Questions about British Styles and Titles

[Von Schlesian]

Originally Posted by RoyalProtocol

Another non related question: If Her Late Majesty Queen Elizabeth, The Queen Mother had remarried (a severely doubtful situation) would she have become simply Mrs. John Smith, LG LT etc. or would letters have been issued to allow her to retain a part of her title eg. HM The Queen Mother, Mrs. John Smith Etc. which sound silly, also what would have happened if she had married a member of a foreign royal family.

Had HM Queen Elizabeth, The Queen Mother remarried (which as you say, it a severly if not entirely doubtful situation), letters would certainly have been issued for an appropriate style eg: HM Queen Elizabeth, Mrs. John Smith (I am using the example of HRH Princess Alexandra, The Hon. Lady Ogilvy).

As to marrying a member of a foreign royal family, I imagine the style of HM Queen Elizabeth, would reflect that of Her Majesty's hypothetical husband eg: HM Queen Elizabeth of Denmark, HRH Princess Elizabeth, Duchess of Västerbotten, or HSH Princess Elizabeth of Liechtenstein etc

[BeatrixFan]

Indeed. Wasn't there a rumour that she considered marrying King Olav V of Norway? She would have been Her Majesty The Queen again if she had. In Norway at least. Not sure about the Princess title - can a Queen be demoted or is it once a queen always a queen as Elton John would have us believe?

[Von Schlesian]

Originally Posted by BeatrixFan

Not sure about the Princess title - can a Queen be demoted or is it once a queen always a queen as Elton John would have us believe?

Ofcourse. Regardless of the former rank, if a monarch's widow were to marry into another family, they would adopt the appropriate style and titles of their spouse.

[Alison20]

This actually is rather complicated. I think it is possible to maintain your original and higher title even if you marry someone lower. Well, it was in the past. Back in the Middle Ages, in the first English Civil War between Mathilda and Stephen, Mathilda (the daughter of the King) married the ?Holy Roman Emperor and became an Empress. Even when she later married the Count of Anjour, she continued being referred to as the Empress Mathilda. (Stephen was the nephew of the King and when he - the King - died many of the nobles decided to renage on their vow to support Mathilda as Queen, preferring to have a King in those male-dominated days.)

I also remember reading that, with increasing divorces, there was the possiblity of lots of, say, Countesses of Avon. There would be the actual one (the Countess of Avon), perhaps the widowed mother of the Earl (either Dowager Countess or Anne, Countess of Avon), and then all the divorced Countesses could retain the title (first name), Countess of Avon!

It used to be usual for women to 'lose' their higher rank if they married someone of lower rank and take on the lower one. This did not apply, however, if they married a person with no title. However, I do notice that this does not always happen now - certainly with European Royalty. And in the name of women's equality - why should it!! :-)

[Australian]

Originally Posted by BeatrixFan

Indeed. Wasn't there a rumour that she considered marrying King Olav V of Norway? She would have been Her Majesty The Queen again if she had. In Norway at least. Not sure about the Princess title - can a Queen be demoted or is it once a queen always a queen as Elton John would have us believe?

I think it is possible, I think HM Queen Juliana of The Netherlands demoted to HRH Princess Juliana on her abdication.

[Duchess]

why is the title "Honorable" used? is it indicitive of something?

[Avalon]

Originally Posted by Alison20

This actually is rather complicated. I think it is possible to maintain your original and higher title even if you marry someone lower. Well, it was in the past. Back in the Middle Ages, in the first English Civil War between Mathilda and Stephen, Mathilda (the daughter of the King) married the ?Holy Roman Emperor and became an Empress. Even when she later married the Count of Anjour, she continued being referred to as the Empress Mathilda. (Stephen was the nephew of the King and when he - the King - died many of the nobles decided to renage on their vow to support Mathilda as Queen, preferring to have a King in those male-dominated days.)

Matilda was never actually an Empress, only in later years of her marriage to Henry V, Emperor of the Holy Roman Empire, she was known and reffered to as Empress Matilda. However she was never crowned by the Pope, as required, and thus never had legitimate claims to the title of Empress, and would be only Queen Consort of her husband, her proper title being Queen Matilda of Romans.
After the death of Henry V, she married Count of Anjou (nicknamed Plantagenet) and was legally Countess of Anjou, as his wife (even though she did continue to be known as Queen/Empress). As the only surviving her of her father, King Henry I of England, she was expected to become Queen one day, so the temporarily title of 'Countess' hardly meant anything for her.

[wbenson]

Originally Posted by Duchess

why is the title "Honorable" used? is it indicitive of something?

Younger sons of Earls are referred to as "The Honourable Firstname Surname." Angus Ogilvy was a younger son of the Earl of Airlie. Wives also take the title. As he was a knight for a large part of his life, his wife was also "Lady Surname." Therefore, Princess Alexandra became "The Honourable Lady Ogilvy."

[Duchess]

regarding diana' mother - she was The Hon. Frances Shand Kydd...was her second husband the son of an Earl?

[wbenson]

Originally Posted by Duchess

regarding diana' mother - she was The Hon. Frances Shand Kydd...was her second husband the son of an Earl?

No, but her father was a baron, which gives her the style in her own right. All sons and daughters of Barons and Viscounts, and younger sons of Earls possess the style.

[Elspeth]

Another non related question: If Her Late Majesty Queen Elizabeth, The Queen Mother had remarried (a severly doubtful situation) would she have become simply Mrs. John Smith, LG LT etc. or would letters have been issued to allow her to retain a part of her title eg. HM The Queen Mother, Mrs. John Smith Etc. which sound silly, also what would have happened if she had married a member of a foreign royal family.

Even setting aside her status as a dowager Queen Consort, at the very least she'd be Lady Elizabeth Smith because of being the daughter of an Earl. Diana's sister Jane is Lady Jane Fellowes; the Lady Jane comes from the fact that her father was Earl Spencer. If Sir Robert Fellowes had married an untitled woman, she'd have been known as Lady Fellowes, the style for the wife of a knight.

[Skydragon]

Originally Posted by Alison20

It used to be usual for women to 'lose' their higher rank if they married someone of lower rank and take on the lower one. This did not apply, however, if they married a person with no title. However, I do notice that this does not always happen now - certainly with European Royalty. And in the name of women's equality - why should it!! :-)

In the UK, if you are born with it, you keep it.

[branchg]

Originally Posted by Claire

Here is an odd one for you.

It was announced after the wedding of the Earl of Wessex that his children with the Countess of Wessex would not receive the title of HRH. I don't want to get into debate of whether their was or wasn't a letter patent. But a friend of mine noted that as the announcement was made in regard to the children of TRH The Earl and Countess of Wessex, what about when they became the Duke and Duchess of Edinburgh? Will another announcement need to be made, or will Louise suddenlty get a title overnight?

They announced the children of Edward and Sophie would not be styled as a Prince/Princess of the UK with the rank of HRH, but as the children of an Earl instead. Right now, Louise is styled "The Lady Louise Windsor", which would be the same style as the daughter of a Duke.

Regardless of her style, she remains a princess of the UK with the qualification of a Royal Highness under the 1917 Letters Patent of George V as a male-line grandchild of The Sovereign. She can and could assume her legal title and style at any time without special permission of The Sovereign.

[branchg]

Originally Posted by RoyalProtocol

Her Ladyship is a creation of fiction, HRH Princess Louise of Wessex is simply The Lady Louise Mountbatten-Windsor.

Another non related question: If Her Late Majesty Queen Elizabeth, The Queen Mother had remarried (a severly doubtful situation) would she have become simply Mrs. John Smith, LG LT etc. or would letters have been issued to allow her to retain a part of her title eg. HM The Queen Mother, Mrs. John Smith Etc. which sound silly, also what would have happened if she had married a member of a foreign royal family.

Louise's style as Lady Louise Windsor is also fiction. The Queen has not issued a Royal Warrant allowing her grandaughter to reliniquish her title and rank as a Princess and she remains a Royal Highness.

The Queen Mother became HM Queen Elizabeth under the statutory succession in her own right when The Duke of York became George VI. Although it certainly would have required a constitutional review, she could have remarried and retained her superior rank and title as HM Queen Elizabeth, The Queen Mother (which was held as a dowager queen), assuming there was no objection from The Sovereign and the Government.

[HRH Kerry]

Could Wallis Simpson upon her marriage to the Duke of Windsor been styled as HRH Princess Edward?

[Elspeth]

If a prince has a royal dukedom, his wife is known as HRH the Duchess of Whatever, not as HRH Princess Hisname. There was no reason other than vindictiveness on the part of certain elements of the royal family for the Duchess to be denied her HRH.

[HRH Kerry]

My thought was that because of cases like Princess Andrew (Prince Philip's mother) and Princess Michael.

[branchg]

Originally Posted by HRH Kerry

My thought was that because of cases like Princess Andrew (Prince Philip's mother) and Princess Michael.

A woman who marries a prince of the UK automatically becomes "HRH Princess Husband's Christian Name" as the wife of a son or grandson of The Sovereign. If their husband is also a peer, they take their style as the wife of a peer, rather than their legal title as a princess. But they are both by virtue of marriage.

Wallis was entitled by marriage to be "HRH The Princess Edward, Duchess of Windsor", but was specifically denied royal rank by letters patent issued by George VI. The legality of the King's actions have been doubted ever since, but it was never revisited by The Queen and The Duchess remained Her Grace only.

[Polly]

The duke of Edinburgh's mother was also, more commonly, known as Princess Alice of Battenburg, which she was, i.e. a princess in her own right before her marriage.

[branchg]

Originally Posted by Polly

The duke of Edinburgh's mother was also, more commonly, known as Princess Alice of Battenburg, which she was, i.e. a princess in her own right before her marriage.

Yes, however, I assume the rules of the Greek Royal House required the style to reflect only your marriage and your title followed your husband's. All of the wives of King George's sons were styled as "Princess Husband's Name" regardless of their birthright titles.

This included Princess Marie Bonaparte, Princess Alice of Battenberg and Grand Duchess Helena Vladimirovna.