The British Nobility thread 1: Ending 2022

[Rudolph]

Regardless of the ruling that’s not going to anywhere in Britain. The government has bigger fish to fry than this.

To make changes to peerages requires acts of Parliament. There not just titles. Peers have legal protection under the law.

The ECHR isn’t exactly the most popular European institution in Britain atm. MPs and peers will tell them to get stuffed.

 

[Denville]

As peers are beng phased out of the legislative process anyway, it seems pointless.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

Five daughters of hereditary peers go to the ECHR to be allowed to stand for election to the House of Lords, see the BBC article here .

Are there any other countries that effectively ban some seats in parliament from being held by women?

More on the case:
The Case - Daughters' Rights

We believe that the Government is in breach of Article 3 of the First Protocol, read with Article 14. […] In 2008, two men in Bosnia-Herzegovina wanted to stand for election to their Upper House and were denied based on their race. They took their case to the European Court of Human Rights and won. Swap race for gender and the cases are identical.​

Article 14 of the Convention

The enjoyment of the rights and freedoms set forth in this Convention shall be secured without discrimination on any ground such as sex, race, colour, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, association with a national minority, property, birth or other status.​

Article 3 of the First Protocol

The High Contracting Parties undertake to hold free elections at reasonable intervals by secret ballot, under conditions which will ensure the free expression of the opinion of the people in the choice of the legislature.​

Legal case to overturn ban on women inheriting peerages | Daily Mail Online

Lawyer Paul Hardy, said: […] 'This cannot be heard in a UK court because national courts are prohibited from adjudicating on the legality of parliamentary procedure.'​

As peers are beng phased out of the legislative process anyway, it seems pointless.

As far as I can tell, proposals to phase out the hereditary peers from the House of Lords are going nowhere.

 

[Spheno]

Women were excluded from the House of Lords until the Life Peerages Act 1958, passed to address the declining number of active members, made possible the creation of peerages for life. Women were immediately eligible and four were among the first life peers appointed. However, hereditary peeresses continued to be excluded until the passage of the Peerage Act 1963. Since the passage of the House of Lords Act 1999,hereditary peeresses remain eligible for election to the Upper House; there is one (Margaret of Mar, 31st Countess of Mar) among the 90 hereditary peers who continue to sit.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Lords


There are 209 female peers out of 798 in the House of Lords today
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_the_House_of_Lords

 

[Tatiana Maria]

The most important reason why only one of the 92 (not 90) hereditary peers sitting in the House of Lords is a woman, even though hereditary peeresses are in theory eligible for election, is that the rules of the vast majority of hereditary peerages ban female descendants from being hereditary peeresses.

According to Debrett’s Peerage and Baronetage 2011, there were 790 male hereditary peers and only 13 hereditary peeresses in their own right in 2011.

 

[Spheno]

The most important reason why only one of the 92 (not 90) hereditary peers sitting in the House of Lords is a woman, even though hereditary peeresses are in theory eligible for election, is that the rules of the vast majority of hereditary peerages ban female descendants from being hereditary peeresses.

According to Debrett’s Peerage and Baronetage 2011, there were 790 male hereditary peers and only 13 hereditary peeresses in their own right in 2011.

They don't ban. All titles have their reminders, usually for male heirs. It's part of history.
Unlike Spaniards Britons don't plan to cash on peerage titles. Thus they aren't interested in adding more heirs to titles.

 

[wyevale]

VERY shortly [March 2019], this will be NONE of the ECHR's business ! As Rudolph rightly says they are likely so be told so 'in NO uncertain terms'...

 

[Tatiana Maria]

They don't ban. All titles have their reminders, usually for male heirs. It's part of history.
Unlike Spaniards Britons don't plan to cash on peerage titles. Thus they aren't interested in adding more heirs to titles.

I am not sure what you mean by "cash on peerage titles", but the usual remainder "heirs male of the body, lawfully begotten" does ban women from inheriting the peerage.

VERY shortly [March 2019], this will be NONE of the ECHR's business ! As Rudolph rightly says they are likely so be told so 'in NO uncertain terms'...

Why is that? As far as I'm aware, Brexit will have no effect on Britain's membership of the ECHR.

 

[wyevale]

On the face of it, Brexit has no implications whatever for the UK’s relationship with the Strasbourg-based European Court of Human Rights (ECtHR), the European Convention on Human Rights (ECHR), or for either of these institutions themselves. Formally, by leaving the EU, the UK would merely join the existing 19 non-EU states which belong to the 47-member Council of Europe, the parent body of the ECHR and the ECtHR.

However the very idea that a judgement so intimately affecting our second chamber, would be enacted following Brexit is unthinkable [imo].
It would merely confirm what MANY think [certainly the majority that voted in the Brexit referendum], that Brussels/Strasbourg is simply unable to keep its mitts out of our business..

 

[Spheno]

I am not sure what you mean by "cash on peerage titles", but the usual remainder "heirs male of the body, lawfully begotten" does ban women from inheriting the peerage.

But there is no ban to be elected in the House of Lords.

Spaniards can inherited titles only after paying for them. If a heir doesn't have money somebody (usually a kin) else can pay and receive titles.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

But there is no ban to be elected in the House of Lords.

Hereditary peeresses are not banned from being elected, as I wrote above, but in the vast majority of noble families, women are banned from holding the hereditary peerage, making them ineligible to be elected to the House of Lords.

(I have edited the question in my first post to be more accurate.)

Spaniards can inherited titles only after paying for them. If a heir doesn't have money somebody (usually a kin) else can pay and receive titles.

I see, but I'm sure the fees would not depend on the gender of the heir in Britain or in Spain.

 

[CyrilVladisla]

Princess Beatrice of the United Kingdom's husband was originally His Illustrious Highness Count Henry of Battenberg. Did their son Alexander inherit this title of Count of Battenberg?

 

[Tatiana Maria]

On July 17, 2018, YouGov conducted a survey on 5,310 British adults, weighted to be representative of the Great Britain population.

https://yougov.co.uk/opi/surveys/re...8e44b46e-89a0-11e8-8d0b-55ea1bb289e2/toplines


2. Most hereditary titles, like Duke or Earl, can only be inherited by male children. Do you think most hereditary titles should continue to only descend through male children, or should female children have the same right to inherit them?

10% Most titles should continue to only be inherited by male children
71% Female children should have the same right to inherit titles
19% Don't know



Views vary substantially by age, gender, and political party, but are more even across region and social grade.

Only 65% of those ages 18 to 24 say female children should have the same right to inherit titles, compared to 75% of those age 50 and older.

Only 64% of men say female children should have the same right to inherit titles, compared to 79% of women.

Liberal Democrats are the most likely to say that female children should have the same right to inherit titles (82%), followed by Labour (76%), the SNP (74%), Conservatives (69%), and UKIP (51%).

 

[Denville]

They don't ban. All titles have their reminders, usually for male heirs. It's part of history.
Unlike Spaniards Britons don't plan to cash on peerage titles. Thus they aren't interested in adding more heirs to titles.

having a remainder to male heirs, means that there are very few female peers. Because except in unusual circumstnaces, the British peerage descends in the male line only....

 

[wyevale]

CrowdJustice Case Update

Two friends of mine, Carla Stanley [a member the family of the Earls of Derby] and Charlotte Carew-Pole [a member of the family of the Carew-Pole Baronetcy] have begun a [currently] fairly successful 'crowd funding' exercise to raise money to challenge Male Primogeniture in the British Peerage at the European Court of Human rights.

Their intention is enable the eldest child to inherit the title [regardless of gender] following the example of the royal family.

This is likely to prove VERY 'tricky' since the VAST majority of Peerages in existence were created [expressly and individually, in some cases HUNDREDS of years ago] to descend to 'heirs male of the body'.

Additionally [and perhaps] FAR more controversially, [since HMQ is the 'fount of ALL Honours' in the UK], if the case were to succeed effectively it would create legal precedent for a foreign Court to have jurisdiction over our Head of State.

Regardless of the merits of the case, this [in the era of Brexit] will not be popular or unchallenged.

 

[Rudolph]

I agree

The fact is this was brought to the ECHR is because it’s completely outside the jurisdiction of British courts. British courts cannot rule on parliamentary procedure nor royal prerogative. Which are what peerages and eligibility to sit in the House of Lords fall under.

 

[wyevale]

The House of Lords is utterly uninterested since the majority of its Peers are now 'Life' and so have no Titles to bequeath.
So the only option was the ECHR, and a DEEPLY controversial one at that...

 

[Rudolph]

The House of Lords is utterly uninterested since the majority of its Peers are now 'Life' and so have no Titles to bequeath.
So the only option was the ECHR, and a DEEPLY controversial one at that...

Exactly. It’s an attempt to go around British law. Which means even if the ECHR rules in favour, it will be completely ignored by British lawmakers.

Hereditary peerages aren’t even a minor priority for the government.

 

[Missy-]

Here's a subject the Duchess of Sussex should tackle but won't because it's not something the RF would/should take on. Shame that it won't go anywhere, but kudos for those bringing it to the public's attention.

It's things like this that make me glad I live in a Democracy, no matter how broken it may be. Monarchy and all it entails is such an anachronistic form of government imo.

 

[Al_bina]

Here's a subject the Duchess of Sussex should tackle but won't because it's not something the RF would/should take on. Shame that it won't go anywhere, but kudos for those bringing it to the public's attention.
... [snipped]

Has a member of the royal family been asked for help in the case? If not, it is better to avoid dragging the royal family into one more disaster.

 

[wyevale]

make me glad I live in a Democracy

DOH.. we live in a Democracy too, and EVERY Monarchy in Europe is one too...

 

[Denville]

Here's a subject the Duchess of Sussex should tackle but won't because it's not something the RF would/should take on. Shame that it won't go anywhere, but kudos for those bringing it to the public's attention.

It's things like this that make me glad I live in a Democracy, no matter how broken it may be. Monarchy and all it entails is such an anachronistic form of government imo.

Why sould she take this on? It would be a complete waste of time, that she should be using to do something useful. And I don't know what is anachronisitic about a consitutiional monarchy.

 

[Osipi]

Regardless of whether or not the royal family could or would step up and campaign for this issue, never in a million years would the Duchess of Sussex be deemed appropriate to touch this with a 10 foot pole.

Its a British matter dealing with the British Peer system and right now, as far as everyone is concerned, Meghan is still an American citizen and has yet to be granted British citizenship.

Definitely a no go. Leave the political matters and the processing of complaints on the hereditary peerage remainders to those that can actually make the changes.

 

[Denville]

Of course they coudlnt. It is far too controversial and political...

 

[Kataryn]

Here's a subject the Duchess of Sussex should tackle but won't because it's not something the RF would/should take on. Shame that it won't go anywhere, but kudos for those bringing it to the public's attention.

It's things like this that make me glad I live in a Democracy, no matter how broken it may be. Monarchy and all it entails is such an anachronistic form of government imo.

Apart from some countries in the Middle or Central East, all monarchies are democracies, with an inheritance system for a head of state instead of a presidential/voted-for- system. If the majority of voters want, they can end the monarchy at any time. In all cases the government is depending on the parliament wehich is voted in by the voters through elections.



But it showed that tourists like monarchies, voters like the stability a monarchy seems to convey and thus far the people born into their position have showed astonishing respect for their duties and their people. So really it's a win-win situation, especially as the cost of a presidential system is much higher, because the same security, representation costs etc. are there but you have to pay the retirement pensions in addition. Most monarchies by now have down-sized, so only the necessary costs are payed by the taxpayers, not the luxuries.

 

[ladyjolene]

Interesting article on the Devons. For actress AJ Langer is the Countess.
people. com/royals/my-so-called-life-star-a-j-langer-countess/

 

[eya]

The Countess of Derby shows us her couture

https://www.tatler.com/article/countess-of-derby

Estate of Lady Lucan sale at Bonhams in London today 16 August

https://www.rexfeatures.com/livefeed/2018/08/16/estate_of_lady_lucan_sale_at_bonhams,_london

Article

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...g-widows-drawing-room-40-years-goes-sale.html

 

[An Ard Ri]

The Earl of Bessborough attended the the Iverk Show in Piltown,Co.Kilkenny this afternoon.

https://www.kilkennypeople.ie/news/...s-launch-of-iverk-show-in-south-kilkenny.html

 

[An Ard Ri]

I can't see too many wanting Lord Lucan's portrait

 

[iceflower]

.

Duchess Natalia of Grosvenor was pictured during her holidays with daughter Lady Edwina and her family in Portofino, Italy, on August 23:


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