The Royal Forums Coat of Arms

Go Back   The Royal Forums > Reigning Houses > British Royals

Join The Royal Forums Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
  #61  
Old 11-23-2006, 12:30 AM
afro1920's Avatar
Commoner
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Tallahassee, United States
Posts: 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by lord_rankin
While I would never consider the present Royal Family German it is interesting to note that Edward VIII was the first monarch since George I who did not speak the language. Kaiser Wilhelm II commented more than once about Queen Victoria and Edward VII ability to speak the language like natives.
Well according to some sources, Victoria's first language was German as both her mother and governess/nurse was German. It makes sense that she would speak it so fluently.
__________________

__________________
Reply With Quote
  #62  
Old 11-23-2006, 09:32 AM
ysbel's Avatar
Heir Apparent
TRF Author
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: New York, United States
Posts: 5,390
Quote:
Originally Posted by afro1920
Well according to some sources, Victoria's first language was German as both her mother and governess/nurse was German. It makes sense that she would speak it so fluently.
Also when Victoria was small, the political union between Great Britain and Hanover was still very much alive. Only when she became Queen did the union between the two become broken as a woman couldn't inherit the Hanoverian throne.

There still were enough political ties between the two during George III's reign for Great Britain to send troops from the King's German lands to fight the American colonists in the American Revolution.
__________________

__________________
"One thing we can do is make the choice to view the world in a healthy way. We can choose to see the world as safe with only moments of danger rather than seeing the world as dangerous with only moments of safety."
-- Deepak Chopra
Reply With Quote
  #63  
Old 11-24-2006, 03:55 AM
Aristocracy
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Philadelphia, United States
Posts: 161
This is really interesting, but what about the ethnic aspect to it? I wonder what all their breakdowns are by ethnicty?
__________________
"I had this garden party for my father's birthday, I said to RSVP cause it was a sit-down dinner, but people came who did not RSVP and so I was totally buggin'...but, by the end of the day, it was like, the more the merrier...So, if the government could just get in the kitchen, rearrange some things, we could certainly party with the Ha-ti-ans." Cher--Clueless
Reply With Quote
  #64  
Old 11-24-2006, 04:30 AM
Warren's Avatar
Administrator
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 15,427
Ethnic? Germanic, Saxon, Anglo-Saxon. What ethnicity do you mean?
__________________
Seeking information? Check out the extensive Royal A-Z
Reply With Quote
  #65  
Old 11-24-2006, 11:52 AM
Skydragon's Avatar
Imperial Majesty
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: London and Highlands, United Kingdom
Posts: 10,943
Reading through this thread, I have to confess to having a good laugh.

When we are in Scotland, it is so funny to see a big burly yorkshireman, dressed in a kilt, informing everyone that he is a scot, because his great great granny was a scot.

Whatever way you want to disguise it, the British Royal family do have German ancestry and I don't think it is something to be ashamed of!
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #66  
Old 11-24-2006, 12:32 PM
Aristocracy
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Philadelphia, United States
Posts: 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by Warren
Ethnic? Germanic, Saxon, Anglo-Saxon. What ethnicity do you mean?
Well, yeah! I'm referring to all of the ethnicities that make up the RF. Like being French is a nationality but it doesn't explain like your ethnic makeup. Maybe I'm not explaining it correctly. But I know they've got Saxon, Angolo-Saxon and so on but aren't they part Slavic as well? If anyone has the details on that I would love to know.
__________________
"I had this garden party for my father's birthday, I said to RSVP cause it was a sit-down dinner, but people came who did not RSVP and so I was totally buggin'...but, by the end of the day, it was like, the more the merrier...So, if the government could just get in the kitchen, rearrange some things, we could certainly party with the Ha-ti-ans." Cher--Clueless
Reply With Quote
  #67  
Old 11-25-2006, 08:37 AM
Warren's Avatar
Administrator
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 15,427
If you trace the lines of descent back far enough you'll find ancestors from every corner of Europe, plus Constantinople.
For a selection of "exotic" ancestors, see this post.
__________________
Seeking information? Check out the extensive Royal A-Z
Reply With Quote
  #68  
Old 11-27-2006, 09:46 AM
Jo of Palatine's Avatar
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Munich, Germany
Posts: 3,323
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vita
This is really interesting, but what about the ethnic aspect to it? I wonder what all their breakdowns are by ethnicty?
I believe being "German" is more a cultural thing than an ethnic one, as the German culture for centuries was like a roof over the numerous ethnical roots in the Middle of Europe. In all parts of the Holy Roman Empire of Germany people of Germanic descend lived together with local people and intermarried, so it's really impossible to say who is who because of what.

It's interesting that we take our word for our land and people (Deutschland and Deutsche) from a single Germanic tribe (The Teutons - via "Teutsche" zu today's "Deutsche") while the rest of the world views us a being "Germans" from the much larger ethnical group of the "Germanics" - who in the 400s at the "Voelkerwanderung" moved across Europe partly because the "Arians" (Indo-Germans or Huns) came up from India via Turkey and the Balkan (Hungary!) to settle here...

So, it's better not to discuss ethnic heritage when you talk about Germans but concentrate on the German culture which was open to anyone as long as schooling was affordable. It is a sad fact though that even the mulit-national Habsburgs considered their Hungarian branch as ethnically minor due to their foreign blood - when emperor Franz Joseph fell in love with an archduchess from the Hungarian branch of the family, he was sincerely discouraged to seek this marriage. And it could not have been the close relationship, as the alternative, princess Helene of Bavaria was his first cousin and much closer related... On meeting with Helene, Franz Joseph fell in love with her younger sister "Sisi" - Elisabeth and the rest is history....
__________________
'To dare is to lose one step for but a moment, not to dare is to lose oneself forever' - Crown Prince Frederick of Denmark in a letter to Miss Mary Donaldson as stated by them on their official engagement interview.
Reply With Quote
  #69  
Old 11-07-2011, 01:40 AM
Courtier
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Green Bay, United States
Posts: 530
I have just started studying this thread and have been wondering if anyone has used a good genealogy program to input all this data. I personally use the PAF put out by the LDS and find that it is excellent. There is room for additional titles, notes, sources, pictures etc. If you are dilligent about all data, dates, places etc, You end up with an easily understood record. It is imperative that you list all illigiment children and who the parents are. The program even can give you correct relationships.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #70  
Old 11-07-2011, 03:00 PM
SLV's Avatar
SLV SLV is offline
Courtier
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Amsterdam, Netherlands
Posts: 679
Wonderful thread!
Beatrixfan, I applaud you for all your work!
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #71  
Old 11-07-2011, 06:55 PM
Commoner
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: ., Israel
Posts: 35
I think one need to take into account the social aspects as well, if we look at the royal families in pre-WWI I think it's hard to strongly affiliate them with a specific nation - this did not say that they weren't British, German etc. but that there were a strong bond of class solidarity between the European royals that for some extent was stronger than the national bond to their respective nations.

Take for example WWI, millions of British soldiers perished and yet George V only bother to renounce his house German name and titles in 1917 (!) and even then its was probably due to seeing whats became of his Russian cousin. The German relatives of the BRF didn't see any problem with having British titles and fighting against Britain.

Or take another example, for centuries its was accepted that heirs only marry foreign royals, this pattern with BRF stopped after the war, the only heir that marry a foreign royal was Elizabeth II but her fiancée was forced to renounce all his titles and take his British relatives name.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #72  
Old 11-08-2011, 12:13 AM
Vasillisos Markos's Avatar
Serene Highness
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Crete, United States
Posts: 1,159
My dear Tiberivs,

But this is what one does (renouncing German titles and names) when one is a constitutional monarch. George V was persuaded by his ministers to take this step and was convinced to order the removal of all German banners belonging to members of the Garter from St. George's Chapel. No doubt he may have taken these actions on his own but he followed through on the advice of his ministers. And one can hardly blame him, considering the strong anti-German sentiment which was running through Britain at the time.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #73  
Old 11-08-2011, 01:53 AM
Commoner
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: ., Israel
Posts: 35
I disagree, George V didn't have to wait for the advice of his ministers in order to renounce those titles, he could do this on his own and for his other actions (such as interfering in parliamentarian politics) he was no puppet and was capable of independent political action.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #74  
Old 11-08-2011, 02:55 AM
Royal Highness
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: alpine village, Germany
Posts: 1,804
I'm always amused by this discussion. Because - does it really matter? Or even worse - this constant search for "bloodlines" is a very German thing to do: aren't we all (secretly or inmy case: openly) Germans? LOL....

But: The Queen's ancestry in regard to her right to sit on the English and Scottish throne is only important in one point: she is the most senior relative and was thus the heiress of the last king. And if you go up the line of kings and queens regnant you'll find that this principle has worked since William the Conqueror.

Even when the Georges came from Hanover: the British parliament had decided that the most senior relative was determined through two things: he must be the closest relative with protestant faith. Thus, George of Hanover (whose grandmother was the British princess Elizabeth Stuart) came on the throne.And today the throne is occupied by Elizabeth Windsor, who is the most senior descendant/relative of all kings and queens before her.

As for the foreign blood of the queen: that was mostly due to the British parliament in representation of the British people. After centuries of internal struggles between the in-laws of the British Royal brides, I believe all Lords were pretty happy with a marriage politic, that did not assign British duke's daughters the status of equality while a duke's daughter from Germany was considered an interesting marriage prospect. So in order to avoid internal struggles within Britian, the British Royal family kept to international and equal marriages and did not choose British brides till the 1900s. So where should the British blood come from?

As for being the most senior descendant/relative of all the kings and queens before her: Britain always had the possibility for women to ascend the throne. Most of Britains princesses married abroad, so chances were always good that when the male line ended, a foreign born prince or princess would inherit the throne. That was part of the principle of inheritance of the British throne.

And that's why Elizabeth Windsor sits on the throne today and not your all-British Severinus Applebottom from Little Prism near Netherhethelston in Cumbria. Or someplace else.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #75  
Old 11-08-2011, 06:57 AM
Royal Highness
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: alpine village, Germany
Posts: 1,804
Quote:
Originally Posted by branchg View Post
This is true. By marrying Lady Diana Spencer, Charles restored English (actually Stuart) blood to the British throne with the birth of his children. .
This is something I have heard soo often and it is simply untrue. What is "Stuart"-blood? The queen is a direct line descendant in legitimate descent from Mary Stuart, Queen of Scots and her son James VI./I. of Scotland and England. What more Stuart-blood can one have? Stuart-blood can be inherited both from father's or mother's side, the seniority of a claim to the throne is evaluated through male primogeniture with female inheritance rights if the male line does not lead to descendants. Since 1701 the claimant needs to be of Anglican faith without Catholic ancestors.

Through Diana William is a direct descendent from Mary, Queen of Scots, her son James VI./I., her grandson Charles I.and her great-grandson Charles II. - but while Charles II. was legitimate, his child, Diana's ancestor, was not. So William through Diana is only a Stuart-descendent through an illegitimate line. Which counts nothing when it come to inheriting rights to a Stuart-throne. There are no legitimate descendants of Charles II.. After his death James II, his brother, inherited. There are no legitimate descendants from James II. There are legitimate descendants of Henrietta Ann, sister of Charles II. and James II. This line leads to Duke Francis of Bavaria as senior descendant. So only if Charles had married Sophie, Duchess of Bavaria, the eldest child of Duke Francis, William would be the most senior Stuart descendant through his mother. That would have required that the Duchess change her faith from Catholic to Anglican, so that her son could still be in the legitimate line since the 1701 Act of Settlement. Only then the most senior Stuart-line in general and the most senior line after the 1701 change of law would have been brought together in Charles and Sophie's son. Which did not happen.

To bring it back to the important point of Stuart-descent: The Act of settlement declared that all Stuart-descendants from a catholic line should loose their right to the British throne. Thus, the most senior Stuart descendant with Anglican faith is HM the Queen. The most senior Stuart descendant with Catholic faith is Francis of Bavaria, who is the most senior descendant independant of religious beliefs.

All Diana brought into the BRF was a bit of illegitimate Stuart blood and she was not a senior descendant, just one of the many descendants of Charles II. illegitimate offspring. In fact, the current Duke of Buccleuch is the most senior descendant of Charles II. from an illegitimate line, closely followed by the Duke of Grafton.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #76  
Old 11-09-2011, 12:21 AM
Vasillisos Markos's Avatar
Serene Highness
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Crete, United States
Posts: 1,159
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiberivs View Post
I disagree, George V didn't have to wait for the advice of his ministers in order to renounce those titles, he could do this on his own and for his other actions (such as interfering in parliamentarian politics) he was no puppet and was capable of independent political action.
My dear Tiberivs,

I am afraid I don't follow you. I thought you were criticizing George V for changing the name of the royal house and for removing the German banners from the chapel. But it seems that you are actually in favor of his action. Regardless, I meant to state in my response that George took action upon the advice of his ministers. He considered himself totally British but I don't think he disliked his German heritage or name of his royal house at the same time. I believe he and his ministers thought this would be a prudent step to take during the war against Germany. I have not read that George considered doing this on his own volition. If I am wrong, can you steer me in the right direction where I can read about this? Thanks so much.

By the way, George's mother was virulently anti-Prussian and thought it was right to remove the banners but not all the German banners, just those from the Prussian royals. So even the Danish princess/British Queen was not opposed to all things German and I don't believe her son was either.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #77  
Old 11-09-2011, 12:41 PM
Warren's Avatar
Administrator
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 15,427
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kataryn View Post
...if Charles had married Sophie, Duchess of Bavaria, the eldest child of Duke Francis, William would be the most senior Stuart descendant...
Two small corrections...
Duchess Sophie in Bavaria [now Hereditary Princess of Liechtenstein] is the eldest daughter of Duke Franz's brother Max Emanuel, Duke in Bavaria.
__________________
Seeking information? Check out the extensive Royal A-Z
Reply With Quote
  #78  
Old 11-10-2011, 05:58 AM
Royal Highness
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: alpine village, Germany
Posts: 1,804
Quote:
Originally Posted by Warren View Post
Two small corrections...
Duchess Sophie in Bavaria [now Hereditary Princess of Liechtenstein] is the eldest daughter of Duke Franz's brother Max Emanuel, Duke in Bavaria.
You're right about the descent from Max, Warren. And Sophie is both Duchess in and Princess of Bavaria.

When Max Joseph of Pfalz-Birkenfeld-Bischweiler line of the House of Wittelsbach in 1799 inherited all lands of the Wittelsbachers, he brought his Palatinian relatives from the House of Wittelsbach, who were deposed by Napoleon, with him to Bavaria.These Palatinian Wittelsbachs had for centuries used the title of Duke in Bavaria, Count Palatine for the Head of the Palatinian line and Count/Countess Palatine for the members. Max Joseph created them all duke and duchess in Bavaria and added the style "HRH" for them. When this line was to die out in the male line, Max Emanuel was adopted and thus inherited the title of Duke in Bavaria from his childless cousin (inter-family adoptions are accepted in noble circles). So as a descendant from Ludwig III. in the direct line, Sophie was a Princess of Bavaria and due to her father, she was Duchess in Bavaria.

Sorry I mixed that up.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #79  
Old 11-16-2011, 01:55 PM
Courtier
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: philadelphia, United States
Posts: 728
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skydragon View Post

Whatever way you want to disguise it, the British Royal family do have German ancestry and I don't think it is something to be ashamed of!
True,there is nothing to be ashamed of as you are who you are and you can't change it no matter how much you change your name,place where you live etc...

The fact is that Prince Charles has 3/4 % of German blood,while Lady Diana also has traces of German blood as a descendant of the Houses of Hanover and Nassau through illegitimate lines...

Apart from all the famous houses,she is also descendant of some smaller Germanic noble families such as von Kielmansegg,von Meysenburg-Zuschen,von Ahlefeldt,zu Rantzau,von Buchwaldt-Wensin,von der Wisch-Binebeck,von Brockdorff,von Hatten,von Runge,von Halle-Drankenburg-Rinteln,von dem Bussche and so on and on...
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #80  
Old 06-01-2014, 08:21 PM
Calum's Avatar
Newbie
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Golden Bay, New Zealand
Posts: 5
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeatrixFan View Post
Philip - Well, his mother was Princess Alice - her mother was Russian and she was born in Russia - either that or her father was Russian and so was her mother - again, the 2/3 ratio was used. (I'm so bogged down in notes!) She was more Russian than German. Therefore, by maternal line, Philip is Russian. By Paternal Line he is Danish. By Jus Soli, he is Greek. But if his fathers nationality was determined by Jus Soli then he would be Greek!

I think Norwegianne, that you're right - I need to break each persons family tree down - I am going to go into more detail and it may take alot of time so I hope everyone will stick with the topic and join in!


Philip isn't Russian through his mother. His father's mother was Grand Duchess Olga Constantinova of Russia, a granddaughter of Nicholas I.
__________________

__________________
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
british royal family, heritage, history, nationality


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Windsor/Windsor-Mountbatten: Name of Royal House and Surname HRH Kimetha British Royals 116 11-15-2014 07:32 PM
The Princely and Ducal House of Rohan Marengo Royal Families of France 18 08-23-2014 02:02 PM
Frogmore House, Windsor CatherineJ British Royal Residences 43 01-26-2014 04:17 PM
List of royal residences in the United Kingdom and Commonwealth Elspeth British Royal Residences 0 11-04-2008 03:30 PM




Popular Tags
abdication belgium brussels carl philip charlene chris o'neill crown prince frederik crown princess mary crown princess mette-marit crown princess victoria current events fashion germany grand duchess maria teresa grand duke henri hohenzollern infanta leonor infanta sofia jordan king carl xvi gustav king constantine ii king felipe king felipe vi king harald king juan carlos king philippe king willem-alexander letizia luxembourg nobility official visit olympic games ottoman pieter van vollenhoven poland pregnancy president hollande prince albert prince albert ii prince carl philip prince constantijn prince daniel prince floris prince pieter-christiaan princess aimee princess anita princess ariane princess astrid princess beatrix princess catharina-amalia princess charlene princess mabel princess madeleine princess margriet princess mary queen anne-marie queen fabiola queen letizia queen mathilde queen maxima queen silvia royal royal fashion russia sofia hellqvist spain state visit sweden the hague wedding



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:37 PM.

Social Knowledge Networks

eXTReMe Tracker
Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2014
Jelsoft Enterprises

Royal News Delivered to your Email!

You can get the latest Royal News right in your inbox.

unsusbcribe at anytime with one click

Close [X]