Future and Popularity of the Spanish Monarchy


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Bigger? I do not believe it, this it is the opinion of an organization, about a law that exists not only in Spain but also in other countries. The press can criticize a judicial action for considering it excessive, but not for it they have right to claim that a country changes its laws. It is to exceed the limits and enough....

Really the attitude of the press never stops surprising, in all that something happens that affects them they have the power to do a " great topic ", but they are not capable of criticizing their own attitudes. In Spain there is a sector of the press that every day uses the lie, the calumny and the harassment, as method of work, and nevertheless many of their companions close the mouth before these attitudes of ...¨liberty of expression ¨? ... I do not believe it.

Actually I have the impression from which the press has been saved often. If I think about the information, which on the Royal Family, and specially the Princess and her environment, the press has spread in the last years, I can have a good quantity of news capable of being denounced by lies, calumnies, harassment, breach of laws of protection to the infancy, damage to the honor and to the intimacy...

They have damaged very much and have earned a lot of money without nobody was taking them before a judge, so better the things were kept silent and analyzing inside the limits of isolated events, which it is what they are.
 
crisiñaki said:
This is getting bigger and bigger:

Reporters sans frontières - Spain
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Nonsense!!Absolute nonsense,you guys do have an uncanny sense for sensation.Some Catalans burning pictures.So what?Nothing against Catalans tho,I've lived happily among them for quite some time,but some take their sense/nonsense on "nationalism" too far indeed,they only ridicule themselves and,I say it again,have soo totally forgotten where they've come from and who is at the very center of the freedom they now enjoy and hold,and mis-use/abuse.
And forget it,I will not take this back.Nunca.The Catalans behave more and more like a spoilt rotten selfish lot,nothing more.Que"ll rísée,este broma de Espana.
 
Lucien, they are only groups of radical, and obtain the response of those who are radical as them. And this way many Spanish see and reject this situation and enclosedly many Catalans.

Yesterday, there were speaking normal citizens, families that were present at the parade of the National Day, and saw this as a great absurdity.

Later, yesterday there was demonstrated that this polemic only serves in order that they acquire protagonism minorities that they represent to the most extreme ideologies. In the Basque Country yesterday there were problems between independence Basques and ultraright-wingers. And in Valencia there was a manifestation, with almost 1000 persons of ultraright, where there were burned photos of the President of the Basque Country and of the independence Catalan leader.

The above mentioned thing, there has met the worst of every house and they have created their own mess.
 
The situation is sirious enough to be reported on Euronews though. Yesterady, when coering th Independance Day for Spain, they were analizying the Monarchy and its future. It didn't look too good.

I doubt there is immediate danger to the Monarchy, and I doubt that things will change when Felipe succeeds his father.
But I do wonder whether the Spanish Monarchy has future in long-term prospective. Reiging over a country, large parts of which are craving for independance and don't recognize even the flag, is not going to be an easy job.

Of course, not being Spanish and not having lived in the country, I base my opinion on media reports and posts of the members here.
 
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There are things that are not new, there are things that go this way 30 years and even many more.

At this moment, great part of this noise they have its origin and purpose in political questions, because in a few months there are elections. As consequence of 11M and the elections that took place a few days later, a certain break took was produced between both principal political groups of the country, which always they had supported a certain consensus in principal questions.

This circumstance produced that the minority groups, many nationalists and independence, were acquiring more power. The electoral Spanish system favors to these minority groups, and for them often they turn into obliged associates in order that the big groups could govern. In case of the current government of Zapatero, this happened with a group independence and Catalan republican who is ERC. With more power, and certain control on the government, they have done what they have wanted. They have taken advantage of this gap that exists estre both big groups that represent the majority of the Spanish, to extract benefits. These groups look for the clash and the confrontation, because of it they extract a political benefit.

It is very doubtful that to these communities want the independence completes, and more in an Europe that joins. What I believe that many Spanish think, is that they tense the rope to obtain all the political possible power, but without managing to break it.

Spain goes 30 years of democracy living with the Basque problem where there is a terrorist group that murders, kidnaps, extracts... and the things have changed little.

But though it does not look like, even in the politics, the Spanish we are 35 more millions, to part of Basques and Catalans (though there are Basques and Catalans not nationalistic ), and of this like they do not protest, since they do not demand, since they do not tense the rope ... it seems that nobody remembers. And in these 35 millions there are persons of different ideology, but where the majority they prefer that there exists a general, good and equal consensus for all and that the problems that really are important to the citizens be resolved.
 
lucien said:
Nonsense!!Absolute nonsense,you guys do have an uncanny sense for sensation.Some Catalans burning pictures.So what?Nothing against Catalans tho,I've lived happily among them for quite some time,but some take their sense/nonsense on "nationalism" too far indeed,they only ridicule themselves and,I say it again,have soo totally forgotten where they've come from and who is at the very center of the freedom they now enjoy and hold,and mis-use/abuse.
And forget it,I will not take this back.Nunca.The Catalans behave more and more like a spoilt rotten selfish lot,nothing more.Que"ll rísée,este broma de Espana.
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Lucien, I think the article is talking about the press censorship that has been done in Spain since always, but now is even higher, because the RF is not as respected as it was 5,10 years ago and the press, cartoons are now making fun of them in ways they do not like;)

Going to jail for a cartoon? gotta be kidding me, the judges are almost as bad as radical muslims with the mahoma cartoon guy in Denmark:rolleyes:

A lot of protests are in Catalunya and Euskadi, but it's not only there and it's not only the radicals that burn things, there are also very pacific manifestations, it's a bit of everything;)
 
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lula said:
There are things that are not new, there are things that go this way 30 years and even many more.

At this moment, great part of this noise they have its origin and purpose in political questions, because in a few months there are elections. As consequence of 11M and the elections that took place a few days later, a certain break took was produced between both principal political groups of the country, which always they had supported a certain consensus in principal questions.

This circumstance produced that the minority groups, many nationalists and independence, were acquiring more power. The electoral Spanish system favors to these minority groups, and for them often they turn into obliged associates in order that the big groups could govern. In case of the current government of Zapatero, this happened with a group independence and Catalan republican who is ERC. With more power, and certain control on the government, they have done what they have wanted. They have taken advantage of this gap that exists estre both big groups that represent the majority of the Spanish, to extract benefits. These groups look for the clash and the confrontation, because of it they extract a political benefit.

It is very doubtful that to these communities want the independence completes, and more in an Europe that joins. What I believe that many Spanish think, is that they tense the rope to obtain all the political possible power, but without managing to break it.

Spain goes 30 years of democracy living with the Basque problem where there is a terrorist group that murders, kidnaps, extracts... and the things have changed little.

But though it does not look like, even in the politics, the Spanish we are 35 more millions, to part of Basques and Catalans (though there are Basques and Catalans not nationalistic ), and of this like they do not protest, since they do not demand, since they do not tense the rope ... it seems that nobody remembers. And in these 35 millions there are persons of different ideology, but where the majority they prefer that there exists a general, good and equal consensus for all and that the problems that really are important to the citizens be resolved.
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desculpe,but not "30 years and more",30 years and more saw Franco's rule,no-one,in or from Spain,could even utter a word in this direction without the whiplash.Spain has come a long way since,to a very high degree thanks to HM.But los stupidos seem to forget sooo easily,untill disaster strikes again one day,meanwhile they act like chicken loosing their head.
 
Please, Crisiñaki, the topic of " El Jueves " already bores. This magazine goes doing cartoons of the King and of the Royal Family 30 years, and until this year it had never happened at all. But this time they were too far, and someone decided to denounce them. And already ... the topic was ended, to continue using it to publicize and to attack to the Royal Family, that they are not who has taken the decision and who have done the laws ... it is absurd and unjust. Or probably the unique argument that some of they of them can use... In addition, nobody is going to go to the jail because of it, a fine yes, the jail, not.

It is a certain Crisiñaki, the Catalans began, and they have followed others, because since they have had advertising, now they are happy and feel winning ... sad enough and outrageous. Now they are radical groups of extreme right, which burn the independence leaders.

On the other hand, in these days, I still have not seen any great pacific manifestation in opposition to the Wreath... only some minority groups that join the current begun by others.

It is curious, which makes sad is that the opinion of radical values more, of one or another ideology, that that of thousands of persons who were celebrating yesterday in Madrid the National Day, with absolute tranquility. This it is always a curious contradiction, if in an act of any member of the Royal Family there are 300 applauding, and 10 protesting, the news always they are those who protest. It is evident that polemic and the noise sells better.
 
lucien said:
desculpe,but not "30 years and more",30 years and more saw Franco's rule,no-one,in or from Spain,could even utter a word in this direction without the whiplash.Spain has come a long way since,to a very high degree thanks to HM.But los stupidos seem to forget sooo easily,untill disaster strikes again one day,meanwhile they act like chicken loosing their head.
Click to expand...

Lucien, I believe that you have not understood me.

Independence Catalan and Basque movements already they existed in epoch of Franco, and in previous epochs. Evidently in epoch of Franco they did not have the rights and the freedom that they have now. Sometimes it seems that while they evolve the rest, they remain suspended in their own ideologies without seeing anything more.

One of the best examples is ETA, it was created still in epoch of Franco, and as soon as the democracy came there was a split in ETA. Them it was that they decided to continue an armed fight, but also a part that decided retired weapons and to choose for defend their ideas in a democratic form.
 
I remember reading an article about the burning and protests in Spain esp. in Catalan, they even said/yelled "The Catalans have no King" how come? Catalan is part of Spain. Why on earth would they want to exclude their region from Spain? They want independence...from whom? I don't think Juan Carlos is a dictator. He was even recognized as the reason why there is democracy in Spain. I think they should have thank him from liberating them under Franco's rule. If too much spending is they're problem, well almost all royal houses have that. I even read in Forbe's magazine that the Spanish King didn't even make it at the top 10 richest royals so I don't think he has that "super wealthy factor". He's considered rich because he's King and that's part of it. It's a package if you're a royal. I think they are not even glamorous like royals of England and Monaco. They are considered "least wealthy royals" -- the SRF. I can't see the Catalans' problem. :ermm: Are they being held as outsider in Spain to dislike the royals? I think not! I'm hoping that F&L will be given a chance to show how dedicated they are serving they're country.
 
I am a Brazilian and my country is a Republic. But we had two Emperors, who were very good. Our current and not so current republican leaders are corrupt, stupid, dishonorable and we have scandals that you couldn´t immagine. They go forfour years to rob and still we pay one of the highest taxes in the world.
For a while we had 20 years of Military Dictatorship, where cruel things were done on both sides, there was no freedom of press, not even the right to gather, where you could disappear never to return.
Would you believe, that since Democracy returned in 1980, we have had one president impeached, scandals galore, and many people who are starting to miss "the good old times of Military Discipline"?
So, I say, Long live Parliamentary Monarchy!!

Carminha
 
Catalonians Reject Anti-Monarchy Expressions: Angus Reid Global Monitor

Angus Reid Global Monitor : Polls & Research

Catalonians Reject Anti-Monarchy Expressions

October 14, 2007
Abstract: (Angus Reid Global Monitor) - The vast majority of people in Spain’s autonomous community of Catalonia decry the actions of people who burned images of the country’s King and Queen, according to a poll by GESOP published in El Periódico de Catalunya. 80.8 per cent of respondents disapprove of the incidents.

(Angus Reid Global Monitor) - The vast majority of people in Spain’s autonomous community of Catalonia decry the actions of people who burned images of the country’s King and Queen, according to a poll by GESOP published in El Periódico de Catalunya. 80.8 per cent of respondents disapprove of the incidents.
However, only 29.9 per cent of respondents think the people responsible for these actions should be punished, while 57.6 per cent think their personal views on the monarchy should be respected since Spain is considered a democratic country.
In late September and early October, photographs of King Juan Carlos I were burned at least three times by groups of protesters in Catalonia, and the Republican Left of Catalonia (ERC) party called for the monarch to be stripped of his role as commander in chief of Spain’s armed forces.
The ERC has long called for the abolition of the monarchy, claiming it is unnecessary in Spain at this day and age. An ERC spokesman described the actions of the protesters as "the opening of a debate on the Spanish political system that was handed down by the fascist dictatorship."
In November 1975, Juan Carlos I officially became Spain’s monarch following the death of dictator Francisco Franco. Juan Carlos oversaw the European nation’s transition into democratic rule.
In an unusual gesture, Juan Carlos I addressed the nation earlier this month and defended the constitutional monarchy, saying it had helped guarantee "the longest period of stability and prosperity that Spain has ever experienced under democratic rule."

Polling Data
A few days ago, in Girona and other areas of Catalonia, groups of people burned pictures of the King and Queen of Spain. Do you approve or disapprove of these incidents?
Approve
8.5%
Disapprove
80.8%
Indifferent
10.0%

Do you think the people responsible for these incidents should be punished for violating the law, or should they be respected for freely expressing their views in a democratic country?
They should be punished
29.9%
They should be respected
57.6%
Other answers
5.0%

Source: GESOP / El Periódico de Catalunya
Methodology: Interviews with 700 Spanish adults in Catalonia, conducted from Oct. 2 to Oct. 4, 2007. No margin of error was provided.
 
Interstitial - Noticia

A spanish rocker called the Kings and the Prince "parasites" and the police and army "forces of repression"
Now, he's going to have to pay a lot of money for it!:eek:
Freedom of speech my behind :bang:
So people cannot consider the monarchy a parasite institution? he didn't call them any other bad words or offended them in any other way
This is something you would expect from North Korea, not from a "democratic" country :bang:
 
Exactly, It starts to sound like Marocco. I think they are parasites too, especially the rest of the Royal family. The king and Queen are the only ones who do something similar to a job. Who do they think they are? They are just normal people like you and I. Why are they so high almighty and untouchable?? If they don't play any role in politics why are they so important? Unfortunately these boards are full of supporters. You can't even draw a caricature of them in a newspaper. Bravo Spain.
 
fanprincipesasturi said:
felipe VI or elena I????????????
La Monarquia
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Thanks you for the article, fanprincesasturi. Here its brief translation (some parts are omitted, but the general idea is intact).

It has been more than a year since the, then, heir to the Crown married journalist. For more then a year there was a breach of centuries ofl custom.
The prince and heir should have abdicated before the wedding for violating the "old laws, which prevent those who marry a 'non equal' people, that is, who practice a morgantical marriage.

Carlos III ordered the Pragmatical Sanction which, among many other things, forbade the Kings and Infantes marry people of lower status. Ferdinand VII modified some parts but left intact the paragraphs referring to the marriage topic.
Even the Constitution of 1876 (in force until 1923) states in Article 56: "[…] Neither the King nor the immediate successor can marry those, who are by Law excluded from the line of the succession to a Crown."

From Charles III, the Pragmatical sanction has undergone changes but none concerning Royals or Grandes of Spain, and therefore it remains in force, as is our current Civil Code, which dates back to 1,888.

The constitutional experts will want to see what the Constitution of 1978 says. It does not mention the issue of marriage, but it also doesn't say that the heirs to the Crown are descendatns of the current King. Article 57.1 states: "The Crown of Spain is hereditary in the successors of HM Don Juan Carlos de Borbon, legitimate heir of the historical dynasty […]. "
It says of "successors" not "descendants" and also referrs to "historic dynasty", and thus it must comply with the laws which affected the dinasty and which must be followed by the family, I insists, even today.

Were the Pragmatical sanctions implemented recently? Of course. Recent abdications involve the uncle of the current King, Don Juan, and sons of Alfonso XIII - Don Aldonso and Don Jaime. Both wer excluded from the line of the succession because of the implementation of the 'old laws'. Both practiced morgantic marriages.

I can see onlu 3 people, who can legitimately succeed Juan Carlos:

A) Louis Alfonso de Borbon, the Duke of Cadiz and Ajou SAR
Explanation: his grandfather was forced to resign and according to the constitution of 1978, no Spaniard may be discriminated because of their sex or religion, social condition.
B) The Infanta Doña Elena
Explanation: although Marichalar was not a member of nobility, he at least belonged to the Aristocracy.
C) Don Carlos of Borbon Two Sicilies.
Explanation: his succession can be possible, if the pragmatical sanctions allow marriages not only to Princes and Princesses, but also to nobles.

If the current constitution if changed and the Pragmatic sanctions are annuled, Infanta Elena could claim rights to the Throne, as she is the eldest child.
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donnaK said:
Interview of Carmen Enríquez

Entrevistas Digitales en ELPAÍS.com
Click to expand...

Thank you for the article, donnaK. Here is the brief translation of some of the questiosn and answers from it:

1) Is the monarchy in crisis?
I don't think so. It is true though that there have been a number of incidents recently, which brought the Royal Family to the front pages of the newspapers, and not in positive ways. But I think this will be over soon and the normality will be recovered.

2) What trip or visit by the Royal Family has been the most interesting? Do you have any anecdotes?
One of the most interesting was the coverage of the funeral of King Hussein of Jordan, which was attended by all mimebros of the Spanish Royal Family. It was an impressive concentration of Important People in Amman. As for anecdotes .... Many. You can find some of them in my book, "Following the Footsteps of King."

3) Why is it such an important issue whether the Inganta was dicorced or not? Why nobody remembers that Monarchies have always separated, divorced, reconciles...?
The issue has become so important because such news raise the curiosity of people. Also because such kind of news help selling papers (are good for the buisness of some of the Media). But the truth is. the divorce is an ordinary fact in our days and part of our lives. Who hasn't got a divorced neighbour?

4) Is the loss of temper demonstrated by Juan Carlos a sign he must start hinking of abdication?
The loss of temper of the King must be viewed in the contest that the Venezuelan president repeatedly tried to break (interrupt) the Ibero-American Summit ever since he came to Santiago. Also, the moderator, in this case President Bachelet, draw attention to Chanez before the King, by jumping outraged after one of his comments. The rest is to be deduced by individuals, who may or may not agree with the King's actions.

5) How do you view the separation of the Dukes of Lugo? Do you know the whole truth behind it?
The separation of a couple is always a painful and sad as it involves breaking a common link. And although there will be people, who will say they know everything, I don't suppose that will be true. What really happened, that made them put an end to their union, is known only by the couple.

6) Do you think that with the latest developments, the king is in a crisis situation? How the separation of his daughter and the burning of photos in Catalona have affected Juan Carlos?
Generally, the King is an ooptimistic person, as far as I know. But the latest developments can make anyone nervous. The separation of Infanta Elena has deeply saddened him, no doubt. As for the pictures, I think you will find him more annoyed with the way the media (media policy) presented the news, rather then the fact itself.

8) How was the Royal Family affected by the unpleasant and unjustified campaign against the Princess of Asturias by some segments of the Media?
Obviously, they don't like it very much. Especially because, as you said, the campaign is biased and unjustified. And I think those, who are responsible for the campaign are those sectors of the Spanish society, who hoped that the Prince would perhaps choose one of their daughters as the future Queen of Spain.
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It looks like to me an absurd enough topic. Defended only by those who think that to be a noble or to have money does the most valid persons. The current spanish constitutional Monarchy applies for the procedure of the Constitution of 1978, not for ancient procedure, so sense makes send to laws that already do not exist in Spain. Every historical moment has its laws, and the laws change, but the normal thing is that is applied from the moment in which they are approved not of retroactive form, something that would be an authentic chaos. In Spain we are ruled by the current laws, nor by Franco's laws, nor by those of the Republic, nor by the Laws of Alfonso XIII.

The logical thing is that Spain follows the line of all the European Monarchies that have been changing the laws into the same line.

The Constitution says that the Prince and the Infantas can marry whom they want while the King or the Parliament do not be opposed, and this it is the law of the Spanish Monarchy eslablished in 1978.

The Prince did not marry a member of the royalty, but it was done neither by the Infanta Elena (her husband is a son of aristocrats but not member of the royalty), nor Luis Alfonso de Borbón whose wife can be very rich but not to have anything of noble. So arguments of this person would be so valid for the Prince like for them.

On the reform of the Constitution, the reforms are not applied of retroactive form, not even the leaders think to do it, because it is the logical thing. Spain must follow the way of Belgium or Norway. In Sweden they did the change, the topic was not exempt from polemic, but at least the possible inheritors still were very young. To alter the persons' life that they take all their life with a marked way it would be very unjust. I do not believe that the Infantas with made lives want that these change, they had the freedom of doing their life and of taking their decisions. Nevertheless, the Prince had to limit his life to his inheritor's position, and ride 30 years being Prince of Asturias.
 
I agree with you Lula, it seems absurd to say someone is more 'worthy' to become a King/Queen, just because he's married to a representative of a nobility.
Felipe has spent whole his life preparing for the job of the King. And that makes him worthy enough.
 
Well, wouldn´t that depend on how succesfull the preparations were?
 
I have quick question.....if Prince Felipe was assinated tomorrow while the King was a alive and ill lets say the Spanish Succession hasnt changed who gets the throne after the King?
 
dharshana said:
I have quick question.....if Prince Felipe was assinated tomorrow while the King was a alive and ill lets say the Spanish Succession hasnt changed who gets the throne after the King?
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Infanta Leonor as she is second in line. Amd if the King would die before she becomes 18 there would be a Regent.
 
Just my personal opinion...

Although the old laws related to the rules of succession may be viewed as outdated, they have been aimed at protecting the bloodline purity, which is fundamental to aristocracy. However, the recent generation of Crown Princes paired with a few ones from the older generation has violated these rules. The respective countries have introduced certain changes to laws, thereby accommodating the new circumstances. Given the above, the Spanish monarchy will do its best in duly addressing the issue. This will definetely entail modification of the Pragmatical Sanction.
Yes, Crown Prince Felipe has been “training” to succeed his father. At the same time, I do not think that it will take strenuous efforts to train Infanta Elena, who, I believe, is capable of becoming a fine Queen.
 
Al_bina said:
Although the old laws related to the rules of succession may be viewed as outdated, they have been aimed at protecting the bloodline purity, which is fundamental to aristocracy. However, the recent generation of Crown Princes paired with a few ones from the older generation has violated these rules. The respective countries have introduced certain changes to laws, thereby accommodating the new circumstances. Given the above, the Spanish monarchy will do its best in duly addressing the issue. This will definetely entail modification of the Pragmatical Sanction.
Yes, Crown Prince Felipe has been “training” to succeed his father. At the same time, I do not think that it will take strenuous efforts to train Infanta Elena, who, I believe, is capable of becoming a fine Queen.
Click to expand...

The old law was created in the days when there were more than a handful of royalties around to marry. It's no longer the case today. "Royals" don't include nobles.

Plus, for anyone who favors Elena, please answer this question: How an enstranged consort with questionable character preferrable over a commoner consort who is in a loving marriage? Even Jamie was from an aristocracy background. Elena left him. Does it really post less problem for the future monarch to have an enstranged consort? How do you know the marital problem will not envolve into a Charles-Diana soap opera?

And no other potential heirs married royals either. So what's the difference? Felipe has the best preparation.
 
At what age can a future monach in Spain be before he/she is allowed to ascend to the throne? Is it 18? Many thanks
 
Dear highpriestess,
I believe that you have misinterpreted the meaning of my post.
Firstly, I have asserted in the first part of my post that Spain will likely introduce changes into the rules in question, thereby accommodating the new circumstances. Secondly, I have not declared my preferences in regard to a next King or Queen of Spain. Crown Prince Felipe with a commoner wife can be the next Royal couple. At the same time, Infanta Elena will make a fine Queen with all that it implies (training included), if the marriage of the Crown Princely couple is recognized as a violation of “the old laws, which prevent those who marry a ‘non equal’ people, that is, who practice a morganatic marriage” (see post by Avalon #407) due to some unforeseen circumstances. This may entail exclusion “from the line of the succession to a Crown” (see post by Avalon #407).
As for Infanta Elena's personal life , I doubt that the British situation will ever take place. Furthermore, it can not be clearly determined who is responsible for the decision to separate. As for having an estranged consort, it may safely be said that such things did happen in the history (e.g., Caroline of Brunswick-Wolfenbüttel and George IV).
I agree with you that the pool of prospective partners for princes and princess is very tight. That is why member of nobility is viewed as more suitable partners than commoners (e.g., Princess Diana, or Crown Princess Mathilde, or Don Jaime). The European Royalty should thank the British Royal family for prompting changes. The first marriage and acrimonious divorce of Prince of Wales have contributed to acceptance of commoners as spouses to Crown Princes. The second marriage of Prince of Wales may help Crown Princess Leticia to become Queen Leticia …
 
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