Future and Popularity of the Spanish Monarchy

[adelaide]

I think that I'm not the single one to regret that for the moment the Princess of Asturias don't have more own personal activity in the organisation of the princely works duties. But first, it's better to analyse the fact more in accordance with the Spain Royal House organisation than with these of the other ones.

In my mind the single comparaison has to be done is withe the work of the Queen Sofia, who has a lot of cultural and social duties than others item where she has to do speeches. The Queen Sofia is doing few speeches, in particular long ones. The two speeches mad by the Princess of Asturias were many more longer than most of those of the Queen. But it's not a very relevant observation up to know!

Do you know in French political history, the name of " Father JOSEPH" - I'm not sure but you can go to google or wikipedia- ? Whithout to say that Letizia can be the Father Joseph of Felipe, it's too extreme, we can have a global reflexion about this kind of organisation for a princely couple where the Crown prince by devolution is oblige to be the single official interlocutor and speaker! Some times the History can give the key to understand some actual situations!

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

I know what you are referring to adelaide, these are just my thoughts to put this into perspective.
I think that Letizia is an intelligent young woman who helps her husband behind the scenes with her abilities, but no need to overestimate her influence and she certainly is not the brain behind Felipe.
For me there is no deeper sense in Zarzuela's strategy apart from clutching on to an old fashioned attitude like what has worked for the past 30 years for Queen Sofia must also work for the next 30 years for the Princess of Asturias. Both women represent a totally different attitude and woman role model and cannot be forced into the same pattern by choosing this outdated be-quiet-and-walk-behind-your-husband-role for Letizia. Sofia's role includes a lot of personal sacrifice and a no-complaint attitude, not unusual for a woman of her generation but times and society, incl the perception of women, have changed, a fact that Zarzuela's strategists completely ignore, and for me this attitude is part of the problems the Spanish monarchy is facing these days.

 

[nouwrein]

I critizise her role, what else can I do? I am sure if she had the same freedom of expression as other CPs her role would be more active and I would be the first person to applaud because I think in theory she has more potential than some of her peers.

All of them have, Mathilde, Mette Marit, Mary ... I agree that in some cases the "seriousness" can be questioned but does it always have to be serious? For me it's more important to see a female CP act independently as it is supposed to be in this century.

As I said in my earlier post, Letizia is there to do the small talk and assist, that's exactly what she does at the Book Fair.

There is no double standard but there is no proof either. I am quoting here tlg00's post as this is exactly what I mean: People keep mentioning her CV, but what good is a CV full of things that you did four, five, six years ago when you aren't being given the freedom to use those skills independent of your husband? For all of the talk of what's done "behind the scenes," there comes a time when some evidence of that ability needs to be shown in public.

Maybe Felipe feels sorry for his wife that she's not allowed to make use of her abilities in public and wants to show his support by confirming that she actually helps him and I don't doubt that, but I don't know the impact of her help either. Besides, this is such a macho attitude to say Oh yes she helps so much etc and then leave it there. Felipe is as much controlled by Zarzuela as Letizia and sometimes I wonder how high their level of frustration must be. There are both from a different generation but have to follow these old fashioned role definitions because Zarzuela's guys refuse to accept that times and society have changed and some adaptation is unevitable.

I understand your point Duke and I agree that there is no double standard with regards to your assessment of the CPs. In fact, I enjoy reading your posts as I find it unbiased, not the monotonous praising or bashing. I have the impression that you are neutral towards Letizia- neither like her nor hate her. So please keep them coming.
But with regards to Letizia's current working habit, it is not quite fair to compare her to the other CPs of the other royal houses. Every royal house is different and caters to different types of population and culture. Other royal houses are much more stable or much loved by the population that any misconduct can hardly shake it, like for example the Charles/Diana divorce drama or that peeing picture of Frederick- we can just imagine the uproar if it was Felipe photographed peeing on board the Fortuna. For every speech they deliver, they are putting themselves at risk of criticism- offering themselves for a bit by bit analysis of the speech, just look at Maxima now, it could be much much worse if she were the Princess of Asturias- in Spain. That's why I understand why the Spanish royals very very rarely give interviews. For all we know, maybe just maybe Letizia is not feeling sorry for herself or doesn't feel frustrated as high as you wondered but rather she is feeling just content and thankful that she is not subjected to speech analysis often. Surely, the Zarzuela is handling their activities what they think is just right for the culture and situation in Spain.

 

[lula]

Duke, for my you forget an important shade. It seems that you raise the problem from the perspective of which the Queen and the Princess are women ... and you forget a fundamental detail, Jaime and Iñaki are men and occupy a secondary role and their official activity in solitary is zero.

If you move it to other countries Laurentien in Holland, Alexandra and now Marie in Denmark ... they have an agenda of acts, in Spain the husbands of the infantas, not.

In Spain, the " husbands of ... " and the " wifes of ... ", they are in the habit of being always in the point of view and to be criticized enough if they commit the mistake of wanting to be more than they are, a secondary personage.

The Queen Sofia takes an activity in solitarily, important, but of discreet form. In her case, many of her activities in solitary are linked to her Foundation, and to concrete enough projects. She is compromised in certain cultural and social projects, and it allows her to work with them of a more serious form and not to be only " a decorative figure ".

 

[Avalon]

Since the Question of Letizia's solo appearances seems to occupy more and more space in every thread, we have opened the Letizia's agenda thread, to discuss it.
Please, post comments and opinions about Princess Letizia's solo acts there.

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

Duke, for my you forget an important shade. It seems that you raise the problem from the perspective of which the Queen and the Princess are women ... and you forget a fundamental detail, Jaime and Iñaki are men and occupy a secondary role and their official activity in solitary is zero.

This is true lula, but I think we cannot compare Letizia with Jaime or Inaki, who even won't be members of the SRF anymore as soon as Felipe takes over as King. They have always been unimportant for the monarchy itself, in contrast to the Princess of Asturias, future Queen of Spain.

 

[lula]

This is true lula, but I think we cannot compare Letizia with Jaime or Inaki, who even won't be members of the SRF anymore as soon as Felipe takes over as King. They have always been unimportant for the monarchy itself, in contrast to the Princess of Asturias, future Queen of Spain.

Evidently they occupy a different place, but they demonstrate a reality, and it is that in the Spanish Royal Family the persons who have been coming for marriage occupy a secondary role.

The Queen Sofia has some acts in solitarily, but great quantity of acts continues sharing them with the King. Now she has more activities in solitarily in certain projects that those who had initially. Among other things because initiallywhat the Kings did, like the Princes do now is to cross Spain, to try to come to all the possible places.

 

[nouwrein]

This is true lula, but I think we cannot compare Letizia with Jaime or Inaki, who even won't be members of the SRF anymore as soon as Felipe takes over as King. They have always been unimportant for the monarchy itself, in contrast to the Princess of Asturias, future Queen of Spain.

I think Lula is comparing how different royal houses are when comparing Jaime and Iñaki to Laurentein and Alexandra/Marie, who are all spouses of the monarch's children.

It is just different in Spain and that's the way things are. And I don't think they will risk changing so much now.

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

I understand your point Duke and I agree that there is no double standard with regards to your assessment of the CPs. In fact, I enjoy reading your posts as I find it unbiased, not the monotonous praising or bashing. I have the impression that you are neutral towards Letizia- neither like her nor hate her. So please keep them coming.

But with regards to Letizia's current working habit, it is not quite fair to compare her to the other CPs of the other royal houses. Every royal house is different and caters to different types of population and culture. Other royal houses are much more stable or much loved by the population that any misconduct can hardly shake it, like for example the Charles/Diana divorce drama or that peeing picture of Frederick- we can just imagine the uproar if it was Felipe photographed peeing on board the Fortuna. For every speech they deliver, they are putting themselves at risk of criticism- offering themselves for a bit by bit analysis of the speech, just look at Maxima now, it could be much much worse if she were the Princess of Asturias- in Spain. That's why I understand why the Spanish royals very very rarely give interviews. For all we know, maybe just maybe Letizia is not feeling sorry for herself or doesn't feel frustrated as high as you wondered but rather she is feeling just content and thankful that she is not subjected to speech analysis often. Surely, the Zarzuela is handling their activities what they think is just right for the culture and situation in Spain.

I agree with you, we cannot lump all monarchies together as they have different histories, some are more, some are less settled and they have a different level of acceptance in public. Kings and heirs have to respond to these circumstances. I respect that Spain is Spain and understand that things are handled in a specific way but I don't think that the handling is still contemporary (eg in dealing with the press, Letizia's role etc) and it's inevitable for a monarchy to adapt to changes if it wants to survive.

 

[chuchu]

All of them have, Mathilde, Mette Marit, Mary ... I agree that in some cases the "seriousness" can be questioned but does it always have to be serious? For me it's more important to see a female CP act independently as it is supposed to be in this century.


As I said in my earlier post, Letizia is there to do the small talk and assist, that's exactly what she does at the Book Fair.



People keep mentioning her CV, but what good is a CV full of things that you did four, five, six years ago when you aren't being given the freedom to use those skills independent of your husband? For all of the talk of what's done "behind the scenes," there comes a time when some evidence of that ability needs to be shown in public.

./QUOTE]

I am sure everyone has heard of the phrase "the power behind the throne". Since Felipe and Letizia are not yet reigning, we have yet to see how much influence Letizia has.

 

[chuchu]

I think Lula is comparing how different royal houses are when comparing Jaime and Iñaki to Laurentein and Alexandra/Marie, who are all spouses of the monarch's children.

It is just different in Spain and that's the way things are. And I don't think they will risk changing so much now.

I am sure the "men in black suits" in the Spanish Royal Household know what they are doing. We, from other countries wish otherwise, but we do not see the whole picture.

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

Some more articles about the uproar of the last weeks / future of the Spanish monarchy:

King forced onto defensive as Spain turns hostile to crown - Times Online

Spanish royals feel a chill amid protests and criticism - International Herald Tribune

Bourbon takes a battering - Times Online

 

[lula]

I believe that a base problem in this news, and in everything this topic in general, is that the one who does not know the Spanish politics, cannot manage to understand totally this history.

There is a totally political fund, which has its purpose in March when the elections come. And that has its origin in a few convulsed elections, and in a few political groups that there represent to the majority of the Spanish who have lost the basic consensus, and that have given power to minority groups that always have looked for the confrontation as way to obtain their ends.

There are certain attitudes that are curious and some kind of hypocrites. Since to read in Times the opinion of Aznar, counselor of Murdoch, and which relations with the King it is known that not always were good. There are certain mistrusts to near what The Times publishes, for Aznar's relation with the owner of the newspaper and for the previous actions of the journalist Thomas Catan, who interviewed a killer terrorist who was "extracting" to the State with a hunger strike.

 

[crisiñaki]

The problem here isn't the catalans or the basques (in fact, with those acts of violence, they only manage to screw with the republic possibility), the problem in here is that Spain has a wide anti-monarchy streak everywhere in the country, and it's getting stronger by the minute

The King is very liked and respected, but a lot of us think that he's done his work and that there's no need for a monarchy in the future, when he's gone; I think we'd be better with a federal republic like the US

 

[donnaK]

The problem here isn't the catalans or the basques (in fact, with those acts of violence, they only manage to screw with the republic possibility), the problem in here is that Spain has a wide anti-monarchy streak everywhere in the country, and it's getting stronger by the minute

Not true. There is no serious anti-Monarchy movement in Spain except for the Catalan or the Basques nationalists, who are actually anti the Spanish state and Monarchy is the part.

 

[crisiñaki]

I'm not talking about a movement, I'm talking about people in general, a lot of spaniards are republican or don't really care whether there is a monarchy (even though a lot like the king), specially among people under 40

By streak I didn't mean a group, I meant a way of thinking and it isn't on Catalunya or Euskadi only, even though there's the strongest one

 

[donnaK]

I'm not talking about a movement, I'm talking about people in general, a lot of spaniards are republican or don't really care whether there is a monarchy (even though a lot like the king), specially among people under 40

By streak I didn't mean a group, I meant a way of thinking and it isn't on Catalunya or Euskadi only, even though there's the strongest one

But there is no WIDE anti-Monarchy streak everywhere as you claimed. For every 10 Republican demonstrators (a few places), there were more than 100 monarchy supporters .

 

[crisiñaki]

at least in public
since people in manifestations is usually taken to jail (see Jaume d'Urgell case), a lot of them chose not to, to avoid problems

 

[donnaK]

I believe that a base problem in this news, and in everything this topic in general, is that the one who does not know the Spanish politics, cannot manage to understand totally this history.

True, but not a big deal. The Spanish press has always been very critical towards Diana and the British Monarchy.

 

[donnaK]

at least in public
since people in manifestations is usually taken to jail (see Jaume d'Urgell case), a lot of them chose not to, to avoid problems

Most of people in manifestations had never been taken to jail. There is no need to use an extreme case to argue for the general, the same syndrom as the Times .

 

[crisiñaki]

I talk from a close experience, three of my cousins and a friend have been thrown to jail just for being in republican manifestations, pacific ones in Madrid, Valencia and Barcelona and they were just took by the police, no questions asked and such

If we had the right to express ourselves without fear, then it would be much better even for the monarchy itself

 

[lula]

Crisiñaki, anybody is arrested to pronounce in favor of the Republic, if does it in an ordered and civic way, of that form can be gone out and be defended any idea. There are politicians who defend it in the Parliament.
What it is not acceptable, and often it is crime, is when those ideas are defend of scandalous form and with violence. And unfortunately often there are manifestations that finish thus,indeed because if in those manifestations it does not pass something scandalous, they are not the news. It can have some case, but I doubt that one arrest to somebody in a pacific and organized manifestation.

You can be showed to favor or against you want it while you do not fail to fulfill laws. The past weekend in the Basque Country were manifestations of thousands of people in favor of independence, while they do not defend the terrorism nor they create public scandal, is no problem.


What it is not possible to be done is to defend your ideas failing to fulfill the law. I have looked for curiosity the history of the boy that you comment. A person can pronounce itself with a republican flag, but to put that flag in a public building is against the Spanish laws, because an unconstitutional flag cannot wave in a public building.

A country in which million people go out to condemn the terrorism or to protest against a war, is not indeed a country that is scared to say the things in the street. What it happens, it is that much people have understood and understands, that over a personal idea it is the good of all. And they can be republicans, but many republicans value the role that the Monarchy has played and plays in this country.

 

[crisiñaki]

What I believe is stupid is people getting jail for cartoons or for burning a picture (even if I don't agree or endorse these acts)

In USA, you can see pics, masks of Bush in every manifestation getting burned, burning flags and stuff like that and what happens: nothing, there's not such a big deal out of it

And let's not even talk about the cartoons, who are far worse than anything has done in Spain

About Jaume: why does it have to be against the law to change a flag? what's the point of forbidding that? what's the point of make a cartoonist go to jail for depicting someone? I know is the law, but that law is pointless, the judges should be dedicating to more important things than this

Seems like freedom of speech and objection of conscience is not that "free" in Spain

 

[lula]

Crisiñaki, are two different debates.

A thing, is that certain laws, do not please or that sometimes the public prosecutors or the judges exceed. In many countries laws exist that defend the Chief of the Head of the State or national symbols. Here you have information:
Tiempo

In the United States you can burn to Bush or the flag, but also they can condemn you to death. There is nor system no perfect justice. But that the laws please more or less it does not mean that the people can fail to fulfill them.

Independently of which they commit or not a crime against the King or the State, that burns any thing in the street would have to be arrest by acts of public disorder, because it is not normal that it is allowed to be burning things in the street.

I return to explain you the subject of the boy and the republican flag. The republican flag is a NON CONSTITUTIONAL flag, and therefore it is prohibited by law that that flag is placed in a PUBLIC building (that is what this boy did), just like it would be a crime to place a pro-Franco flag.

 

[crisiñaki]

No justice system is perfect, that's for sure, but I can assure you, the spanish judges have more important issues than prosecute some people who burn the Kings pics; if you talk about USA vs Spain, you have to remember the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Amendment_to_the_United_States_ConstitutionFirst Amendment, which grants the freedom of speech, freedom of press, and the right of petition, which is not completely complied in Spain (as should be in every democratic civilized country, monarchy or not)

Of course I know it isn't a non-constitutional flag, my point is that, it shouldn't be penalized, the boy should pay money or do community service, but not go to jail!

I don't agree with the inviolable status of the King nor do I agree with the fact that the Kings and Princes are so above everybody else that you're prosecuted just because you burn pics or cartoon a person; of course there should be a modicum of respect towards the institution, but it should be the same level of respect the Presidency of the Government has

I believe the judges and prosecutors are overzealous of the defending of the Crown and at the end of the day, it just helps to degrade the imagen of the Crown as a whole

 

[chuchu]

I talk from a close experience, three of my cousins and a friend have been thrown to jail just for being in republican manifestations, pacific ones in Madrid, Valencia and Barcelona and they were just took by the police, no questions asked and such

If we had the right to express ourselves without fear, then it would be much better even for the monarchy itself

This becomes a human rights issue - I am surprised that this is tolerated in an EU country. How so?

 

[lula]

Crisiñaki, to exert the freedom of expression, is necessary to begin to respect the freedom. The exercise of you freedom of expression, can´t attack the fundamental rights of other people. Anybody cannot demand that the freedom of expression is respected when does not respect the fundamental rights of others. It is quite terrible like certain groups, in order to appear as “victims” appeal to their freedom of expression, when they do not respect to anybody. Because such which they demand to express itself with freedom, they do not leave others are expressed with the same freedom.

They always are very pacific, and they never do nothing … but always finishes being problems. And most terrible, it is than usually they take advantage of that problems to conduct more radical battles later.
The police also will commit errors, but it is not a secret that to many of these groups they like to face the police thus so that these respond and to complain.

The subject of “El jueves” is a unique subject, in that justice took an excessive measurement. Justice also commits errors, by excess or defect.
There are many laws that can seem more or less unjust, but are the governments the ones in charge to change them.

In Spain like in any other democratic country, each one must right to express its ideas, whenever it does it within the limits of the democracy and the law. Some commentaries that Crisiñaki has made here seem to me an authentic excess that reflects little the reality of Spain.

A Spain in which in the last week there have been manifestations in the street: of Basque independents, Catalan republican independents, extreme right-wingers, in defense of the democratic institutions, of sentence to the terrorism …

 

[Marengo]

Well, even the Dutch news has picked up on the discussion, I am watching the news of the public channel now and they are saying that the protests are becoming more fierce, esp. by youngsters and in catalunia. Tomorrow they expect even more fierce protests.

 

[Mari_*]

I read this afternoon on yahoo Spain (es.yahoo.com) that 69% of spaniards support the monarchy while 22% want the republic.

 

[dazzling]

sorry if this has been posted already.

Free pass fades for Spanish royal family
Protests spark debate on role of the monarchy

By Victoria Burnett, International Herald Tribune | October 11, 2007

MADRID - For more than three decades, King Juan Carlos of Spain has enjoyed the unquestioning loyalty of his subjects and the discreet respect of the media. But the era of deference during which the royal family's jet-set lifestyle and personal affairs were free of public scrutiny could be drawing to a close - full article