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  #81  
Old 06-01-2014, 09:31 PM
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Germanic Ancestry of the House of Windsor

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Originally Posted by BeatrixFan View Post
A few of us have been discussing the heritage and nationality of the British Royal Family.

I've started to construct 'nationality' trees to try and solve the mystery altogether. The nationality of the RF depends very much on how you determine nationality. You have 3 choices;

1) Nationality of Father
2) Nationality of Mother
3) Place of Birth (Jus Soli)

The first tree I have constructed shows all 3 details.

The Nationality printed in BLUE shows the paternal nationality. The nationality printed in PINK shows the maternal nationality. And the nationality printed in GREEN shows the jus soli nationality.

To determine the nationality of a Monarch to work from, I used the method that if two nationalities appeared for the same person, i.e - German, British, German - that person was German with a 2/3 ratio. (Hey - I'm no scientist!)


In My Opinion, Nationality is determined by the Maternal Line.

I've stopped at Queen Victoria but I am going to go furthur - so the whole tree might change but I don't think it will.



So, what does it show?

Queen Victoria

Paternal - British
Maternal - German
Jus Soli - British
My Opinion - German


Edward VII



Paternal - German
Maternal - British
Jus Soli - British
My Opinion - German


George V



Paternal - British
Maternal - Danish
Jus Soli - British
My Opinion - Danish


Edward VIII



Paternal - British
Maternal - German
Jus Soli - British
My Opinion - German


George VI



Paternal - British
Maternal - German
Jus Soli - British
My Opinion - German



Elizabeth II



Paternal - British
Maternal - British
Jus Soli - British
My Opinion - British


Charles (III?)



Paternal - Danish/Russian/Greek/German
Maternal - British
Jus Soli - British
My Opinion - British

------------------------------------------

My Opinion Explained

As I see it, Queen Elizabeth II is the first Monarch who could consider herself to be British. I base my opinion on the maternal nationality - her mother was British, therefore, Elizabeth is British. This means that Prince Charles is also British based on maternal nationality.


As you can see, it isn't easy to determine at all. This is the line for Charles, Andrew, Edward and Anne only - I haven't looked into the Minor Royals (soon to follow) which may be a little bit more colorful.


Officially (and luckily for the British Royal Family), nationality is determined by jus soli. Therefore all Monarchs since Queen Victoria at least, have been British.

What do you all think?


Queen Mary's mother, Mary Adelaide wasn't German. She was a male-line granddaughter of George III, and her father was Prince Adolphus, Duke of Cambridge. Mary Adelaide's mother, however, was German. Also, with this chart, the actual nationality of the parent must be established. Because although Prince Philip's father's ancestry was Danish/Russian, he himself was born in Greece. So, if one is to go by the country in which the people on the chart's parents were born in, Prince Philip is half Greek and half British, as his mother, Princess Alice was born in England at Windsor Castle.
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  #82  
Old 06-28-2014, 07:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Calum View Post
Queen Mary's mother, Mary Adelaide wasn't German. She was a male-line granddaughter of George III, and her father was Prince Adolphus, Duke of Cambridge. Mary Adelaide's mother, however, was German.
Princess Mary Adelaide was very much German by blood ancestry...

Out of her 126 nearest ancestors,only 3 of them were not from German families and they were French: Count Eustache II de Croy-Roeulx, Alexandre Desmier d'Olbreuse and Jacquette Poussard de Vendre...

The rest of them all were from German families,no matter where they reigned or resided...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Calum View Post
Also, with this chart, the actual nationality of the parent must be established. Because although Prince Philip's father's ancestry was Danish/Russian, he himself was born in Greece. So, if one is to go by the country in which the people on the chart's parents were born in, Prince Philip is half Greek and half British, as his mother, Princess Alice was born in England at Windsor Castle.
If we speak about blood,his ancestry is also German,as both Greece and Denmark were ruled by the collateral branch of the German Oldenburg dynasty-line von Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glucksburg,while Russia was ruled by other collateral branch of this same German Oldenburg dynasty-line von Holstein-Gottorp who inherited the throne from Romanovs in the 18th century...

And for centuries both these dynasties married Princesses from German families,just like Hanoverians did since they came from Germany to rule in Britain...
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  #83  
Old 06-28-2014, 08:00 AM
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Germanic Ancestry of the House of Windsor

This thread is confusing me. Where your ancestors came from and your nationality are two separate things. My family came from Belgium, Italy and England in various waves to America. But I am an American born there and influenced there.

Take Prince William - the origin of some of his blood is German from the Hanovers and Philip's side. But he hasn't ever been to Germany that I can recall. He doesn't speak German. He doesn't root for Germany in sporting events. He is British.

If your not a native tribe, most of the people of a country came from somewhere else whether it was one generation ago or 100. The majority of the people assimilated to the language, culture and heritage of the their new country.
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  #84  
Old 06-28-2014, 02:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skippyboo View Post
This thread is confusing me. Where your ancestors came from and your nationality are two separate things. My family came from Belgium, Italy and England in various waves to America. But I am an American born there and influenced there.

Take Prince William - the origin of some of his blood is German from the Hanovers and Philip's side. But he hasn't ever been to Germany that I can recall. He doesn't speak German. He doesn't root for Germany in sporting events. He is British.

If your not a native tribe, most of the people of a country came from somewhere else whether it was one generation ago or 100. The majority of the people assimilated to the language, culture and heritage of the their new country.
If your family came from Belgium, Italy and England to work in China where you would be born,for example,does that make you a Chinese even if you don't have a drop of Chinese blood?

The same goes for British royal family...they came from Germany,married Germans and still ruled in Britain...they are British as they hold British passports but their roots and ancestry is mostly German...and it's a fact,not something we create in our own minds...

How would you describe British monarchs prior to Queen Victoria...where they British or German,as they ruled both in the United Kingdom and the Kingdom of Hanover at the same time?
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  #85  
Old 06-28-2014, 03:01 PM
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Well, if you would ask any German citizen what they think about the nationality of the Windsors, they would tell you that they are utterly and completely British. OK, Prince Philipp speaks very good German, so what. Many people speak foreign languages.

As a German person I can only see them as British, whatever their family roots.
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  #86  
Old 06-28-2014, 03:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc23 View Post
If your family came from Belgium, Italy and England to work in China where you would be born,for example,does that make you a Chinese even if you don't have a drop of Chinese blood?
I know people who were born in China, moved to the Netherlands and their kids were born in NL:, the kids consider themselves dutch..

I don't really "get" this thread...is it considered bad to have germanic ancestors?
Many royals have and until a hundred years ago, when a country needed a new king because the royal line had died out, the throne would be offered to a member of some other royal family (and not to a non-royal from the country itself). Since a lot of these families intermarried and where related they pretty much all had germanic blood...
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  #87  
Old 06-28-2014, 04:20 PM
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http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...-the-core.html
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  #88  
Old 06-28-2014, 07:06 PM
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My grandmother was born in England at Wimbledon and my great-grandparents were all also born in Britain but my parents and myself regard ourselves as 100% Australian.

Where a person is born and how a person regards themselves in this regard is also important and as the BRF regard themselves as British. Philip was the last one born overseas and even he had a mother born in England (Windsor Castle to be precise and you can't get much more English than that world renowned symbol of Britain and England than Windsor Castle).

He chose, as a young man, to be British due to ancestry and upbringing and that is therefore what he is. His wife, of course was born in the UK as were both her parents and all her grandparents. If she isn't English/British than I can't be an Aussie as I have fewer ancestors born in Australia than she has born in Britain back that far.
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  #89  
Old 06-28-2014, 08:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee-Z View Post
I know people who were born in China, moved to the Netherlands and their kids were born in NL:, the kids consider themselves dutch..

I don't really "get" this thread...is it considered bad to have germanic ancestors?
Many royals have and until a hundred years ago, when a country needed a new king because the royal line had died out, the throne would be offered to a member of some other royal family (and not to a non-royal from the country itself). Since a lot of these families intermarried and where related they pretty much all had germanic blood...
This is not a thread about how you consider yourself,I consider myself,but what you are...ancestry is not something determined by our will how to consider ourselves based on our life circumstances,but something that we are already born with...

For example,I am born in Belgrade(Serbia) and consider myself Serbian being bor and raised here,but my ancestry is Greek,Italian,Montenegrin,Croatian,Bosnian and only 1/16th Serbian... and my subjective feeling about how I consider myself based on my life circumstances won't change my ancestry as it is fact I am born with...

Queen Alexandra considered herself Danish from top to toe and hated Germans because of Schleswig-Holstein war,but in fact her ancestry was completely German without any drop of Danish blood...

Out of her nearest 126 ancestors,only 4 were not Germans and they were Esperance du Puy de Montbrun, Eleonore Elizabeth de la Cave, Eleonore Desmier d'Olbreuse and Catharina Francisca de Croy-Roeulx...Those 4 were French,but the rest(122 left) were Germans...and it is a known fact if you take a look at any genealogy chart...

So,subjective feeling about ourselves and genetic code we all have when we are born are two different things...and we discuss facts about royal ancestry without giving either good or bad opinion about it,just the way it is

As you say,one can change passport various times through life time and change opinion how to consider yourself depending on circumstances,but this is not something we can change as it is unchangeable,unlike the passport and subjective feeling about ourselves and how we personally feel...

Of course,I have never said it's either good or bad having Germanic ancestry,as this is a fact,not something I can share my opinion in order to create something differently :-/
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  #90  
Old 06-28-2014, 09:28 PM
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By that logic then, what is the ancestry of the Germanic peoples? How far back do you take this? Those Germanic peoples would've originally come to Germany from elsewhere.

I'm no expert here, but are we not all descendants of homo erectus who originated in Africa a couple of million years ago?
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  #91  
Old 06-28-2014, 09:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PetticoatLane View Post
By that logic then, what is the ancestry of the Germanic peoples? How far back do you take this? Those Germanic peoples would've originally come to Germany from elsewhere.

I'm no expert here, but are we not all descendants of homo erectus who originated in Africa a couple of million years ago?
During the times of the Roman Empire, wasn't most of the Western European lands Gaul?

Even going back a bit sooner than Lucy, if my history is correct, William the Conqueror came from Normandy and for years before the Germanic influence of the Hanovers, the British court was held in France and all the aristocracy and those close to the court spoke French. I believe this continued through the Plantagenet era.
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  #92  
Old 06-28-2014, 10:15 PM
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What is "German"? 45 days ago I was in Paris with my husband. We were in Montmartre, sitting outside a cafe and drinking hot chocolate (it was a bit cold). Suddenly a man said to us that we were sitting on his place. At first we did not pay him much attention but he continued talking to us. He told us he had arrived in Paris very early that morning and had sat at our place for many hours before. He asked us where we were from and told us he was German. Then he asked if we had ever been to Germany. I told him my husband had never been there but I had been to Munich (oktober fest :-)) many years ago. He laughed and said Munich was not in Germany. I looked at him and said that it was in Bayern, not Prussia, but it sure was in Germany.
Anyway, I was very surprised by his line of thought. I guess his mind was still in the XVIII century or earlier.
I think what defines nationality is first and foremost language and culture. It has nothing to do with where you were born or what your genetic inheritance is.
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  #93  
Old 06-29-2014, 01:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cmbruno View Post
I think what defines nationality is first and foremost language and culture. It has nothing to do with where you were born or what your genetic inheritance is.
English language is a Germanic language for example...if you search for it in google you will find it why...

Nationality generally refers to what country you are a citizen of (Canadian, German, American, Japanese), but one can argue with that as there are different theories about it...

Ethnicity vaguely refers to what "original" socially and linguistically-coherent group of people one is descended from. This is different from nationality since while most people living in Germany and Austria are citizens of their respective countries claiming their respective nationalities, for the most part, they all belong to one German ethnic group sharing a pretty common culture and language (while many immigrant groups live in these countries and can claim German or Austrian nationality, they aren't ethnically German).
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  #94  
Old 06-29-2014, 06:03 AM
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This is not a thread about how you consider yourself,I consider myself,but what you are...ancestry is not something determined by our will how to consider ourselves based on our life circumstances,but something that we are already born with...
Ah, okay, that's what you mean..(which by the way is a very different idea from the beginning of this thread, hence the confusion)
So basically, that what you are born with, what's in your blood, in you're DNA..

In that case you should look much further than only a couple of hundred years, because that's pretty much impossible to determine; like for instance Q.Alexandra who you state has almost all german ancestors, but is that really true when you look 500 or 1000 years backwards?

And depending on your religion, aren't we basically all decended from ancient tribes in Africa or from Adam and Eve (or one of the various other origins)?
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  #95  
Old 06-29-2014, 07:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Lee-Z View Post
Ah, okay, that's what you mean..(which by the way is a very different idea from the beginning of this thread, hence the confusion)
So basically, that what you are born with, what's in your blood, in you're DNA..

In that case you should look much further than only a couple of hundred years, because that's pretty much impossible to determine; like for instance Q.Alexandra who you state has almost all german ancestors, but is that really true when you look 500 or 1000 years backwards?
It's not something I state,but what her genealogy states I was watching her nearest 126 ancestors which means that I "went back" even up to 1590 and checked the origin of all those families from the list and except those 4 persons mentioned,every family had it's origins in Germany...

Ok,as you suggested,I now decided to go further generations back and check her 864 nearest ancestors and out of all those persons,only 38 of them were not Germans...which means that only less than 5% of her 864 ancestors were not from German families...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee-Z View Post
And depending on your religion, aren't we basically all decended from ancient tribes in Africa or from Adam and Eve (or one of the various other origins)?

Lol,interesting question If you take a look at Queen Elizabeth II's genealogy,you could see that she also descended even from the Emperors of China or from Prince Vlad Dracul,father of the famous "Count Dracula",so everything is possible

I love genealogy and somewhere on this forum I posted the lines both from Chinese Emperors and Vlad Dracul to Queen Elizabeth II and it is very interesting to follow it and see
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  #96  
Old 06-29-2014, 07:41 AM
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It's not something I state,but what her genealogy states I was watching her nearest 126 ancestors which means that I "went back" up to 1590 and checked the origin of all those families from the list and except those 4 persons mentioned and every family had it's origins in Germany...

I decided to go even further back and check her 864 nearest ancestors and out of all those persons,only 38 of them were not Germans...
Love genealogy (unfortunately my own consists completely of "peasants", so pretty hard to find out after about 500+ years), but above is exactly my point:
if you go back to the nearest 864 ancestors and "only 38 were not Germans", you can probably only look at where they were at their time...
The 864 could all have lived in Germany (or the part of the world that is now Germany), but that doesn't mean that their DNA was german and that's what matters, right?

My own ancestors for the last 500 years have lived in the Low Lands (won't say netherlands because that wasn't the same then as it is now), basically in a range of 100 km from where I was born (yes all of them, I know, very uneventful ); but it is almost certain that my blood is not from the particular area, because that wasn't inhabited 1000-2000 years prior to that...
And ofcourse (as my own family loves to point out ) you can only tell by the parents that are officially entered in the baptism or birth registers, but that doesn't give you a 100% certainty that they were actually the birth parents... (at which point my cousins still keep hope that we descend from a Spanish knight or Viking warrior)

And for the person who was amused by a german man making the distinction between Munich/Bavaria/Germany:
ofcourse he was wrong in Bavaria not in Germany, probably (as you said) figured Germany equals Prussia,
however: I myself am from the Netherlands but not from Holland. Even though it's confused a lot (even by dutch people), if i'm in the mood, i actually correct people when they tell me I'm from Holland, so that's probably the same sentiment the german guy was going for...
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  #97  
Old 06-29-2014, 07:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee-Z View Post
Love genealogy (unfortunately my own consists completely of "peasants", so pretty hard to find out after about 500+ years), but above is exactly my point:
if you go back to the nearest 864 ancestors and "only 38 were not Germans", you can probably only look at where they were at their time...
The 864 could all have lived in Germany (or the part of the world that is now Germany), but that doesn't mean that their DNA was german and that's what matters, right?

No The main criteria is the first document of the family and the area where they originated from...

The House of Oldenburg is always a North German dynasty,no matter where they actually ruled or reigned by the coincidence of fate(intermarriages and dynastic rules) and can't be considered Icelandic,for example,just because they happened to rule in Iceland...

Just like the House of Wittelsbach is not Hungarian,but German dynasty from Bavaria...
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  #98  
Old 06-30-2014, 11:06 AM
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What makes the British? | Oxford Today

Genetic inheritance doesn't make all that diference nowadays. Saddly, still, just physical appearance does. But language, culture, custom are what define nationality. When people share the same way of living within the same space.
Here in Brazil, a large majority of self declared Blacks (we don't use the term Afro-descendent), when asked to define their ancestry, chose "Brazilian" instead of African.
Going back to the German ancestry of the British Royal Family, I say that from the moment the first Hanoverian (George III) had English as his first language, they became British. And as for genetic inheritance, I don't think that their DNA is much more different than the one of the major (western?) European population.
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  #99  
Old 06-30-2014, 07:29 PM
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There has never been an "english" dynasty. The windsors/coburgs and hanoverians were german, the stuarts scottish of french origin, the tudors were welsh, the plataganets and normans were french while the kings before them were anglo saxon ie german. But then most of the population are of angle saxon descent with a bit of celtic and in some places a huge chunk of viking. So all together it makes the german ancestry of the royal family irrelevant. They are as british as the rest of the population.
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Old 06-30-2014, 10:43 PM
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But then most of the population are of angle saxon descent with a bit of celtic and in some places a huge chunk of viking. So all together it makes the german ancestry of the royal family irrelevant. They are as british as the rest of the population.
True,Anglo-Saxons were Germanic tribes and the English language is in fact Germanic language...

You are right,with all that having in mind,most people in Britain in fact do have Germanic roots,not just their Royal family...
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