Claims to the Portuguese Throne

[Regina]

Originally Posted by JSP

The Loulés naturally claim that D.Carlota Joaquina gave her approval to the wedding and forced Infanta D.Isabel Maria, who was acting as a Regent before the arrival of D.Miguel, to approve the wedding too.
I wonder if there is any written document.

I'll reply to the rest of the post tomorrow but I wanted to say that there is a written document of Carlota Joaquina's approval. I was searching and I found it on "Usurpador".

I am not 100% sure but I think that as Infanta married a non-royal man, she lost her rights to the Throne. Am I right?

[Regina]

Originally Posted by JSP

Illegal ???
Do you think that D.Duarte Nuno smuggled D.Maria Francisca in the Embassy through the back door ?
Of course it was not illegal, since Salazar approved the plan.
And these days, Salazar was the law
As you must know, Embassies are a state national territory.
D.Duarte Pio was born in Berne in Portuguese territory

JSP, I understand you admire D. Duarte and you accept him as your King, but you must see that there are no documents proving Duarte's birthplace. The only thing we have is Duarte Nuno's word, nothing else. How can you be so sure that his son was born at the Embassy? I know that Embassies are a state national territory but if you are banned from Portugal, your wife can't give birth to your children on Portuguese territory. You can't even enter on Portuguese territory.
And why would you use Portuguese earth under the bed if you're in Portuguese soil?

Salazar was the Law at the time. Ok, I agree. Then show me some document or speech of Salazar declaring "Duarte Pio was born in Portuguese territory". If Salazar wanted to make sure Duarte Nuno's child would be born in Portugal... he would allow them to come back and have the child here!

Originally Posted by Danny SR

Regina it was an illegal act under the monarchy, in my thinking, and might or may not be right, since the republic had thrown out the constitutional letter of 1826 and replaced it with a republican one, then D. Duarte's family wasnt the only ones not allowed but the whole royal family. Since technically that branch of the family had no royal rights then wouldnt they had be able to step foot on portuguese soil?

Maybe you're right, Danny. But the fact is that the Law of Banishment was only revogated in 1950.

Originally Posted by JSP

I suppose so.
He was supporting Nuno at the launch of "O Usurpador"

How surprising... or maybe not so surprising since the Câmara Pereira family members work as a clan...

Your support to Francisco van Uden is new to me.

If you read my posts you'll see I've always supported van Uden

When D. Duarte got married I thought Duarte was the real Head of the House because... well, everyone said so. But then a friend of mine (who would Love to live in a monarchy I must say...) told me that D. Duarte was Not the real Heir. I thought he was joking... I really didn't believe him. But then I started to study all this sucession story and the fact is that Duarte doesn't fulfil the requisits. I understand people like him (I have some members of my family who know D. Duarte personally and they all say he is a great person with sense of humor humor, generosity, and I don't doubt it) but IMO we must separate emotional attachment from the Law. I don't say all Duarte's supporters have an emotional attachment toward him but in Portugal sometimes it's difficult for people to seat, study and discover by themselves what the law (and only the law) says. We are an emotional people and IMO sometimes we loose with that.

We all know this is an inglorious discussion because Portugal won't have a Monarchy again, but it's always good to discuss who is our representant on international royal events, etc.

Having said that, if he wanted D.Duarte to appoint his son (and not him) as the heir, that means he does not consider himself in the race I would say

If he doesn't want his Title, then I hope his son will one day.

D.Miguel and his family did not loose their nationality.
They were deprived from it by a terrorist act.
Depriving someone from its nationality is the most abject conduct a government can take over one of his citizens .
Having been cohersed to sign the Évora-Monte convention, it was not surprising that D.Miguel had retracted from the infamous treaty he was forced to sign.
He always considered himself Portuguese and was recognized as such internationally.

It is an abject conduct but it happened. And at the time it was not considerated as an terrorist act as it would be now.
And yes JSP, D. Miguel and his family lost their portuguese nationality.

D. Duarte, Duke of Loulé, Francisco van Uden are all descendents of D. Miguel. The only one who has nothing to do with him is Poidimani

A law that was never respected neither by the reigning RF.
D.Miguel I is supposed to have entertained an interview with D.Pedro V at Mafra Palace, and D.Miguel II; Infanta D.Aldegundes and her husband visited Lisbon years later. They were recognized at a theater and for mere caution, they left the place.

Ok, but that doesn't change anything There are no D. Pedro's descendents to blame now So if it was a terrorist act or not doesn't matter much IMO because all these actual pretenders to the throne are D. Miguel's descendents.

[Keith]

Who is this D. Rosario who claims to be the XXII Duque de Braganca? Is he a fraud or where does he fit in?

[Regina]

Originally Posted by Keith

Who is this D. Rosario who claims to be the XXII Duque de Braganca? Is he a fraud or where does he fit in?

Read here Keith.

IMO Rosario Poidimani is a smart person, someone who has well formed ideas and has been a good help to make people understand that D. Duarte has no rights to the Throne.
But... sadly (for him), the Throne doesn't belong to him since he is an Italian and he is a stranger for 99% of the Portuguese. But I still respect his commitment to the Portuguese Royal Cause.

I've tried to explain all this confused story of the Portuguese royal sucession to a German friend of mine... It's fantastic how Germans love royalty. And after quite some time studing with him who has (or not) right to the Throne, he tells me "But none of these pretenders (D. Francisco van Uden, D. Duarte, Duke of Loule, Rosario Poidimani) have 100% right to the Throne!! And funnily enough... he is right.

[Keith]

Originally Posted by Regina

Read here Keith.

IMO Rosario Poidimani is a smart person, someone who has well formed ideas and has been a good help to make people understand that D. Duarte has no rights to the Throne.
But... sadly (for him), the Throne doesn't belong to him since he is an Italian and he is a stranger for 99% of the Portuguese. But I still respect his commitment to the Portuguese Royal Cause.

I've tried to explain all this confused story of the Portuguese royal sucession to a German friend of mine... It's fantastic how Germans love royalty. And after quite some time studing with him who has (or not) right to the Throne, he tells me "But none of these pretenders (D. Francisco van Uden, D. Duarte, Duke of Loule, Rosario Poidimani) have 100% right to the Throne!! And funnily enough... he is right.

Regina, thanks for the information. I also came across the following:

"The Portuguese State recognises that, according to the aforementioned rules of succession, the Royal House of Braganza and its Head, Dom Duarte Pio, Duke of Braganza are the legitimate successors of the Kings of Portugal."

Data supplied by Luis Guerreiro, Portuguese heraldist.
Arms of H.R.H. Dom Duarte, Duke of Braganza - The Armorial Register

What are your thoughts on this?

[Danny SR]

Regina that is oh so true, they all come short when it comes to their claims to the portuguese throne. But I must say Poidimani has no claim what so ever and neither did Maria Pia, because even if she was D. Carlos's daughter, which I highly doubt, he couldnt give her any rights because the law didnt alow her any rights and for him to have given any to her the courts would have had to approve it which they would have never done. But as I have said many times before I think the most quilfied is D. Duarte, I know you will dissagree with me...lol I must say I have read a bit more on D. Francisco van Uden but I still feel D. Duarte and his family is the hope for a future monarcy

[Regina]

Originally Posted by Danny SR

Regina that is oh so true, they all come short when it comes to their claims to the portuguese throne. But I must say Poidimani has no claim what so ever and neither did Maria Pia, because even if she was D. Carlos's daughter, which I highly doubt, he couldnt give her any rights because the law didnt alow her any rights and for him to have given any to her the courts would have had to approve it which they would have never done. But as I have said many times before I think the most quilfied is D. Duarte, I know you will dissagree with me...lol I must say I have read a bit more on D. Francisco van Uden but I still feel D. Duarte and his family is the hope for a future monarcy

Welcome back, Danny! (I hope the Portuguese in USA are rejoicing with our National Team in Europe cup )

Well, D. Carlos recognized Maria Pia as his daughter and Portugal had Kings who were born out of the wedlock, but the fact is that Poidimani doesn't even speaks Portuguese and he has no Portuguese blood.
Maria Pia had children so if she was the real Duchess of Braganza, the title would have to be given to one of her children, not to a stranger.

Yes, Danny, you still feel D. Duarte as the real pretender, but in these royal topics we can't just feel because feelings lead you to emotional decisions, IMO!
Anyway, I am glad to have a strong opponent so we can discuss about it here!

[Count]

Not only the Portuguese State recognises Dom Duarte as Head of the Royal House and legitimate successors of the Kings of Portugal, but also the International Nobility, have a look to the "Almanach de Gotha" and you will not found any Poidimani.
I had the possibility to meet both and honestly I tell you that Mr. Poidimani spent all his time to convince me of his "rights" to the throne of Portugal, on the contrary Dom Duarte and his wife are really nice and speak about avery possible topic...

[Menarue]

Isn´t Poidimani the adopted son of Maria Pia? Adopted as an adult. If there is any instance of any adopted person who is not related to the person he was adopted by having the right to that person´s title? If so please tell me as I am very interested. There is a case in the British royal family where children of a Marquess who were born before the parents were married will not inherit the title, but the younger brother who was born in wedlock of the very same parents is the heir. It may seem a little unfair but that is the way it is.

[Elsa M.]

Originally Posted by Menarue

There is a case in the British royal family where children of a Marquess who were born before the parents were married will not inherit the title, but the younger brother who was born in wedlock of the very same parents is the heir. It may seem a little unfair but that is the way it is.

That's kind the same with the Cadaval Duchy... The late Duke of Cadaval had 5 children: two girls from his first (civil) marriage (Rosalinda and Maria Graziela), a son out of the wedlock (Jaime) and two girls from his religious marriage (Diana and Alexandra). It was Diana (the 4th child, but the eldest from the Catholic marriage) who inherited the title.

[Count]

Yes, Maria Pia adopted Poidimani but, another strange thing, Poidimani has not the family name Bragança...why...it seems that the adoption was only an "heraldic adoption"...

In any case if a member of a royal family adopts a person, this person receives only the family name, but NOT the rights to the title or the throne...Only the Head of the House (Dom Duarte) by decree, can recognise a person as his successor.

[Regina]

Originally Posted by Keith

Regina, thanks for the information. I also came across the following:

"The Portuguese State recognises that, according to the aforementioned rules of succession, the Royal House of Braganza and its Head, Dom Duarte Pio, Duke of Braganza are the legitimate successors of the Kings of Portugal."

Data supplied by Luis Guerreiro, Portuguese heraldist.
Arms of H.R.H. Dom Duarte, Duke of Braganza - The Armorial Register

What are your thoughts on this?

Freitas do Amaral recognized D. Duarte but he didn't explained his decision. How could a Professor of Law takes such decision without a DEEP study of the monarchist laws?
IMO, they should have called people related to Monarchist laws, like lawyers, teachers, historians,... to study everything and then decide with impartiality.

You can read here a bit more about Freitas do Amaral's decision. (Click on D. Rosario processa MNE). I am not a Poidimani's supporter but this work has important topics to be thought about.


Count, you said that only the Head of the House can recognise a person as his sucessor. But can he choose whoever they want?

[Menarue]

Some years back D.Maria Pia visited Portugal and appeared in public giving what was more of a harangue than a speech claiming that she was the real head of the house of Bragança. If she was really the illigitimate daughter of Rei Dom Carlos she still wouldn´t be the head of the house of Bragança by reason of being a bastard. How on earth could that lady say that a friend of the family, good business man or not could be the King of Portugal.
Portugal is a Republic and there is no King of Portugal and there isn´t likely to be in any near or distant future. There is a pretender to the throne, D.Duarte Nuno and thank goodness he will remain pretender until D.Afonso follows him. Squabbling over this becomes ridiculous. There are, it was said. some 300,000 descendants of royalty in Portugal today and I believe that the majority accept D. Duarte Nuno as the head of the House of Braganza.
I know that my family does.

[Regina]

Originally Posted by Menarue

There are, it was said. some 300,000 descendants of royalty in Portugal today and I believe that the majority accept D. Duarte Nuno as the head of the House of Braganza.
I know that my family does.

Well, no one accepts D. Duarte Nuno as the Head of the House because Duarte Nuno is dead. You must be refering to his son, D. Duarte Pio.

But why do they accept D. Duarte? Because traditionally he is accepted as the head of the House?
I support D. Francisco van Uden only because he fulfills all the requisites, I don't have any particular interest for not supporting D. Duarte. I admit I am not a great fan of most of his ideas but my personal opinions don't matter. What matter is to know if he really is the right person to be called Duke of Braganza or not. I just don't understand how can a person be accepted as the Head of the House of Braganza if his parents were not even Portuguese!

[Menarue]

Originally Posted by Regina

Well, no one accepts D. Duarte Nuno as the Head of the House because Duarte Nuno is dead. You must be refering to his son, D. Duarte Pio.

But why do they accept D. Duarte? Because traditionally he is accepted as the head of the House?
I support D. Francisco van Uden only because he fulfills all the requisites, I don't have any particular interest for not supporting D. Duarte. I admit I am not a great fan of most of his ideas but my personal opinions don't matter. What matter is to know if he really is the right person to be called Duke of Braganza or not. I just don't understand how can a person be accepted as the Head of the House of Braganza if his parents were not even Portuguese!

Mea culpa, slip of the keyboard. About not being Portuguese, I still have problems with William of Orange when there was a Stuart alive.....

[JSP]

Originally Posted by Menarue

Some years back D.Maria Pia visited Portugal and appeared in public giving what was more of a harangue than a speech claiming that she was the real head of the house of Bragança. If she was really the illigitimate daughter of Rei Dom Carlos she still wouldn´t be the head of the house of Bragança by reason of being a bastard. How on earth could that lady say that a friend of the family, good business man or not could be the King of Portugal.
Portugal is a Republic and there is no King of Portugal and there isn´t likely to be in any near or distant future. There is a pretender to the throne, D.Duarte Nuno and thank goodness he will remain pretender until D.Afonso follows him. Squabbling over this becomes ridiculous. There are, it was said. some 300,000 descendants of royalty in Portugal today and I believe that the majority accept D. Duarte Nuno as the head of the House of Braganza.
I know that my family does.

Hilda Toledano aka Maria Pia de Bragança was a sort of our Anastasia.
A mentally disturbed woman who lived in a fantasyland.
But she was smart enough to crookery.
When she visited Portugal she booked a suite in Lisbon Sheraton Hotel under the name of Duchess of Bragança.
She stayed a couple of days and when she was checking out she refused to pay telling the manager to send the bill to Fundação da Casa de Bragança who possessed her wealth .
The bill was never paid

[Danny SR]

D. Duarte yes is not in compliance of the prerequisites to be a king of Portugal...lol this is true, in his family line there lies some things that would have kept him from becoming king during the monarcy. I am a stronge supporter of D. Duarte as you must already know Regina....hehehe but I am also the first to admit that there is a few flaus. But out of all these "pretenders" to the throne D. Duarte is the most qualified and also the most accepted not only to the portuguese but also within the other royal houses of europe. I must admit he doesnt sounds like a very smart man, but he has some very good ideas, ideas I think the government should sometimes listen to.

[paul1981]

I'm new here but I thought I'd weigh in with my opinion.

Portugal had 3 constitutions as a monarchy:

1. The one in 1822 it was in effect until 1826.

2. The charter drafted by Pedro IV in 1826 was in effect from 1826-1828, 1834-1838 & 1842-1910. This is the principal constitution of the monarchy.

3. The constitution of 1838 which lasted until 1842.

From what I've gathered the three state that a king must be Portuguese, must be acclaimed by parliament and must be of legitimate birth and descent. The constitution of 1838 bans Miguel I and his descendants, but it was only in effect for four years.

Being that Portugal is not a monarchy it is difficult to say which one has the most weight, but I tend to go with the Charter of 1826. There was a law that banned Miguel and his descendants from Portugal in 1834, but it was not enshrined in the charter it is revocable. In my opinion that automatically gives Dom Duarte more points than some random Italian man.

Assuming that Portugal were to ever restore a monarchy I would assume that the current Republican parliament would name the new king and a new constitution would be drafted. As all three constitutions do state the legitimate government lies in the hands of the people and their representatives. So if a new constitution were drafted, all previous constitutions would be null and void.

Finally, one thing I've never understood are their any Portuguese legitimists claiming that Pedro IV's abdication was illegitimate and that the throne really belongs to Pedro Carlos of Orleans-Braganca? After all he is the senior male descendant of Pedro IV.

[Menarue]

I suppose my husband´s family are a bit biased. Perhaps the main reason is that they supported D.Miguel way back then.
In fact his great (4 times) grandfather died here for supporting him.

(Both sides at different times had family who died here but my husband´s family took it a bit personally).

[Regina]

But out of all these "pretenders" to the throne D. Duarte is the most qualified and also the most accepted not only to the portuguese but also within the other royal houses of europe.

Well, to be honest with you Danny, I don't think other royal houses of Europe spend much of their time thinking about if D. Duarte is or not the right head of the House of Braganza. D. Duarte says he has a good relationship with other royal houses. I dont have reasons to doubt it, but I dont believe he has a CLOSE relationship with any royal house at the moment. Neither he or his wife were invited to be godparents at any recent Christening.

I must admit he doesnt sounds like a very smart man, but he has some very good ideas, ideas I think the government should sometimes listen to.

I agree he has good ideas sometimes. I like to hear him when he talks about Europe identity and environment. I think he cares a lot about these 2 topics and he always says intereting thing about them (IMO).

Originally Posted by paul1981

In my opinion that automatically gives Dom Duarte more points than some random Italian man.

Poidimani would never be accepted. He would always be known as the adopted son of the murdered King D. Carlos' illegitimate daughter...


Paul, I didn't understand what you said here:

The constitution of 1838 bans Miguel I and his descendants, but it was only in effect for four years.

What was only in effect for four years? The Law of Banishement (Lei do Banimento) happened in 1834, and this law was only revoked in 1950 (after D. Duarte's birth).

Originally Posted by Menarue

I suppose my husband´s family are a bit biased. Perhaps the main reason is that they supported D.Miguel way back then.
In fact his great (4 times) grandfather died here for supporting him.

I know that with the defeat of the Miguelistas, the families that supported D. Miguel got impriosioned and some of them lost their fortunes. It's understandable that some portuguese families still feel this part of the History as a something painful, but do not forget that D. Duarte, on his mother's side, is also a descendent of D. Pedro while D. Francisco van Uden is a descendent of D. Miguel only.