Which Prince is Which?

[Bones]

It is hard to find in-depth information (in English at least) on the past princes of Monaco. I've been trying to dig up info on the Princes of the Revolutionary-Napoleonic period but I keep getting conflicting information; like one source says Prince Honore IV did x,y,z and then another source says Prince Honore (later Honore V) did x,y,z -thus leaving me with no clue as to who actually did what. Any suggestions? I would be grateful for on-line sources or any books I could order or something. Any information anyone happens to have on the top of their head would be appreciated too.

[Nathalie Cox]

Hi, I've been searching, but I wasn't very succesful at it. I've only found this:
GRIMALDI.ORG - House of Grimaldi - Prince of Monaco - History and Genealogy

and the articles on wikipedia wich I'm quite sure you have read and might not be too accurate:
List of rulers of Monaco - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Template:Timeline rulers of Monaco - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I don't know if you need the timeline, but anyway

[Bones]

Thanks for taking the time Nathalie, I do appreciate it. Unfortunately I came across those a while back. The House of Grimaldi site does not really go into any detail at all about the revolutionary period and the wikipedia articles give very little information other than who reigned when. Getting Honore III, IV and V straight is still proving difficult. No sooner do I find one scrap of information saying one did this, was equerry to Josephine, fought with Napoleon here and there and then I'll find another that says no, it wasn't that prince it was his son. Makes it hard to know what to believe. But again, I do appreciate the effort very much

[sandsla]

Originally Posted by Bones

Thanks for taking the time Nathalie, I do appreciate it. Unfortunately I came across those a while back. The House of Grimaldi site does not really go into any detail at all about the revolutionary period and the wikipedia articles give very little information other than who reigned when. Getting Honore III, IV and V straight is still proving difficult. No sooner do I find one scrap of information saying one did this, was equerry to Josephine, fought with Napoleon here and there and then I'll find another that says no, it wasn't that prince it was his son. Makes it hard to know what to believe. But again, I do appreciate the effort very much

Bones, what information specifically are you looking for? That's a pretty large period of time to cover.

Also it was Joseph the second son of Honore III that became chamberlain to the Empress Josephine, and he was also known at the Imperial court as Monsieur de Monaco--Honore IV the Duke of Valentinois was too ill to attend events at that time I think? Also Joseph refused the honor to leave Josephine when Napoleon wanted to attach him to the new Empress, his new wife Louise. Joseph stayed devoted to Josephine until her death.

[Bones]

I can certainly give some specifics, though, as you say, it is an eventful time period which is why I asked for source material, links or books and the like. But, I can certainly give plenty of specific questions. First, what is your source for the information about Prince Joseph? (see, one source I found attributed that to Honore V!) Was it the wife of Honore III or Honore IV who went to the guillotine? Or is that info wrong? Was it then Honore V who was a general for Napoleon and fought in Spain etc? What specific policies of his earned him his autocratic reputation? Was Honore III in Paris or Monaco when the revolution broke out? I can certainly pose more but, as I said, it might not be the best use of time.

Thanks for taking the time though, I really appreciate it, this has been making me nuts . I would be very grateful for any solid bits of info.

[sandsla]

Originally Posted by Bones

I can certainly give some specifics, though, as you say, it is an eventful time period which is why I asked for source material, links or books and the like. But, I can certainly give plenty of specific questions. First, what is your source for the information about Prince Joseph? (see, one source I found attributed that to Honore V!) Was it the wife of Honore III or Honore IV who went to the guillotine? Or is that info wrong? Was it then Honore V who was a general for Napoleon and fought in Spain etc? What specific policies of his earned him his autocratic reputation? Was Honore III in Paris or Monaco when the revolution broke out? I can certainly pose more but, as I said, it might not be the best use of time.

Thanks for taking the time though, I really appreciate it, this has been making me nuts . I would be very grateful for any solid bits of info.

My source material is from Adophe Smith's Monaco and Monte Carlo published in 1912. I actually have a copy of the book, but I think that copy had never been read before, half of the pages were never cut, which has made it a little more difficult for me to read .

To answer a few of your questions it was Joseph's wife Francoise-Therese de Choiseul-Stainville that went to the guillotine. They both had escaped earlier but they had left their daughters in Paris with someone--she missed them and went back to France and they arrested her as a "suspect" and condemned her to death for being "An enemy of the people." After she was condemned she said she was expecting to give birth to a child so her execution would be postponed--she then asked to see Fouquet-Tinville, the Attorney-General of the Revolutionary Tribunal--pending his reply she cut off all her hair with a piece of broken glass. She wrote Fouquet another letter saying she had just wanted the extra day to have a keepsake for her children, instead of giving her hair to the the executioner. She was 26.

"Honore III had first consented to allow Roccabrunna, Mentone, and Monaco to elect representative councils. But of more personal concern to the prince was the abolition by the French National Constituent Assembly of all the fuedal rights and privileges enjoyed by the aristocracy...." Bones, there is a lot more to this, but he went back to Paris and was arrested there along with his son Honore IV (who had never left Paris), and all the other family members in France. Honore III had a lot going for him (I left out a lot of details) but they arrested him anyway and because Joseph was an "emigrant" (he didn't come back with his wife) they wouldn't release Honore III like they did the others (after Thermidor). Anyway after they finally released him he only lasted about six months.

Bones I just found the text to the book online so I'll stop here and let you read for yourself-I think most of your questions might be answered. Of course you can make up your own mind for if you think it's a solid source. You can probably even find a copy of the original book floating around somewhere. Some of the text has typos from the translation but if you can't understand something I can look it up for you. So just scroll down to around the "Spanish War of Succession" and "Revolution at Monaco" and you will probably find what you are looking for--also read the page on Tallyrand . You might want to read the preface first to see the author's connection to Monaco and Albert I.

Full text of "Monaco and Monte Carlo"

[Bones]

Oh, thank you, thank you, thank you! That is such a help -an actual book and some consistent info -just what the doctor ordered. Just what you posted has already sorted a few things out that were bothering me. Sandsla= I will look the rest up and see if I can find an old copy of that book floating around somewhere. Great big thank you again!

[sandsla]

Originally Posted by Bones

Oh, thank you, thank you, thank you! That is such a help -an actual book and some consistent info -just what the doctor ordered. Just what you posted has already sorted a few things out that were bothering me. Sandsla= I will look the rest up and see if I can find an old copy of that book floating around somewhere. Great big thank you again!

Your welcome, I'm glad it helped you.

[Renata4711]

May I add my thanks for finding this book and making it available to us "Monegascomaniacs" !

What amused me was the occurrence of both Giballin Grimaldi, a Ghibelline, and Francois Grimaldi, a Guelph.

Also, Prince Ernst August of Hanover is, to this day, the head of the "Welfen" (= Guelph).

Many thanks!

[sandsla]

Originally Posted by Renata4711

May I add my thanks for finding this book and making it available to us "Monegascomaniacs" !

What amused me was the occurrence of both Giballin Grimaldi, a Ghibelline, and Francois Grimaldi, a Guelph.

Also, Prince Ernst August of Hanover is, to this day, the head of the "Welfen" (= Guelph).

Many thanks!

Interesting, I didn't catch this?

(And your welcome )

[Renata4711]

For the first time, the barracks of the Carabiniers on Boulevard de Belgique have become a temporary museum.
The theme: The Princes of Monaco from Honoré V to Albert II.

More than a year ago, two senior Carabiniers wanted to "re-tell the history of the Principality regarding the princes and their guards". They acquired material from the Compagnie des Carabiniers itself, from the Palace, the Regional Fund, the Musée des Traditions Monégasques, and from Monegasque families.

The idea is to make people aware of some of the less known princes.

Each Sovereign Prince has its own display of personal items. The oldest one is a lock of hair from Honoré V. There is also Albert I's portable writing desk, used during his military campaigns. Louis II is represented by his visiting cards and his moneybag.

Monaco.maville.com Les princes de Monaco rassemblés dans leur musée

[DuedePhiladelphia]

Originally Posted by Renata4711

For the first time, the barracks of the Carabiniers on Boulevard de Belgique have become a temporary museum.
The theme: The Princes of Monaco from Honoré V to Albert II.

More than a year ago, two senior Carabiniers wanted to "re-tell the history of the Principality regarding the princes and their guards". They acquired material from the Compagnie des Carabiniers itself, from the Palace, the Regional Fund, the Musée des Traditions Monégasques, and from Monegasque families.

The idea is to make people aware of some of the less known princes.

Each Sovereign Prince has its own display of personal items. The oldest one is a lock of hair from Honoré V. There is also Albert I's portable writing desk, used during his military campaigns. Louis II is represented by his visiting cards and his moneybag.

Monaco.maville.com Les princes de Monaco rassemblés dans leur musée

wish it was in english

[Bones]

Sounds like good stuff. I wish I could be there to see it and it's a great idea to try to educate people about the past princes. Honore V had quite an interesting life, struggles because of his divorced parents, efforts to take power from his uncle, his friendship with Empress Josephine and his meeting with Napoleon on his way back from exile. As usual one could probably make a mini-series about him as with practically any other period of Grimaldi family history.

[Renata4711]

Sorry Due,

copyright rules state that we can only translate or quote up to 20 percent of each article. I think I managed to stick to the rule :-)

Have you tried to use an online translation facility? Being machine translations, they're not very good, but better than nothing.

[kalnel]

Was just looking at Prince Rainier's Wikipedia page, and it lists him being a descendant of "Prince Thomas M. Marciano II of Genoa." I'm betting that this is a hoax someone posted -- last month someone had added a "secret" son for King Juan Carlos -- but I thought I'd ask. I notice that several sites that repeat Wikipedia listings include this guy, but I can't find any other online references to him.

[Sensibility]

really? oh my god! spain is going to fall down with this!!!! is single?

[MAfan]

I'm sure it's a fake, another invented Prince insert in Wikipedia's biographies.
It's the third one I see...

[iowabelle]

Originally Posted by Sensibility

really? oh my god! spain is going to fall down with this!!!! is single?

This previously unknown Spanish prince mentioned in Wikipedia was the son of JC and Sofia, so it's not a Tiger Woods-type revelation.

And to be clear, JC and Sofia have only one son (and have had only one son), the Prince of Asturias.