Habsburg and HRE Titles

[RoyalistRiley]

During some research into Francis II of the Holy Roman Empire/Francis I of Austria, I found that in his and his successors official titles were Emperor of Austria and Archduke of Austria. How could he be both and is there a difference? Any information would be appreciated

 

[MAfan]

Until 1804, Austria was not an Empire (like usually is said), but only an Archduchy, and was linked to the Kingdoms of Bohemia and Hugary; therefore the members of the Family were Archduke(ss) of Austria, Royal Prince(ss) of Hungary and Bohemia; the Head of the Family was Apostolic King of Hungary, King of Bohemia, Archduke of Austria and he was always elected Holy Roman Emperor.
In 1804, Holy Roman Emperor Franz II elevated Austria from Archduchy to Empire; since that moment, the members of the Family are Archduke(ss) and Imperial Prince(ss) of Austria, Royal Prince(ss) of Hungary and Bohemia; this is the title they still have nowadays; the Head of the Family was now Emperor of Austria, Apostolic King of Hungary, King of Bohemia and elected Holy Roman Emperor; that's why HRE Franz II became Emperor Franz I of Austria.
In 1806 the Holy Roman Empire was dissolved.

When in 1804 HRE Franz II elevated Austria to the Imperial status, he also stated that the Head of the Imperial Family bears the title of Emperor even if he doesn't reign on any country.

 

[amedea]

Did the empire of Austria include Tyrol, Styria, Carinthia, Carniola? Before Napoleonic era these were separate duchies from Austria, weren't they?

 

[MAfan]

Yes, all these countries were included into the Austrian Empire; they lost their autonomies in 1804, when all the countries ruled by the Habsburgs were enclosed under a common government, the austrian one; only Hungary, in 1867, got its own government. Archduke Rudolph, the son of Emperor Franz Joseph, wanted to create a federal Empire, giving autonomies about internal politic to the single countries, but...History has gone for another way...

 

[RoyalistRiley]

Until 1804, Austria was not an Empire (like usually is said), but only an Archduchy, and was linked to the Kingdoms of Bohemia and Hugary; therefore the members of the Family were Archduke(ss) of Austria, Royal Prince(ss) of Hungary and Bohemia; the Head of the Family was Apostolic King of Hungary, King of Bohemia, Archduke of Austria and he was always elected Holy Roman Emperor.
In 1804, Holy Roman Emperor Franz II elevated Austria from Archduchy to Empire; since that moment, the members of the Family are Archduke(ss) and Imperial Prince(ss) of Austria, Royal Prince(ss) of Hungary and Bohemia; this is the title they still have nowadays; the Head of the Family was now Emperor of Austria, Apostolic King of Hungary, King of Bohemia and elected Holy Roman Emperor; that's why HRE Franz II became Emperor Franz I of Austria.
In 1806 the Holy Roman Empire was dissolved.

When in 1804 HRE Franz II elevated Austria to the Imperial status, he also stated that the Head of the Imperial Family bears the title of Emperor even if he doesn't reign on any country.

Everything I've read about the Holy Roman Empire at this time says that it was very weak from about the 18th century onwards. Would it have survived if Napoleon I didn't come in and re-organise it?

 

[MAfan]

Well, it wasn't properly reorganised, it was abolished. BTW, I don't know what would have happened if it wasn't abolished; surely it was more a symbolical power then a real political power. I don't know if it would have survived.

 

[Ozymandias]

In a way this thread Is the same I'm doing some research on
What I'm researching Is Austrian dukes between (1806-1918)

Emperors of Austria

Franz I, Archduke 1792-1835, also King of Germany and Emperor-elect (as Franz II) until 1806, King of Bohemia and Hungary, Emperor of Austria (as Franz I) since 1804
Ferdinand I 1835-1848
Franz Josef I 1848-1916
Karl I 1916-1918

How many Individuals/families where granted the status of Dukedom, by the Emperors of Austria Within the German speaking provenances of Austria

Example:
Duke of Este (Austria-Este), Archduke Robert Karl Ludwig (Karl I: 1916-1918)

 

[claypoint2]

Statistics

Princess Marie-Astrid ...


The Princess has been married to His Imperial and Royal Highness Charles Christian of Hapsburg-Lorraine, Archduke of Austria, since 6 February 1982.

Five children were born out of this marriage:

Princess Marie-Christine (b. 31 July 1983)
Prince Imre (b. 8 December 1985)
Prince Christophe (b. 2 February 1988)
Prince Alexander (b. 26 September 1990)
Princess Gabriella (b. 26 March 1994)

(So her children do have titles...)

Her full title: Princess Marie Astrid Charlotte Léopoldine Wilhelmine Ingeborg Antonia Elisabeth Anne Alberte

Her husband is also a Belgium noble-- his title: Prince of Habsburg-Lorraine and Serene Highness (19 Aug 1983).

Ah! If this information (from one of the very firsts posts in this thread) is correct, then Archduke Carl-Christian also has a title (Prince de Habsbourg-Lorraine) under Belgian law... which means that Marie-Christine did as well, even before her marriage. Could someone please confirm if this information is correct? Many thanks.-

 

[amedea]

The belgian title of prince de Habsburg-Lorraine was given only to AD Carl-Christian's brother Rudolf and his descendants (or even only his eldest son)
Belgian nobility - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Austria

 

[claypoint2]

Thank you, Amedea. What you say accords with my prior understanding -- namely, that Carl-Christian was not granted a Belgian title.

However, now I am perplexed on another point. The Wikipedia article that you cite states that "Archduke Rudolf of Austria and his male line descendants were incorporated into Belgian nobility as HSH Prince de Habsburg-Lorraine in 1978." Don't they mean Archduke Robert, father of Lorenz of Austria-Este (husband of Princess Astrid of Belgium)? And was it really as early as 1978? I had always thought that the Belgian princely title was bestowed on Robert's line because -- during the time before Crown Prince Philippe of Belgium married Mathilde -- the Belgian succession rested on Lorenz and Astrid's children, which made it expedient to grant them the title of Princes of Belgium. But, of course, Lorenz and Astrid didn't marry until the 1980's.

On the other hand, I don't know why King Baudoin would have bestowed the title of Prince of Belgium on Archduke Rudolf (a younger brother of Robert), who lived in the United States for some time and worked on Wall Street as a banker.... Also, I have never heard that any of Rudolf's children (for example, Archduke Simeon or Archduchess Catharina-Maria) were referred to as Prince or Princess of Belgium.

Or perhaps the Rudolf in question was the Crown Prince who died at Meyerling? He did have one descendant, Archduchess Elisabeth Marie, but she became known as "the Red Archduchess," and I can't imagine why King Baudoin would have granted her descendants the title of Princes of Belgium. They were born Princes and Princesses of Windisch-Graetz; however, one of them (Stephanie) did live in Belgium. Again, can someone please clarify? Perhaps I have been quite mistaken in my understanding.

 

[amedea]

The AD Rudolf we are talking about isn't the brother of AD Robert, but his nephew, the son of AD Carl Ludwig and AD Yolande, neè de Ligne.
The title concession was in 1978, 6 years before Astrid married AD Lorenz so there is no link between the 2 things.
I don't now why the title was given, maybe AD Rudolf asked for having it while the other ADs living in Belgium didn't ask. IMO it is quite an infortunate title since it complicate things: are you a noble or a royal? Are you a belgian subject or someone who cares for Austria, Hungary, Bohemia, Moravia...? I could understand it if Rudolf was excluded from the Imperial family, but, apparenty, he wasn't.

 

[claypoint2]

Again thank you, Amedea. Of course I was "missing" a Rudolf... Carl-Christian's own brother! My own fault for not having read your post carefully (was the comment about Rudolf being Carl-Christian's brother always there, or did you revise your post? My apologies if I missed it earlier). I agree that it's very unfortunate that some members of the same branch of the family would receive unequal treatment before Belgian law; and, yes, it must complicate the question of royal versus noble status from the standpoint of protocol. Ah, the seating arrangement for dinner parties got more complicated after 1978!

After looking into it a little more, I've now learned that Lorenz was created Prince of Belgium in 1995, when there was fear in some Belgian quarters that the Prince Philippe would never marry....

 

[Warren]

The AD Rudolf we are talking is...the son of AD Carl Ludwig and AD Yolande, neè de Ligne. The title concession was in 1978...

Was the title "Prince of Belgium" conferred on AD Rudolf alone or did it include his descendants? (He had one son in 1978; another 5 sons and 2 daughters were born later.)
As to why, maybe he was close to or a favourite of King Badouin.

 

[Lalla Meriem]

I thought the title given to Rudolf was Prince of Habsbourg (Serene Highness only) not Belgium and was only for him and his eldest son.

 

[claypoint2]

Lalla Meriem, I believe you are mostly right. AD Rudolf received the title of Prince of Habsbourg-Lorraine, with the treatment of HSH. It was AD Lorenz of Austria-Este who received the title of Prince of Belgium, and he is styled HI & RH Prince Lorenz of Belgium.

The only slight correction - according to the Wikipedia article on Belgian Nobility - is that AD Rudolf and all of his male-line descendants (not only his eldest son) received the title of Prince of Habsbourg-Lorraine. AD Rudolf and his wife, Marie Hélène de Villenfagne de Vogelsanck, have eight children, of which six are boys:

• Archduke Carl Christian (b. 1977)
• Archduchess Priscilla (b. 1979)
• Archduke Johannes (b. 1981)
• Archduke Thomas (b. 1983)
• Archduchess Marie-des-Neiges (b. 1986)
• Archduke Franz-Ludwig (b. 1988)
• Archduke Michael (b. 1990)
• Archduke Joseph (b. 1991)

 

[MAfan]

And in which way was Lorenz officially styled before being created Prince of Belgium?

 

[Lalla Meriem]

Lorenz was His Imperial and Royal Highness Archduke Lorenz of Austria-Este.

I wonder is it possible to locate the decree that created Rudolf Prince of Habsbourg-Lorraine?

 

[claypoint2]

Sorry to re-open the debate... I was trying to find the decree that Lalla Meriem requested when I came across the following webpage: rainier

It states that AD Carl-Christian (the subject of this thread) "was admitted to the Belgian nobility with the title of Prince of Habsbourg-Lorraine in 1983".... This is now the second source that says that AD Carl-Christian does have the same treatment under Belgian law as his brother Rudolf, although he received it 5 years later. Please note that the year coincides exactly with what is given by Jalmey in post #4 of this thread. Also, Jalmey's post gave a very specific date (19 Aug 1983). And it's easy to understand that C-C might have received this title after he married Marie-Astrid -- whose mother, Josephine-Charlotte, was born a Princess of Belgium.

I wish that we had access to more reliable sources than Wikipedia and this webpage of unknown origin, so that we could be more sure of the truth!

 

[Lalla Meriem]

I think that if Carl-Christian wanted a title his father-in-law certainly could have and would have obliged without needing to be incorporated into the Belgian nobility. I wonder why he received Belgian noble status when it would have been just as easy for him to obtain the same from Luxembourg?

Surley, L'Association de la Noblesse du Royaume de Belgique would be able to provide the specifics on the titles of the Habsbourgs who received the creation from King Baudouin. King Baudouin created 489 titles during his reign we should be able to find a record of these. I did find the contact address and telephone number of the ANRB if someone is interested in sending a letter or placing a call concerning the matter.

Certainly other than finding a record of the decree (which surely exists somewhere) the easiest way to acquire the facts would be to contact the families. Someone mentioned that they had written to Archduke Alexander and that he and replied. I suspect that the young Archduke learned that one should respond to correspondence from his parents.

I did find reference to the date of 19 August 1983 in connection to CC receiving the title which is hereditary to all his descendants who carry his surname, but it wasn't in any sort of official documentation.

 

[claypoint2]

Thanks, Lalla Meriem. Although of course it is purely speculation, I can imagine that AD Carl-Christian's personal connection with Belgium might have led him to request a title there instead of Luxembourg (where his relationship was acquired only by marriage). After all, Carl-Christian himself was born in Belgium at the Château de Beloeil, which is of course the seat of the Belgian princely family of Ligne -- Carl-Christian's mother was born Princess Yolande of Ligne. Also, Carl-Christian and Marie-Astrid were living in Brussels in 1983 when their first child Marie-Christine was born, so he may have requested the title at that point for the benefit of his descendants.

 

[Lalla Meriem]

Speaking of titles, I just noticed that in the information that is released by the Luxembourg government about the Grand Ducal Family that CC is listed as Archduke of Austria and Prince of Bar. I am unfamiliar with the Bar title and I don't believe it is a traditional part of the titles of an Archduke.

Can someone clarify this information for me?

 

[MAfan]

The head of the Family bear the title of Duke of Bar, one of the titles of the Dukes of Lorraine; this was the title used by Archduke Otto when in exile in Belgium, if I remember correctly he was registered at the university of Louvain as Otto, Duke of Bar; he also has been referred as Duke of bar in several other occasions.
But I don't know if the title is extended to the other members of the Imperial Family.

 

[Lalla Meriem]

The head of the Family bear the title of Duke of Bar, one of the titles of the Dukes of Lorraine; this was the title used by Archduke Otto when in exile in Belgium, if I remember correctly he was registered at the university of Louvain as Otto, Duke of Bar; he also has been referred as Duke of bar in several other occasions.
But I don't know if the title is extended to the other members of the Imperial Family.

The title you are referring to is Bale not Bar.

 

[amedea]

The title you are referring to is Bale not Bar.

No, MAfan is right, it is Bar, an ancient possession of the House of Lorraine. Bale, the french name for Basel, was an indipendent prince-bishopric until Napoleon and since 1815 is under Switzerland. So it would be very strange a title like that for the Habsburgs.

 

[Lalla Meriem]

No, MAfan is right, it is Bar, an ancient possession of the House of Lorraine. Bale, the french name for Basel, was an indipendent prince-bishopric until Napoleon and since 1815 is under Switzerland. So it would be very strange a title like that for the Habsburgs.

They used Bale not Bar in Belgium. At least, Otto and Zita did.

Ironically enough, I believe today is the anniversary of Zita's arrival in Belgium.

 

[MAfan]

I quote from the biography of Otto written by Flavia Foradini, "Otto d'Asburgo - L'ultimo atto di una dinastia":
"Presso l'Università di Louvain [...] Otto viene iscritto ad un corso di filosofia [...]. L'iscrizione è sotto il nome di Othon, Duc de Bar, uno dei titoli dei sovrani Asburgo"
It says that Otto attended a course of Phylosophy at the University of Louvain, and that he was registered under the name of Othon, Duc de Bar (= Otto, Duke of Bar), one of the titles of the Sovereign of Habsburg Family.
Later in the book the author adds that since the time of Franz I of Lorraine, husband of Maria Teresa, the Emperor bears the title of Duke of Lorraine and Bar.

 

[Lalla Meriem]

I appreciate the correction. I have never saw Otto or Zita with Bar attributed to them.

Back to the original question why would CC have Prince of Bar attributed to him? I've never saw this listed among the traditional titles of an "ordinary" archduke. Although, I admit my interest/obsession with Habsbourgs hasn't reach aficionado status yet.

 

[Stefan]

I appreciate the correction. I have never saw Otto or Zita with Bar attributed to them.

Back to the original question why would CC have Prince of Bar attributed to him? I've never saw this listed among the traditional titles of an "ordinary" archduke. Although, I admit my interest/obsession with Habsbourgs hasn't reach aficionado status yet.

At the funeral of Grand Duchess Joséphine Charlotte Otto and Rgina where also named Duke and Duchess of Bar on the official Guestlist. Also the Pierre Dillenburg who commented on TV called them Duke and Duchess of Bar.

 

[Lalla Meriem]

At the funeral of Grand Duchess Joséphine Charlotte Otto and Rgina where also named Duke and Duchess of Bar on the official Guestlist. Also the Pierre Dillenburg who commented on TV called them Duke and Duchess of Bar.

Perhaps since Carl Christian is listed as Prince of Bar in the docent about the Grand Ducal Family and Otto and Regina are Duke and Duchess of Bar these are Luxembourg titles or are the officially recognized titles in Luxembourg?

 

[MAfan]

In the very same book, it is written that when Archduchess Gabriela was born in Luxemburg in 1956, Otto asked and obtained for her to be registered as "Archduchess of Austria, Royal Princess of Hungary" in the register of births, while in Germany, when his other children were born, he asked but it was refused him.
So I wonder if in Luxembourg the titles of Archduke of Austria and Prince of Hungary are recognised or not...