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  #521  
Old 07-23-2011, 08:08 PM
kbk kbk is offline
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Yes, but when they are in their most private time, sharing moments and family life without anyone from outside, you think they strictly follow the rules and order of precedence? For example, when they are taking their places on the table to have dinner? I don't think so.
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  #522  
Old 07-23-2011, 08:21 PM
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Originally Posted by kbk View Post
Yes, but when they are in their most private time, sharing moments and family life without anyone from outside, you think they strictly follow the rules and order of precedence? For example, when they are taking their places on the table to have dinner? I don't think so.

We must differ - I actually think they do and that that was part of the reason for giving out the order of precedence for ladies alone in 2005 - so that they knew who sat first and where and who entered rooms first etc - when in private (as it is 'private precedence' anyway).
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  #523  
Old 08-09-2011, 03:11 PM
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Diana was never 2nd after the Queen

Diana was never 2nd after the Queen.

Diana depending on the year and in public vs private she may have been the lowest person on the totem pole. She might not even have rank high enough to get a curtesy from other members of the family.

The order of precedence was not created because of Camilla. It has always existed. Camilla is 4th and if Diana was still alive and married to POW she would be 4th.

Order of precedence 1981 IMO
  1. Queen Elizabeth II
  2. Queen Elizabeth
  3. Duchess of Windsor
  4. Princess Alice
  5. Princess Margaret
  6. Princess Alexandra
  7. Princess Anne
  8. Diana
Order of precedence 1987
  1. Queen Elizabeth II
  2. Queen Elizabeth
  3. Princess Anne
  4. Princess Alice
  5. Princess Margaret
  6. Princess Alexandra
  7. Diana
Current order of Precedence
  1. Queen Elizabeth II
  2. Princess Anne
  3. Princess Alexandra
  4. Camilla Princess of Wales, Duchess of Cornwall
  5. Sophie
  6. Zara Phillips
  7. Princess Beatrice
  8. Princess Eugenie
  9. Catherine Duchess of Cambridge
1. Queen Elizabeth II became Queen in 1952 upon the death of her father.
She was crowned Queen in 1953.
She is the reigning monarch.
Born 1926
2. Queen Elizabeth began Queen in 1936 when her husband became King.
She was crowned Queen in 1937.
She was the Queen Consort.
When her daughter ascended to the throne, it was suggested that she
be called the Queen Mother as both mother and daughter were named
Elizabeth to avoid confusion. She disliked being called Queen Mum or
Queen Mother. Upon the death of her husband in 1952, she was still
queen but she was now Dowager Queen rather than Queen Consort.
A queen outranks all princess no matter who.
Born 1900
Died 2002
3. Duchess of Windsor married an ex-King. Although she married King
Edward VIII after he abdicated and she was blamed for the
constitutional crisis and given the title of Duchess. She outranked
Diana.
Charles BOWED to the Duchess of Windor in PUBLIC on 2 occasions.
If Charles bows, Diana curtesys.
The big story when Charles married Diana was whether the Duchess of
Windsor would be invited to the wedding and when she was not. The
media went after the British Royal Family.
Born 1896
Died 1986
4. Princess Alice was the Duchess of Glouchester. When her husband
died in 1974 she asked the Queen for permission to be called Princess
Alice although she was not born into the BRF family. The Queen
granted her request. Diana was never Princess Diana as she was not
born into the family and the Queen never gave her permission to
use this title. Title before the name implies born into the family, unless
the Queen give permission. The Duchess married Prince Henry in 1935.
She was the sister-in-law of the Queen Mother and Duchess of Windsor.
She was the Aunt through marriage of the Queen. She worked for the
BRF from 1935 until 1999. She was 98 years old when she stopped
performing royal duties.
Born 1901
Died 2004
5. Princess Margaret is the younger sister of Queen and the daugther of
King George VI and his wife Queen Elizabeth.
Born 1930
Died 2002
6. Princess Alexandra is Queen Elizabeth's only female 1st cousin born into
the royal family. Her father was Prince George. She began performing
royal duties at age 15 when her cousin became queen. The Queen has
several male 1st cousin but most did not wish to perform royal duties,
so she depended heavily on Princess Alexandra to represent her. I
believe she was only 15 when she went on her 1st solo foreign tour.
Born 1936
7. Princess Anne is the Queen's daughter. In 1987 she was given the title
of Princess Royal. With this titie she became THE most important
Princess in the BRF.

I believe the order of precedence has never changed it has alway been is based on generation. First blood relatives then through marriage.

Charles especially relates to the older members of his family and he would have NEVER ALLOWED 80 year women to curtsey to a 20 year old. And least of all his grandmother who he loved more than his mother.

All the Diana fanatics and the Camilla bashers can post all the lies but they are still lies.

The order of precedence never changes, just the people within.

The private order of precedence IMO is connected with the Royal Family Order.

The public might think that just because someone marries into the BRF they instantly become a member of the royal family. This is not true.

I think this is where the private vs public comes into pay.

In public Kate is a member of the BRF but in private she is not. Camilla, Sophie and Diana all went through it.

I think until the Queen gives the person the Royal Family Order portrait of herself, she does not consider that person a members of her family and thus they must bow to everyone who has the portrait.

The Queen is know to be cheap/neglectful in bestowing gifts and titles to her family.
Her daughter Anne was not given the portrait until 1969. However the Queen received George V FO portrait when she was a little girl. George V died when she was 10 years old and he had already presented it to her.

Princess Anne had to wait until she was an adult.

The Queen waits until after they have performed royal duties for several years before presenting them with any titles/honors.

Louise, Edwards and Sophie's daughter should rank higher than Kate as she is of the same generation as Zara, Peter, William, Harry, Beatrice, Eugenie but as she is a minor no one is expect to bow to her.

When Louise is given the family order she will outrank Catherine.

To the Diana fanantics and the Camilla bashers, Camilla already received the family order. Kate has not.

To the fanantics and bashers, who couldn't figure out why Diana was 8th when she married into the family and why Camilla is 4th. It is because 4 of the people who were ahead of Diana died before Charles married Camilla.

I also think Sophie's and Camilla's relationship is sour because Sophie had the FO before Camilla married into the family but once Camilla received it. Sophie had to curtesy to Camilla. Before receiving the FO but after marrying into the BRF Camilla had to curtesy to Sophie. But Charles might have pulled rank when the Queen wasn't around and wouldn't allow it.
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  #524  
Old 08-09-2011, 03:37 PM
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Well I guess it is like in the military. You salute the rank, not the person. The rank here being family first.
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  #525  
Old 08-09-2011, 04:46 PM
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Surely the Duchess of Windsor, who was not granted the right to be called Her Royal Highness would never have outranked an HRH?
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  #526  
Old 08-09-2011, 05:10 PM
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I believe the order of precedence has always been based on generation. First blood relatives then through marriage. The order of precedence never changes, just the people within.



Current order of Precedence
  1. Queen Elizabeth II
  2. Princess Anne*
  3. Princess Alexandra
  4. Camilla Princess of Wales, Duchess of Cornwall
  5. Sophie
  6. Zara Phillips
  7. Princess Beatrice
  8. Princess Eugenie
  9. Catherine Duchess of Cambridge
Princess Anne should be #3 but in 1987 she was given the title of Princess Royal wth this titie she became the most important Princess in the BRF.

The private order of precedence IMO is connected with the Royal Family Order.

The public might think that just because someone marries into the BRF they instantly become a member of the royal family. This is not true.

I think this is where the private vs public comes into pay.

In public Kate is a member of the BRF but in private she is not. Camilla, Sophie and Diana all went through it.

I think until the Queen gives the person the Royal Family Order portrait of herself, she does not consider that person a members of her family and thus they must bow to everyone who has the portrait.

The Queen waits until after they have performed royal duties for several years before presenting them with any titles/honors.

Louise, Edwards and Sophie's daughter should rank higher than Kate as she is of the same generation as Zara, Peter, William, Harry, Beatrice, Eugenie but as she is a minor no one is expected to bow/curtsey to her.

When Louise is given the family order she will out rank Catherine.
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  #527  
Old 08-09-2011, 05:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
We must differ - I actually think they do and that that was part of the reason for giving out the order of precedence for ladies alone in 2005 - so that they knew who sat first and where and who entered rooms first etc - when in private (as it is 'private precedence' anyway).

Actually, if you read accounts about dinners at Sandringham and Balmoral, the Queen ensures the same two people are never sat together twice. That would be impossible to do if the private order of precedence was designed for the purposes outlined in the paragraph I quoted from above.
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  #528  
Old 08-09-2011, 06:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Queen Camilla View Post
I believe the order of precedence has always been based on generation. First blood relatives then through marriage. The order of precedence never changes, just the people within.








Current order of Precedence
  1. Queen Elizabeth II
  2. Princess Anne*
  3. Princess Alexandra
  4. Camilla Princess of Wales, Duchess of Cornwall
  5. Sophie
  6. Zara Phillips
  7. Princess Beatrice
  8. Princess Eugenie
  9. Catherine Duchess of Cambridge
Princess Anne should be #3 but in 1987 she was given the title of Princess Royal wth this titie she became the most important Princess in the BRF.

The private order of precedence IMO is connected with the Royal Family Order.

The public might think that just because someone marries into the BRF they instantly become a member of the royal family. This is not true.

I think this is where the private vs public comes into pay.

In public Kate is a member of the BRF but in private she is not. Camilla, Sophie and Diana all went through it.

I think until the Queen gives the person the Royal Family Order portrait of herself, she does not consider that person a members of her family and thus they must bow to everyone who has the portrait.

The Queen waits until after they have performed royal duties for several years before presenting them with any titles/honors.

Louise, Edwards and Sophie's daughter should rank higher than Kate as she is of the same generation as Zara, Peter, William, Harry, Beatrice, Eugenie but as she is a minor no one is expected to bow/curtsey to her.

When Louise is given the family order she will out rank Catherine.

Queen Camilla raises some interesting ideas but the situation is a little different in practice: First we have to distinguish between Succession and Precedence and then between 'legal' and 'private' family precedence. Both types of precedence depend on whether gentlemen are present.

Succession is of course fixed by statue and fixes the order in which members of the BRF will succeed to the throne.


Precedence determines the seniority of members of the Royal Family at official events and depends on a mixture of law, custom and tradtion. It also depends on whether gentlemen are present or not!

Precedence among members of the Royal Family at private events is entirely a matter for the Queen. and again, it depends whether gentlemen are present or not.

The most recent change to private precedence occurred in 2005 when the Queen issued her private list of 'female' precedence in which Camilla ranked after the Princess Royal and Princess Alexandra. This was a very major change, because whilst they were still alive, The Queen Mother and The Princess of Wales both ranked before the Princess Royal. No official reason has ever been given for the change to private precedence, although rumour suggests that the Queen took this highly unusual step of 'demoting' the 'wife of the Prince of Wales' in order to appease those of her subjects who were still unhappy with the marriage of Charles and Camilla.

Private Precedence does (basically) determine who curtseys to whom at Court and I do not think that the award of the her Royal Family Order by the Queen has much bearing on precedence; After her marriage, the Princess of Wales ranked after everybody except the Queen Mother [and of course the Queen] even though she at that stage had not received the Royal Family Order. It was a similar case with the Duchess of York: afer her marriage, Sarah Ferguson[ i.e. when Duchess of York] ranked quite high in the order of private precedence even though had not received the Royal Family Order [and indeed never did!]

Lady Louise is still very young and I would anticipate that Catherine will receive the Royal Family Order in the not too distant future, as she will no doubt be attending some 'Formal State Banquets' etc [as I will call them] in 2012 in connection with the forthcoming Diamond Jubilee. IMHO Lady Louise may also never receive the Royal Family Order if she does not become a 'working royal'. And even if Lady Louise did eventually receive the Royal Family Order, I am sure that in private precedence, Catherine will always outrank Lady Louise, as Catherine is married to the second in line to the throne.

In my very humble opinion, Catherine is very much a member of the Royal Family now, due to her marriage to Prince William. Although the couple do indeed enjoy a private type of life because William is a serving air force officer, Catherine is still regarded as a member of the Royal Family at all times.

A minor point: Catherine is more correctly described as 'HRH The Duchess of Cambridge'. She would never be described as Catherine Duchess of Cambridge unless she and William were divorced. Which I hope will never arise, as we have had quite enough of that in the BRF in recent times.

Alex
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  #529  
Old 08-09-2011, 06:58 PM
Midwestern Mom's Avatar
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The order of precedence doesn't list the men though...and I think if the spouses are present that should change things up.

Also once William and Catherine have children, their children should rank higher that some of the other royals on the list should they not?


MM
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  #530  
Old 08-09-2011, 07:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Midwestern Mom View Post
The order of precedence doesn't list the men though...and I think if the spouses are present that should change things up.

Also once William and Catherine have children, their children should rank higher that some of the other royals on the list should they not?


MM
I think if their husbands and brothers are present then it does change a bit. For example, Camilla and Sophie would be ahead of Anne if their husbands are present. Beatrice and Eugenie, however, would remain ahead of Sophie, but after Camilla, if their father is present. Just watch when they exit churches for Service's of Thanksgiving etc. and you notice the order of precedence with which they exit the building when they line up to walk out. Even the exits at Zara's wedding were done to order of precedence, as were their arrivals (starting with the lower rankings first.)

Regarding William and Catherine's children, it depends if they have child when Queen Elizabeth is still around surely, as they will only be great-grandchildren of the Monarch. I think if Charles is King when they have kids then they will be higher up as grandchildren of the Monarch. They would, however, still walk with William and Catherine at certain occasions and services, like Beatrice and Eugenie did with their father.
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  #531  
Old 08-09-2011, 07:38 PM
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Well yeah but W&C's children will be children of the heir (once Charles is king)...shouldn't that put them above the rest?

MM
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  #532  
Old 08-09-2011, 08:16 PM
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The most recent change to private precedence occurred in 2005 when the Queen issued her private list of 'female' precedence in which Camilla ranked after the Princess Royal and Princess Alexandra. This was a very major change, because whilst they were still alive, The Queen Mother and The Princess of Wales both ranked before the Princess Royal. No official reason has ever been given for the change to private precedence, although rumour suggests that the Queen took this highly unusual step of 'demoting' the 'wife of the Prince of Wales' in order to appease those of her subjects who were still unhappy with the marriage of Charles and Camilla.


I disagree, with Diana outranking Princess Anne, because the Princess Royal title, means Anne out ranks all other BRF princess, regardless if the man is in the room.

Again Diana was never 2nd or 3rd.

IMO I believe all the people who refer to the Queen by her nickname Lilibeth out rank those that do not except for the Princess Royal.


Order of precedence 1981
  1. Queen Elizabeth II
  2. Queen Elizabeth
  3. Duchess of Windsor
  4. Princess Alice
  5. Princess Margaret
  6. Princess Alexandra
  7. Princess Anne
  8. Diana
Order of Precedence 1987
  1. Queen Elizabeth II
  2. Queen Elizabeth
  3. Princess Anne
  4. Pirncess Alice
  5. Princess Margaret
  6. Pirncess Alexandra
  7. Diana
Diana, if alive today and still married to POW, would still rank #4 the same rank as Camilla. (The only reason she moved up to the 4th spot was because 4 people died.)

1. Queen Elizabeth II became Queen in 1952 upon the death of her father.
She was crowned Queen in 1953.
She is the reigning monarch.
Born 1926
2. Queen Elizabeth began Queen in 1936 when her husband became King.
She was crowned Queen in 1937.
She was the Queen Consort.
When her daughter ascended to the throne, it was suggested that she
be called the Queen Mother as both mother and daughter were named
Elizabeth to avoid confusion. She disliked being called Queen Mum or
Queen Mother. Upon the death of her husband in 1952, she was still
queen but she was now Dowager Queen rather than Queen Consort.
A queen outranks all princess no matter who.
Born 1900
Died 2002
3. Duchess of Windsor married an ex-King. Although she married King
Edward VIII after he abdicated and she was blamed for the
constitutional crisis and given the title of Duchess. She outranked
Diana.
Charles BOWED to the Duchess of Windor in PUBLIC on 2 occasions.
If Charles bows, Diana curtesys.
The big story when Charles married Diana was whether the Duchess of
Windsor would be invited to the wedding and when she was not. The
media went after the British Royal Family.
Born 1896
Died 1986
4. Princess Alice was the Duchess of Glouchester. When her husband
died in 1974 she asked the Queen for permission to be called Princess
Alice although she was not born into the BRF family. The Queen
granted her request. Diana was never Princess Diana as she was not
born into the family and the Queen never gave her permission to
use this title. Title before the name implies born into the family, unless
the Queen give permission. The Duchess married Prince Henry in 1935.
She was the sister-in-law of the Queen Mother and Duchess of Windsor.
She was the Aunt through marriage of the Queen. She worked for the
BRF from 1935 until 1999. She was 98 years old when she stopped
performing royal duties.
Born 1901
Died 2004
5. Princess Margaret is the younger sister of Queen and the daugther of
King George VI and his wife Queen Elizabeth.
Born 1930
Died 2002
6. Princess Alexandra is Queen Elizabeth's only female 1st cousin born into the royal family. Her father was Prince George. She began performing
royal duties at age 15 when her cousin became queen. The Queen has
several male 1st cousin but most did not wish to perform royal duties,
so she depended heavily on Princess Alexandra to represent her.
Born 1936
7. Princess Anne is the Queen's daughter. In 1987 she was given the title of Princess Royal.

Charles especially relates to the older members of his family and he would have NEVER ALLOWED 80 year women to curtsey to a 20 year old.

Nor would have the Queen or the Queen mother, especially after Diana stirred things up. The Queen Mother was in contact with her daughter daily and never would she have slightest Princess Alice. Neither would she have placed Princess Margaret below Diana.

IMO the Queen has behaved quite badly towards Princess Alexandra and Princess Anne.

Diana in 1981 might have been automatically place higher than these two women not because she was married to the POW but because in previous generations female member of the BRF married did not stay within the BRF but married into other European royal families.

When Anne moved up the ladder in 1987 she may have again neglected Alexandra until Sophie or Camilla came into the picture.

Please stop bad mouthing Camilla, I actually just joined this Forum today because of all the negative/untrue things on this forum about her.
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  #533  
Old 08-09-2011, 08:26 PM
Midwestern Mom's Avatar
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Posts: 133
Who's bad mouthing Camilla? This thread isn't even about her per se.

However since you brought it up...like it or not she is always going to be viewed in a negative light by many people.


MM
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  #534  
Old 08-09-2011, 08:42 PM
sthreats's Avatar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Queen Camilla View Post
Diana was never 2nd after the Queen.

Diana depending on the year and in public vs private she may have been the lowest person on the totem pole. She might not even have rank high enough to get a curtesy from other members of the family.

The order of precedence was not created because of Camilla. It has always existed. Camilla is 4th and if Diana was still alive and married to POW she would be 4th.

Order of precedence 1981 IMO
  1. Queen Elizabeth II
  2. Queen Elizabeth
  3. Duchess of Windsor
  4. Princess Alice
  5. Princess Margaret
  6. Princess Alexandra
  7. Princess Anne
  8. Diana
Order of precedence 1987
  1. Queen Elizabeth II
  2. Queen Elizabeth
  3. Princess Anne
  4. Princess Alice
  5. Princess Margaret
  6. Princess Alexandra
  7. Diana
Current order of Precedence
  1. Queen Elizabeth II
  2. Princess Anne
  3. Princess Alexandra
  4. Camilla Princess of Wales, Duchess of Cornwall
  5. Sophie
  6. Zara Phillips
  7. Princess Beatrice
  8. Princess Eugenie
  9. Catherine Duchess of Cambridge
1. Queen Elizabeth II became Queen in 1952 upon the death of her father.
She was crowned Queen in 1953.
She is the reigning monarch.
Born 1926
2. Queen Elizabeth began Queen in 1936 when her husband became King.
She was crowned Queen in 1937.
She was the Queen Consort.
When her daughter ascended to the throne, it was suggested that she
be called the Queen Mother as both mother and daughter were named
Elizabeth to avoid confusion. She disliked being called Queen Mum or
Queen Mother. Upon the death of her husband in 1952, she was still
queen but she was now Dowager Queen rather than Queen Consort.
A queen outranks all princess no matter who.
Born 1900
Died 2002
3. Duchess of Windsor married an ex-King. Although she married King
Edward VIII after he abdicated and she was blamed for the
constitutional crisis and given the title of Duchess. She outranked
Diana.
Charles BOWED to the Duchess of Windor in PUBLIC on 2 occasions.
If Charles bows, Diana curtesys.
The big story when Charles married Diana was whether the Duchess of
Windsor would be invited to the wedding and when she was not. The
media went after the British Royal Family.
Born 1896
Died 1986
4. Princess Alice was the Duchess of Glouchester. When her husband
died in 1974 she asked the Queen for permission to be called Princess
Alice although she was not born into the BRF family. The Queen
granted her request. Diana was never Princess Diana as she was not
born into the family and the Queen never gave her permission to
use this title. Title before the name implies born into the family, unless
the Queen give permission. The Duchess married Prince Henry in 1935.
She was the sister-in-law of the Queen Mother and Duchess of Windsor.
She was the Aunt through marriage of the Queen. She worked for the
BRF from 1935 until 1999. She was 98 years old when she stopped
performing royal duties.
Born 1901
Died 2004
5. Princess Margaret is the younger sister of Queen and the daugther of
King George VI and his wife Queen Elizabeth.
Born 1930
Died 2002
6. Princess Alexandra is Queen Elizabeth's only female 1st cousin born into
the royal family. Her father was Prince George. She began performing
royal duties at age 15 when her cousin became queen. The Queen has
several male 1st cousin but most did not wish to perform royal duties,
so she depended heavily on Princess Alexandra to represent her. I
believe she was only 15 when she went on her 1st solo foreign tour.
Born 1936
7. Princess Anne is the Queen's daughter. In 1987 she was given the title
of Princess Royal. With this titie she became THE most important
Princess in the BRF.

I believe the order of precedence has never changed it has alway been is based on generation. First blood relatives then through marriage.

Charles especially relates to the older members of his family and he would have NEVER ALLOWED 80 year women to curtsey to a 20 year old. And least of all his grandmother who he loved more than his mother.

All the Diana fanatics and the Camilla bashers can post all the lies but they are still lies.

The order of precedence never changes, just the people within.

The private order of precedence IMO is connected with the Royal Family Order.

The public might think that just because someone marries into the BRF they instantly become a member of the royal family. This is not true.

I think this is where the private vs public comes into pay.

In public Kate is a member of the BRF but in private she is not. Camilla, Sophie and Diana all went through it.

I think until the Queen gives the person the Royal Family Order portrait of herself, she does not consider that person a members of her family and thus they must bow to everyone who has the portrait.

The Queen is know to be cheap/neglectful in bestowing gifts and titles to her family.
Her daughter Anne was not given the portrait until 1969. However the Queen received George V FO portrait when she was a little girl. George V died when she was 10 years old and he had already presented it to her.

Princess Anne had to wait until she was an adult.

The Queen waits until after they have performed royal duties for several years before presenting them with any titles/honors.

Louise, Edwards and Sophie's daughter should rank higher than Kate as she is of the same generation as Zara, Peter, William, Harry, Beatrice, Eugenie but as she is a minor no one is expect to bow to her.

When Louise is given the family order she will outrank Catherine.

To the Diana fanantics and the Camilla bashers, Camilla already received the family order. Kate has not.

To the fanantics and bashers, who couldn't figure out why Diana was 8th when she married into the family and why Camilla is 4th. It is because 4 of the people who were ahead of Diana died before Charles married Camilla.

I also think Sophie's and Camilla's relationship is sour because Sophie had the FO before Camilla married into the family but once Camilla received it. Sophie had to curtesy to Camilla. Before receiving the FO but after marrying into the BRF Camilla had to curtesy to Sophie. But Charles might have pulled rank when the Queen wasn't around and wouldn't allow it.

Some of the information is incorrect. I believe this forum has a thread on Order of Precedence and the information is on Debrets.com. The order has nothing to do with the royal family order which is. Gift from the sovereign to family members.
The order for females (partial list )
The Queen
The Dowager Queen
The daughters of the Queen
The cousins of the Queen
The wife of the heir to the throne
The wife of the son of the heir
The Queen's grandaughters
The wives of the Queen's sons
The wives of Queen's grandsons
The Queen's great granddaughters
The wive's of the Queen's cousins

The list also includes Countess, Duchesses, etc.

The Duchess of Windsor would not be above Diana or Camilla in this order. She Wwould be either a Duchess of England or Great Britan so she would be further dOwn the list. Diana and Charles showed respect and courtesy to an elderly relAtive.
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Old 08-09-2011, 09:14 PM
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I had a look at the order of precedence for men and for women on WIKI and tried to work out who would be where if Charles became King tomorrow, does anyone want to try to do up the two lists?
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Old 08-09-2011, 09:26 PM
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I had a look at the order of precedence for men and for women on WIKI and tried to work out who would be where if Charles became King tomorrow, does anyone want to try to do up the two lists?
How did those ads get on my post, I didn't put them there, how can I remove them?
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Old 08-09-2011, 09:28 PM
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I believe you only see ads when you haven't logged in and/or you are a visitor. I don't see any ads in your post.
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Old 08-09-2011, 09:29 PM
ada's Avatar
ada ada is offline
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Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: pomona, Australia
Posts: 540
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zonk View Post
I believe you only see ads when you haven't logged in and/or you are a visitor. I don't see any ads in your post.
Thanks Zonk, I don't know what happened there
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  #539  
Old 08-09-2011, 09:53 PM
Vasillisos Markos's Avatar
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Join Date: May 2009
Location: Crete, United States
Posts: 1,159
Quote:
Originally Posted by Queen Camilla View Post


I disagree, with Diana outranking Princess Anne, because the Princess Royal title, means Anne out ranks all other BRF princess, regardless if the man is in the room.




Order of precedence 1981
  1. Queen Elizabeth II
  2. Queen Elizabeth
  3. Duchess of Windsor
  4. Princess Alice
  5. Princess Margaret
  6. Princess Alexandra
  7. Princess Anne
  8. Diana
Order of Precedence 1987
  1. Queen Elizabeth II
  2. Queen Elizabeth
  3. Princess Anne
  4. Pirncess Alice
  5. Princess Margaret
  6. Pirncess Alexandra
  7. Diana

Please stop bad mouthing Camilla, I actually just joined this Forum today because of all the negative/untrue things on this forum about her.
My dear Queen Camilla,

I am interested in determining the source for your conclusion that the Princess Royal automatically outranked everyone except for the Queen Mother in order of female precedence. I had always understood that the order of precedence was determined by the relationship of the individual to the monarch. In 1987, the Queen Mother would be first, as the Queen's mother and then Princess Margaret, as the Queen's sister. Then the children of the Queen, etc. Please correct me if I am wrong.

I have not seen anyone badmouthing Camilla on this thread. Perhaps you are referring to another thread? Welcome to the Forum from a fellow Illinoisan.
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  #540  
Old 08-09-2011, 10:00 PM
Aliza's Avatar
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Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Tel Aviv, Israel
Posts: 240
Quote:
Originally Posted by Queen Camilla View Post
The most recent change to private precedence occurred in 2005 when the Queen issued her private list of 'female' precedence in which Camilla ranked after the Princess Royal and Princess Alexandra. This was a very major change, because whilst they were still alive, The Queen Mother and The Princess of Wales both ranked before the Princess Royal. No official reason has ever been given for the change to private precedence, although rumour suggests that the Queen took this highly unusual step of 'demoting' the 'wife of the Prince of Wales' in order to appease those of her subjects who were still unhappy with the marriage of Charles and Camilla.


I disagree, with Diana outranking Princess Anne, because the Princess Royal title, means Anne out ranks all other BRF princess, regardless if the man is in the room.

Again Diana was never 2nd or 3rd.

IMO I believe all the people who refer to the Queen by her nickname Lilibeth out rank those that do not except for the Princess Royal.


Order of precedence 1981
  1. Queen Elizabeth II
  2. Queen Elizabeth
  3. Duchess of Windsor
  4. Princess Alice
  5. Princess Margaret
  6. Princess Alexandra
  7. Princess Anne
  8. Diana
Order of Precedence 1987
  1. Queen Elizabeth II
  2. Queen Elizabeth
  3. Princess Anne
  4. Pirncess Alice
  5. Princess Margaret
  6. Pirncess Alexandra
  7. Diana
Diana, if alive today and still married to POW, would still rank #4 the same rank as Camilla. (The only reason she moved up to the 4th spot was because 4 people died.)

1. Queen Elizabeth II became Queen in 1952 upon the death of her father.
She was crowned Queen in 1953.
She is the reigning monarch.
Born 1926
2. Queen Elizabeth began Queen in 1936 when her husband became King.
She was crowned Queen in 1937.
She was the Queen Consort.
When her daughter ascended to the throne, it was suggested that she
be called the Queen Mother as both mother and daughter were named
Elizabeth to avoid confusion. She disliked being called Queen Mum or
Queen Mother. Upon the death of her husband in 1952, she was still
queen but she was now Dowager Queen rather than Queen Consort.
A queen outranks all princess no matter who.
Born 1900
Died 2002
3. Duchess of Windsor married an ex-King. Although she married King
Edward VIII after he abdicated and she was blamed for the
constitutional crisis and given the title of Duchess. She outranked
Diana.
Charles BOWED to the Duchess of Windor in PUBLIC on 2 occasions.
If Charles bows, Diana curtesys.
The big story when Charles married Diana was whether the Duchess of
Windsor would be invited to the wedding and when she was not. The
media went after the British Royal Family.
Born 1896
Died 1986
4. Princess Alice was the Duchess of Glouchester. When her husband
died in 1974 she asked the Queen for permission to be called Princess
Alice although she was not born into the BRF family. The Queen
granted her request. Diana was never Princess Diana as she was not
born into the family and the Queen never gave her permission to
use this title. Title before the name implies born into the family, unless
the Queen give permission. The Duchess married Prince Henry in 1935.
She was the sister-in-law of the Queen Mother and Duchess of Windsor.
She was the Aunt through marriage of the Queen. She worked for the
BRF from 1935 until 1999. She was 98 years old when she stopped
performing royal duties.
Born 1901
Died 2004
5. Princess Margaret is the younger sister of Queen and the daugther of
King George VI and his wife Queen Elizabeth.
Born 1930
Died 2002
6. Princess Alexandra is Queen Elizabeth's only female 1st cousin born into the royal family. Her father was Prince George. She began performing
royal duties at age 15 when her cousin became queen. The Queen has
several male 1st cousin but most did not wish to perform royal duties,
so she depended heavily on Princess Alexandra to represent her.
Born 1936
7. Princess Anne is the Queen's daughter. In 1987 she was given the title of Princess Royal.

Charles especially relates to the older members of his family and he would have NEVER ALLOWED 80 year women to curtsey to a 20 year old.

Nor would have the Queen or the Queen mother, especially after Diana stirred things up. The Queen Mother was in contact with her daughter daily and never would she have slightest Princess Alice. Neither would she have placed Princess Margaret below Diana.

IMO the Queen has behaved quite badly towards Princess Alexandra and Princess Anne.

Diana in 1981 might have been automatically place higher than these two women not because she was married to the POW but because in previous generations female member of the BRF married did not stay within the BRF but married into other European royal families.

When Anne moved up the ladder in 1987 she may have again neglected Alexandra until Sophie or Camilla came into the picture.

Please stop bad mouthing Camilla, I actually just joined this Forum today because of all the negative/untrue things on this forum about her.
According to Debretts, Diana was considered the third lady in the land after her marriage, preceded only by HM and QEQM. One school of thought has it that HM revived the Princess Royal title in order to ensure that a Princess of the Blood was not outranked by one who "married in" and who by that time, was causing distress and considering leaving the RF.
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