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  #321  
Old 05-29-2007, 07:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by auntie
I can't recall if I have asked this before, but if Harry gets married and has children whislt the Queen is still alive, and they are styled Lord/Lady etc., when Charles ascends the throne, will they be restyled as prince/ess being the grandchildren of a monarch from a male line? Or the way they are born is the way it stays?!
Another point, were there any prince/ess of UK from Qvictorias grand or great grandchildren, who wouldn't be style do today?
Both William and Harry's children would be Lord/Lady Windsor until their father became King. If William has an eldest son, he is automatically a Royal Highness and Prince of the UK under the 1917 Letters Patent.

The Queen may also choose to issue letters patent providing William and Harry's children will enjoy the style and title of HRH Prince/Princess of the UK since they are close to becoming the grandchildren of The Sovereign after her death.

Victoria's grandchildren remained HRH Prince/Princess of GB and Ireland if so granted by HM via letters patent after George V issued the 1917 Letters Patent. They lost any German honours and titles immediately.

Victoria's great-grandchildren generally remained Prince/Princess of GB and Ireland (again if she specifically granted it via letters patent) as a courtesy, but they lost their precedence and qualification of Highness under George V.
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  #322  
Old 07-02-2007, 09:22 AM
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I have a question, it may be a bit silly but anyway...it is regarding the title of Count. There is the Earl and Countess of Wessex, but why isn't Edward the Count of Wessex and Sophie is the Countess of Wessex? IS there a difference between an Earl and a Count? I have always wondered why they are not knows as the Count and Countess of Wessex. It is always Earl and Countess, why?
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  #323  
Old 07-02-2007, 10:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Australian View Post
I have a question, it may be a bit silly but anyway...it is regarding the title of Count. There is the Earl and Countess of Wessex, but why isn't Edward the Count of Wessex and Sophie is the Countess of Wessex? IS there a difference between an Earl and a Count? I have always wondered why they are not knows as the Count and Countess of Wessex. It is always Earl and Countess, why?
I think Earl and Count is the same. I looked into my German-English dictionary and both titles were translated with "Graf". Therefore it has to be the same . . .
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  #324  
Old 07-02-2007, 02:46 PM
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Originally Posted by coco View Post
I think Earl and Count is the same. I looked into my German-English dictionary and both titles were translated with "Graf". Therefore it has to be the same . . .
They are the same - it is just a division that was caused by the translation from Old English - there were earls and when the Romans came over the only word they could place to it that was similar was count. It is a latin, old english mess.
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  #325  
Old 07-02-2007, 02:50 PM
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Here is an odd one for you.

It was announced after the wedding of the Earl of Wessex that his children with the Countess of Wessex would not receive the title of HRH. I don't want to get into debate of whether their was or wasn't a letter patent. But a friend of mine noted that as the announcement was made in regard to the children of TRH The Earl and Countess of Wessex, what about when they became the Duke and Duchess of Edinburgh? Will another announcement need to be made, or will Louise suddenlty get a title overnight?
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  #326  
Old 07-02-2007, 03:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Claire View Post
Here is an odd one for you.

It was announced after the wedding of the Earl of Wessex that his children with the Countess of Wessex would not receive the title of HRH. I don't want to get into debate of whether their was or wasn't a letter patent. But a friend of mine noted that as the announcement was made in regard to the children of TRH The Earl and Countess of Wessex, what about when they became the Duke and Duchess of Edinburgh? Will another announcement need to be made, or will Louise suddenlty get a title overnight?
Depends on the letters patent that king Charles will issue then. Because as long as he is not the king, he will inherit the dukedom of Edinburgh from his father. When he becomes king, the title will merge with the crown and then he can recreate it for his younger brother. In the letters patent there will surely be a paragraph concerning the title of the children of the new duke of Edinburgh.

At the moment they are all playing around with styles: Charles' wife is HRH The Princess of Wales, but let herself be styled as HRH The Duchess of Cornwall.
HRH Princess Louise of Wessex is styled simply as Her Ladyship, Lady Louise Mountbatten-Windsor.
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  #327  
Old 07-02-2007, 03:11 PM
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The daughter of a non-royal Duke is styled the same as the daughter of a non-royal Earl. So long as Edward and Sophie make it clear their children aren't going to use the styles of Royal Highness and Prince(ss), Louise won't be called anything different. Neither would a possible female child. A possible male child would go from being Viscount Severn to Earl of Wessex if they don't use HRH and Prince.
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  #328  
Old 07-03-2007, 05:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Jo of Palatine View Post
HRH Princess Louise of Wessex is styled simply as Her Ladyship, Lady Louise Mountbatten-Windsor.
Her Ladyship is a creation of fiction, HRH Princess Louise of Wessex is simply The Lady Louise Mountbatten-Windsor.

Another non related question: If Her Late Majesty Queen Elizabeth, The Queen Mother had remarried (a severly doubtful situation) would she have become simply Mrs. John Smith, LG LT etc. or would letters have been issued to allow her to retain a part of her title eg. HM The Queen Mother, Mrs. John Smith Etc. which sound silly, also what would have happened if she had married a member of a foreign royal family.
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  #329  
Old 07-04-2007, 04:07 AM
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Originally Posted by RoyalProtocol View Post

Another non related question: If Her Late Majesty Queen Elizabeth, The Queen Mother had remarried (a severely doubtful situation) would she have become simply Mrs. John Smith, LG LT etc. or would letters have been issued to allow her to retain a part of her title eg. HM The Queen Mother, Mrs. John Smith Etc. which sound silly, also what would have happened if she had married a member of a foreign royal family.
Had HM Queen Elizabeth, The Queen Mother remarried (which as you say, it a severly if not entirely doubtful situation), letters would certainly have been issued for an appropriate style eg: HM Queen Elizabeth, Mrs. John Smith (I am using the example of HRH Princess Alexandra, The Hon. Lady Ogilvy).

As to marrying a member of a foreign royal family, I imagine the style of HM Queen Elizabeth, would reflect that of Her Majesty's hypothetical husband eg: HM Queen Elizabeth of Denmark, HRH Princess Elizabeth, Duchess of Västerbotten, or HSH Princess Elizabeth of Liechtenstein etc
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  #330  
Old 07-04-2007, 04:14 AM
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Indeed. Wasn't there a rumour that she considered marrying King Olav V of Norway? She would have been Her Majesty The Queen again if she had. In Norway at least. Not sure about the Princess title - can a Queen be demoted or is it once a queen always a queen as Elton John would have us believe?
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  #331  
Old 07-04-2007, 05:58 AM
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Originally Posted by BeatrixFan View Post
Not sure about the Princess title - can a Queen be demoted or is it once a queen always a queen as Elton John would have us believe?
Ofcourse. Regardless of the former rank, if a monarch's widow were to marry into another family, they would adopt the appropriate style and titles of their spouse.
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  #332  
Old 07-04-2007, 06:31 AM
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This actually is rather complicated. I think it is possible to maintain your original and higher title even if you marry someone lower. Well, it was in the past. Back in the Middle Ages, in the first English Civil War between Mathilda and Stephen, Mathilda (the daughter of the King) married the ?Holy Roman Emperor and became an Empress. Even when she later married the Count of Anjour, she continued being referred to as the Empress Mathilda. (Stephen was the nephew of the King and when he - the King - died many of the nobles decided to renage on their vow to support Mathilda as Queen, preferring to have a King in those male-dominated days.)

I also remember reading that, with increasing divorces, there was the possiblity of lots of, say, Countesses of Avon. There would be the actual one (the Countess of Avon), perhaps the widowed mother of the Earl (either Dowager Countess or Anne, Countess of Avon), and then all the divorced Countesses could retain the title (first name), Countess of Avon!

It used to be usual for women to 'lose' their higher rank if they married someone of lower rank and take on the lower one. This did not apply, however, if they married a person with no title. However, I do notice that this does not always happen now - certainly with European Royalty. And in the name of women's equality - why should it!! :-)
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  #333  
Old 07-04-2007, 08:16 AM
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Originally Posted by BeatrixFan View Post
Indeed. Wasn't there a rumour that she considered marrying King Olav V of Norway? She would have been Her Majesty The Queen again if she had. In Norway at least. Not sure about the Princess title - can a Queen be demoted or is it once a queen always a queen as Elton John would have us believe?
I think it is possible, I think HM Queen Juliana of The Netherlands demoted to HRH Princess Juliana on her abdication.
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  #334  
Old 07-04-2007, 08:25 AM
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why is the title "Honorable" used? is it indicitive of something?
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  #335  
Old 07-04-2007, 08:35 AM
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This actually is rather complicated. I think it is possible to maintain your original and higher title even if you marry someone lower. Well, it was in the past. Back in the Middle Ages, in the first English Civil War between Mathilda and Stephen, Mathilda (the daughter of the King) married the ?Holy Roman Emperor and became an Empress. Even when she later married the Count of Anjour, she continued being referred to as the Empress Mathilda. (Stephen was the nephew of the King and when he - the King - died many of the nobles decided to renage on their vow to support Mathilda as Queen, preferring to have a King in those male-dominated days.)
Matilda was never actually an Empress, only in later years of her marriage to Henry V, Emperor of the Holy Roman Empire, she was known and reffered to as Empress Matilda. However she was never crowned by the Pope, as required, and thus never had legitimate claims to the title of Empress, and would be only Queen Consort of her husband, her proper title being Queen Matilda of Romans.
After the death of Henry V, she married Count of Anjou (nicknamed Plantagenet) and was legally Countess of Anjou, as his wife (even though she did continue to be known as Queen/Empress). As the only surviving her of her father, King Henry I of England, she was expected to become Queen one day, so the temporarily title of 'Countess' hardly meant anything for her.
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  #336  
Old 07-04-2007, 11:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Duchess View Post
why is the title "Honorable" used? is it indicitive of something?
Younger sons of Earls are referred to as "The Honourable Firstname Surname." Angus Ogilvy was a younger son of the Earl of Airlie. Wives also take the title. As he was a knight for a large part of his life, his wife was also "Lady Surname." Therefore, Princess Alexandra became "The Honourable Lady Ogilvy."
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  #337  
Old 07-04-2007, 05:25 PM
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regarding diana' mother - she was The Hon. Frances Shand Kydd...was her second husband the son of an Earl?
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  #338  
Old 07-04-2007, 05:44 PM
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regarding diana' mother - she was The Hon. Frances Shand Kydd...was her second husband the son of an Earl?
No, but her father was a baron, which gives her the style in her own right. All sons and daughters of Barons and Viscounts, and younger sons of Earls possess the style.
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  #339  
Old 07-04-2007, 05:53 PM
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Another non related question: If Her Late Majesty Queen Elizabeth, The Queen Mother had remarried (a severly doubtful situation) would she have become simply Mrs. John Smith, LG LT etc. or would letters have been issued to allow her to retain a part of her title eg. HM The Queen Mother, Mrs. John Smith Etc. which sound silly, also what would have happened if she had married a member of a foreign royal family.
Even setting aside her status as a dowager Queen Consort, at the very least she'd be Lady Elizabeth Smith because of being the daughter of an Earl. Diana's sister Jane is Lady Jane Fellowes; the Lady Jane comes from the fact that her father was Earl Spencer. If Sir Robert Fellowes had married an untitled woman, she'd have been known as Lady Fellowes, the style for the wife of a knight.
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  #340  
Old 07-04-2007, 05:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Alison20 View Post
It used to be usual for women to 'lose' their higher rank if they married someone of lower rank and take on the lower one. This did not apply, however, if they married a person with no title. However, I do notice that this does not always happen now - certainly with European Royalty. And in the name of women's equality - why should it!! :-)
In the UK, if you are born with it, you keep it.
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