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  #81  
Old 02-12-2010, 11:48 PM
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Being royal accounts for much of the "old school" attitude exhibited by Elena and Frederika towards others but that sword cuts both ways. Some of the more "noble" acting royals came from lesser pedigrees and were as beloved by their countrymen as those with bluer blood. Although I admire royalty, they are no better than me and I greatly admire those royals who treated all people with respect, no matter their origin.
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  #82  
Old 02-12-2010, 11:55 PM
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Well, not quite. The Gotha has rigid rules, but the principle of 'equal marriage' or Ebenbürtigkeit among the ruling (and former ruling, ie Mediatised) Houses was adhered to.
I am not by any means that well versed on the matter. However, I understand that some of the houses you quote, albeit neither major nor important were nonetheless mediatized. I believe, and please correct me here, that these minor houses, sometimes not even ducal but just comital, were rulers of sorts who, in turn, were under the rule of some major area sovereign. At some point, the Gotha treated these minor but mediatized houses, particularly if they were Germanic, as being of greater significance and importance, than even princely houses that were not ruling ones.
For example, prince Bernhard was coming from a minor house, but a mediatized one and this was the reason that his standing was deemed acceptable for the groom of the future queen of the Netherlands.
Anyway, it would be very interesting to learn from you how many of the minor houses you quote above were mediatized, which, by Gotha standards, meant that their members were considered to be of equal or almost equal standing to that of members of sovereign states and could thus acceptable as their consorts.
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  #83  
Old 02-13-2010, 10:14 PM
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Prior to the Napoleonic Wars the Holy Roman Empire consisted of hundreds of independent states with the ruling Electors, Dukes, Landgraves, Palatines, Princes, Counts etc holding allegiance directly to the Emperor. With the Confederation of the Rhine (1806) and Congress of Vienna (1815) the number of sovereign states and sovereign rulers was vastly reduced. What we know as Germany ended up with less than 30 ruling Houses. The "losers" were subsumed into larger states (eg the formerly sovereign Principality of Fürstenberg was incorporated into the Kingdom of Württemberg). To compensate for the loss of sovereignity the Princely House of Fürstenberg (to use one example) was made 'equal' to the remaining ruling families in regard to certain privileges including marriage, with the Prince owing allegiance to the Emperor through the King of Württemberg. Thus the term 'mediatised' from media or middle.

Not all families thus mediatised had territores they formerly ruled. The mediatised Thurn und Taxis, for example, were never a Ruling Family, but nonetheless were rich, powerful and influential enough to ensure they weren't left out.

None of the Houses I mentioned in my post were Mediatised. The Battenbergs were a morganatic branch of the Grand Ducal Hesse-Darmstadts; Queen Mary's family, the Tecks, were a morganatic branch of the Royal House of Württemberg and Albrecht Duke of Bavaria married non-mediatised countesses. The rest were reigning up until at least 1918 except for Hesse-Cassel which was annexed by Prussia in 1866 and S-H-S-A which was never reigning as such.

The Lippe-Biesterfeld family achieved sovereign status on the extinction of the Lippe-Detmold line in 1905. Members of the family, formerly a cadet branch as Counts and Countesses of Lippe-Biesterfeld, then assumed the title of Princes of Lippe with the qualification of Serene Highness. An uncle of Prince Bernhard [of the Netherlands] became the last sovereign Prince of Lippe as Leopold IV and reigned from 1905 to 12 November 1918.

Prince Bernhard's father had married a Baron's daughter in 1909 when she was created a Countess. In 1916 Bernhard and his brother, up until then considered somewhat 'lesser' due to their mother, were made Princes of Lippe-Biesterfeld with the qualification of Serene Highness.

Here's a Map of the Holy Roman Empire in 1789. Click on the map to show the number of small and patchwork states (some tiny territories haven't been included).

The map below is a cropped part of a much larger image showing some of the states and micro-states which made up the HRE following the Treaty of Westphalia in 1648.
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  #84  
Old 02-14-2010, 12:30 PM
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Magnificent account! Thank you
The conclusion, therefore, is that none of them, British and Continental European royalty alike were/are, at least de facto (and often de jure), as royal as we were told or as we used to think. Additionally, one sees the corruption involved and the relaxed, varied and "ad hoc" criteria employed by Gotha at different times, for different peope or at the same time for different people!!
And this, I guess, may explain the infamous end of the Almanac of Gotha and the Gotha altogether.
Please give us further comments on the matter.
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  #85  
Old 02-14-2010, 12:40 PM
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Warren,

Thanks for the explanation. Those maps are very detailed.
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  #86  
Old 02-14-2010, 03:34 PM
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Originally Posted by CarolinaLandgrave View Post
What wonderful pictures of Princess Nicholas!
She passed her stunning dark looks on to her daughters, for sure!!
Are there any of Princess Nicholas and her mother, Grand Duchess Marie Pavlovna??
Actually, it goes to beyond beauty! Here we are talking sheer elegance, absolute chic. Thence, the "infamous" snobbery of all three of them
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  #87  
Old 02-15-2010, 12:17 AM
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A young Elena and her mother are both in the picture taken at Nicholas II's coronation in 1896. In the big group photo, they are standing in the back, fourth and fifth from the left. In the smaller group, they are the two figures standing.
http://www.theroyalforums.com/forums...tml#post777295
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  #88  
Old 02-15-2010, 06:40 PM
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Elena with her mother and her family
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  #89  
Old 02-15-2010, 07:06 PM
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Wow, wonderful photographs. Just look at those wonderful robes, jewelery and tiaras. Such pomp and splendor the likes of which the world will probably never see again, even in the United Kingdom.
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  #90  
Old 02-15-2010, 07:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Vasillisos Markos View Post
Wow, wonderful photographs. Just look at those wonderful robes, jewelery and tiaras. Such pomp and splendor the likes of which the world will probably never see again, even in the United Kingdom.
Well some hungry Russians also noticed all these jewels and splendor and i do think this made them react a rather unexpected way. After that, I dont think that any royal family deared or will dear repeat this splendor. So are right , these days are gone.
By the way , all that glamour was the reason that Nicholas tried to provide to his wife a matching environment here in Greece because he falt guilty he had taken away Elena from all of that. Their Palace, although small was very modern compared to all the other royal residences. It even had luxuries such as " central heating, hot and cold water, and several bathrooms each fitted with heated towel-rails" ( even royals didn't have hot water then at Greece ) they threw many parties, they travelled many times in Russia and the dresses OEM wore were much most beautifull and expensive with all these embroideries and laces they had that those of their cousins who lived also in greece ( Sophia used more plain and practical dresses for her girls, the same style she used to wear when in Germany and Alice couldn't afford all this cost for four girls).
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  #91  
Old 02-16-2010, 02:29 PM
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Photos of Elana as a child
1) I don't know why she is dressed like that it seems an ... odd outfit for a Grand Duchess. Perhaps a costume ball
2) With her brother Andrei.
3) A portrait of the 13 years old Grand Duchess. Please tell me that this is some kind of faux headpiece because I really can't stand the idea that a girl who was not even in her teens yet was wearing that tiara
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  #92  
Old 02-16-2010, 03:12 PM
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That is a bit much in the tiara department.... for a girl of 13 - even for Marie Pavlovna's only daughter!
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  #93  
Old 02-16-2010, 03:26 PM
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These photos were taken after Nicholas ' death I think . The second it's a Christmas card showing Elena in her villa in Psychico, where she lived from 1938 until her death ( in 1923 she and Nicholas decided to sell their palace). She send it to various relatives including her daughters because at that time Greece was at war with Italy and she couldn't leave the country easily to visit them. It's awfull how WWII separated for most of her relatives ( blood relatives as well as in laws). She later confessed that living with Alice was a great deal of comfort at that time.
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  #94  
Old 02-16-2010, 03:40 PM
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I am a little bit confused with Maria Pavlovna the elder and the younger ,
I think the elder is Elena's mother and the younger Prince Lennart of Sweden's mother?
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Old 02-16-2010, 03:47 PM
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I am a little bit confused with Maria Pavlovna the elder and the younger ,
I think the elder is Elena's mother and the younger Prince Lennart of Sweden's mother?
Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna of Russia (16 February 1786 – 23 June 1859) was the third daughter of Paul I of Russia and Sophie Dorothea of Württemberg.

mother of

Elena Pavlovna (1784–1803) m. Friedrich Ludwig, Hereditary Grand Duke of Mecklenburg-Schwerin (1778–1819), and had two children.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna of Russia, known as "Maria Pavlovna the Younger" (St. Petersburg, 18 April 1890 - 13 December 1958) was the daughter of Grand Duke Paul Alexandrovich and Alexandra Georgievna of Greece.

mother of

Gustaf Lennart Nicolaus Paul Bernadotte, Count of Wisborg (8 May 1909 – 21 December 2004), was Prince of Sweden and Duke of Småland from 1909 to 1932.
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  #96  
Old 02-16-2010, 05:57 PM
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That is a bit much in the tiara department.... for a girl of 13 - even for Marie Pavlovna's only daughter!
That's nothing compared to Grand Duchess Alexandra Pavlova, eldest daughter of Paul I. This portrait, featured on the cover of Prince Michael of Greece's Jewels of the Tsars, painted c. 1790 shows a 7-8 year old Alexandra "encumbered with a pearl necklace, opulent earrings and an imposing diamond encrusted diadem."

Amazon.com: Jewels of the Tsars: The Romanovs and Imperial Russia (9780865651715): Prince Michael of Greece
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  #97  
Old 02-16-2010, 09:03 PM
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That's nothing compared to Grand Duchess Alexandra Pavlova, eldest daughter of Paul I. This portrait, featured on the cover of Prince Michael of Greece's Jewels of the Tsars, painted c. 1790 shows a 7-8 year old Alexandra "encumbered with a pearl necklace, opulent earrings and an imposing diamond encrusted diadem."

Amazon.com: Jewels of the Tsars: The Romanovs and Imperial Russia (9780865651715): Prince Michael of Greece
Personally, I find this picture slightly horrifying . To me, it appears to be a nowaday's equivalent of a 7 or 8 year old walking around in stilettos. Well, after that , I wouldn't be surprised if I learned that Romanovs used to offer as gifts diamond rivieres to children's birthday parties ....
By the way , how comes Elena wears the sash of an order in the picture I posted above? Wasn't she a little young then to have recieve any order?
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  #98  
Old 02-16-2010, 09:50 PM
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Originally Posted by EmpressRouge View Post
That's nothing compared to Grand Duchess Alexandra Pavlova, eldest daughter of Paul I. This portrait, featured on the cover of Prince Michael of Greece's Jewels of the Tsars, painted c. 1790 shows a 7-8 year old Alexandra "encumbered with a pearl necklace, opulent earrings and an imposing diamond encrusted diadem."

Amazon.com: Jewels of the Tsars: The Romanovs and Imperial Russia (9780865651715): Prince Michael of Greece
That's horrible! That poor young girl.
Reminds of that show on one of those channels, I cant tell you which one off the top of my head.. but its where these horrible parents dress up their little girls in makeup, and heels, and dresses for beauty pageants!
Just awful!!
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Old 02-16-2010, 11:56 PM
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But surely these little girls were not wearing jewels all the time! I'm sure they were adorned merely for portraits and official photographs but were dressed in age appropriate clothes the rest of the time. Even the adults did not go about wearing their royal finery all the time. There were plenty of photographs showing the daughters of Nicholas and Alexandra of Russia wearing their tiaras and royal sashes at court balls when they were young girls.
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Old 02-17-2010, 08:42 AM
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Thanks a lot Lumitqueen. May I ask
1. Maria Pavlovna the older is Empress Carherine II 's grand-child?
2. Which Pavlovna married the Crown Prince of the Nederlands Anna or Maria?
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