had to be sold anyway, certainly when Joachim dies and especially as there would be very little to inherit for his four children, even if the manor had continued as a kind of family-foundation.

And yes, Schackenborg was sold to a foundation, - with the premesis that J&M go live there from time to time.

However, I do believe Joachim is feeling a deep sense of defeat. I certainly would in his place, even if selling the manor is the most sensible solution financially.
At least he is not selling an estate that has been in the family for generations - that would have been an even bigger defeat.

 

[gerry]

That is certainly my opinion.
I believe Schackenborg would have had to be sold anyway, certainly when Joachim dies and especially as there would be very little to inherit for his four children, even if the manor had continued as a kind of family-foundation.

And yes, Schackenborg was sold to a foundation, - with the premesis that J&M go live there from time to time.

However, I do believe Joachim is feeling a deep sense of defeat. I certainly would in his place, even if selling the manor is the most sensible solution financially.
At least he is not selling an estate that has been in the family for generations - that would have been an even bigger defeat.

I understand your point of view Muhler; one has dreams: marriage, home, children, interesting job....In Prince Joachim's case, two of these dreams have perhaps not turned out as he had planned; I am certain he will find success elsewhereHe seems a sensible and well-grounded type of person (except maybe for the automobile racing that I really cannot recommend for a family man!)

 

[Muhler]

I understand your point of view Muhler; one has dreams: marriage, home, children, interesting job....In Prince Joachim's case, two of these dreams have perhaps not turned out as he had planned; I am certain he will find success elsewhereHe seems a sensible and well-grounded type of person (except maybe for the automobile racing that I really cannot recommend for a family man!)

Yeah, he'll be fine.

Yes, but his hobby keeps him off the streets (well, sort of) and prevents him from hanging out with the wrong crowd. So our Marie is wise in indulging him.
And afterwards she can admire him for being the victoriuos warrior. Seasoned wives know how to play their husbands... I know, got a master at that game in the house myself.

 

[rchainho]

he has lands? With wich money?

 

[gerry]

Yeah, he'll be fine.

Yes, but his hobby keeps him off the streets (well, sort of) and prevents him from hanging out with the wrong crowd. So our Marie is wise in indulging him.
And afterwards she can admire him for being the victoriuos warrior. Seasoned wives know how to play their husbands... I know, got a master at that game in the house myself.

Point very well taken indeed Muhler!However, in the ordinary scheme of things, now that Prince Joachim is no longer a farmer, is he not supposed to have a job of some sort or will he play the Royal representative role (something like the British 'Air Miles Andy' (admittedly not a nice tag but certainly very descriptive of the role played by the Duke of York!)

 

[Muhler]

he has lands? With wich money?

As a part of his inheritance from the Schack family.
Schackenborg Manor and the lands directly under the estate only constituted some 40 % of the land owned by Joachim.
It is expected he will sell that land as well, but there is no rush.

Point very well taken indeed Muhler!However, in the ordinary scheme of things, now that Prince Joachim is no longer a farmer, is he not supposed to have a job of some sort or will he play the Royal representative role (something like the British 'Air Miles Andy' (admittedly not a nice tag but certainly very descriptive of the role played by the Duke of York!)

That remains to be seen and it will indeed be interesting to see what he will do in the future.

 

[Muhler]

An interesting article about the lands around Schackenborg that Joachim still owns: Prins Joachim bliver stenrig: Så mange millioner giver hans geniale plan - Royale | www.bt.dk

He still owns around 600 hectares and two properties.
Joachim has now begun to sell off that land, as indicated by the then Chief of Court, Ove Ullerup.

Joachim has sold 12 hectares out of the 600 for a price of 2.4 million DKK.

BT has estimated the value of his land and properties in today's market at some 97 million DKK.

- Combined with the income after the sale of Schackenborg, the value of his new house and what other investments he may have made, he is in my conservative estimation wealthier that the rest of the DRF combined.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

Why did the Shack family specifically donate it do Prince Joachim?

 

[polyesco]

An interesting article about the lands around Schackenborg that Joachim still owns: Prins Joachim bliver stenrig: Så mange millioner giver hans geniale plan - Royale | www.bt.dk

He still owns around 600 hectares and two properties.
Joachim has now begun to sell off that land, as indicated by the then Chief of Court, Ove Ullerup.

Joachim has sold 12 hectares out of the 600 for a price of 2.4 million DKK.

BT has estimated the value of his land and properties in today's market at some 97 million DKK.

- Combined with the income after the sale of Schackenborg, the value of his new house and what other investments he may have made, he is in my conservative estimation wealthier that the rest of the DRF combined.

wealthier than all the DRF combined? nice for Joachim and this great deal.

another article on the selling of the lands, I think they interviewed some people that live close by
Prins Joachim geniale plan: Så stenrig kan han blive - Nationalt | www.b.dk

"Andreas Knudsen, Møgeltønder: "It's fine for me that Prince Joachim selling off its land. What does he need the ground to when he lives in Copenhagen? I must admit that I never noticed the prince and his family when they lived in Møgeltønder. They were still not home at the castle so often, so it makes me actually not that big that he sells out of the ground. How I actually believe many others in Møgeltønder have it. It is probably most tourists who think it is a shame that he does not live here anymore."

I like this quote
"Not just rich but filthy rich. Prince Joachim has a sale of 12 hectares of land kicked off a process of selling his land in southern Jutland, which can eventually enrich the prince with 97 million. kr."



this just adds more for me, that Joachim should pay Alexandra appendage and for Nikolai and Felix and not the government anymore

 

[Muhler]

Well, I don't see why Joachim should pay to Alexandra. She got her share of the worth of the estate when she divorced Joachim. Not only that but she is in the process of being divorced from her second husband. Why should the first husband keep paying?

After all if Joachim is supposed to pay Alexandra's full apanage for the rest of her life, he'll soon have no fortune to hand over to his children.

It is however an additional argument for stripping Alexandra of her apanage. Since Joachim and Alexandra combined should surely be able to ensure Nikolai and Felix grow up in a "suitable lifestyle befitting their status".
But still I don't think that will happen until Felix turn eighteen.

Why did the Shack family specifically donate it do Prince Joachim?

They didn't have a direct heir. And other members of the Schack family didn't want to take over the estate. And as Schackenborg was IIRC originally a fief, so it was decided Joachim would take over, against a fitting compensation.
That the estate was neglected came as an unpleasant surprise for the DRF and cost the family a good deal of money. And even that was far from enough. The public donation in connection with Joachim and Alexandra's wedding made a big difference.