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  #161  
Old 05-11-2010, 02:29 PM
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giorgi makes the claim:"the senior direct line descendents of the last King of Georgia Alexander I are the Bagrationi Mukhraneli line."[/I]
We answer:First of all, the senior line is the line of the kings in a non-salic kingdom --- that is the line of HRH Prince Nugzar. The Mukhraneli line of Prince David's ancestors lost all dynastic rights in 1505. While Prince Nugzar's ancestors continued to rule all the way to the 1800's. Prince Nugzar not only descended from Alexander I, but the last King to rule all of Georgia, King Giorgi VIII (1446-1466). Genealogy has nothing to do with anything. There is no cadet line in a non-salic kingdom. There is only the senior line and a number of other princely lines (almost 120) many of whom had higher prestige and greater power than the non-dynastic, non-royal Mukhraneli line. This particular non-collateral line began with Prince Bagrat Muhkranbatoni in the 1500's.
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  #162  
Old 05-11-2010, 02:40 PM
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giorgi makes false statement:"The Bagration Mukhraneli is the oldest line of the Bagration Family and they are directly descendents of the last King of united Georgia, Alexander I."
We answer: It is a well-known historical fact that the last king of united Georgia, King Giorgi VIII, was Prince Nugzar's ancestor. The Bagration Mukraneli line did not descend from him. They were part of the high nobility, not royalty. This line was never designated in any of the ancient or modern documents as having collateral rights. They were nobles who worked for the Prince Nugzar's ancestors.
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  #163  
Old 05-11-2010, 02:48 PM
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Giorgi makes false statement: By request of the Spanish King Alfonso XII, due to the Royal wedding of Infanta Maria de las Mercedes de Baviera y de Borbon with H.R.H. Prince Irakli Bagration Mukhraneli, Vladimir Kirilovich Romanov, Head of the Romanov Imperial Family, issued a statement in which he recognized the Royal blood of the Bagration Mukhraneli.
We answer: This is obviously a false statement as the marriage between a prince of Mukhrani, a noble, and an Imperial princess was declared to be legally of unequal rank or status, or morganatic, and the 1910 Almanch de Gotha confirmed the same to be their status. In addition, the Infanta Juan of Spain, the father of King Juan Carlos I, then Head of the Royal House, declared them to be a non-royal line. He ". . . considered the issue of this marriage to be disqualified from the Spanish succession." (Line of succession to the Russian throne - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) Clearly, their (Mukhranski`s) royal status has been called into question.

While the royal line (Gruzinski) was recognized with the prenominal title of "Serene Highness" and "the Most Respectful" and as "Princes of Georgia," as a royal house by Imperial Russia,the Mukhrani noble house, were only ". . . confirmed as Prince Bagration of Moukhrani by decrees of the Council of the Empire 20 Sep 1825, 25 Mar 1826 and 8 Dec 1850, of Senate 25 Mar 1836, 7 June & 7 Jul 1847, 10 May 1850, 16 Apr 1858, 2 Dec 1864 and 1 Mar 1872)." (HISTORY OF THE BAGRATID DYNASTY) This was not a royal or sovereign status.

The Infante Juan of Spain, designated heir of King Alfonso XIII of Spain, refused to recognize "his god-son as a Spanish dynast," because his mother had married a non-royal, the grandfather of Prince David. Prince David Bagrationi-Mukhraneli is from this line, which is a line of non-reigning, non-dynastic princes of the high nobility of Georgia.
(Infante Juan, Count of Barcelona - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)
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  #164  
Old 05-11-2010, 03:26 PM
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giorgi tries to keep reader in lie, he says: In the case of Bagrationi Imeretinsky line, the last member passed away in 2009 (Nino Bagration Imeretinsky)...
We answer: HRH Princess Nino Bagration-Imeretinski (1915-2009), the former head of Imereti Royal House and the chief of "the House of Bagrationi`s" in 2006 signed an important memorandum where she on behalf of Imereti royal branch recognised the rightful claim and sovereignty of the Bagrationi-Gruzinski family for the whole dynasty of Bagrationi. Prince Nugzar is descended from this line as well through Queen Khoreshan.
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  #165  
Old 05-11-2010, 03:51 PM
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We ask a simple question: giorgi, what David's ancestors were doing when Crown Prince Nugzar's direct ancestors and near relatives headed all the popular uprisings against Russian Empire in XIX th century?

We will answer:nothing! Sat in their own estates and were encouraged from the Russian officials while the members of royal family were fighting for country. In fact, Prince (King) Gregory I (1789-1830), a descendant of the great King of United Kartli-Kakheti (Georgia) Kingdom, Erekle II, courageously fought to restored the Kingdom in the rebellions of 1812 (in same year he was proclaimed as the King of Georgia by nation). Sovereignty was fearcely defended. The whole Royal family was then exiled to Russia.
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  #166  
Old 05-11-2010, 03:58 PM
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The following is the royal line so it can more easily read:

The King Alexander I the Great
(Anointed King)
King of United Kingdom of Georgia
(1412-1442)

King Giorgi VIII
(Anointed King)
Last King of United Kingdom of Georgia (1446-1466)
King of Kakheti (1466-1476)

Alexander I
(Anointed King)
King of Kakheti (1476-1511)

Giorgi II
(Anointed King)
King of Kakheti (1511-1513)

Levan I
(Anointed King)
King of Kahheti (1518-1574)

Alexander II
(Anointed King)
King of Kakheti (1574-1605)

Davit I
(Anointed King)
King of Kakheti (1601-1602)

Teimuraz I
(Anointed King)
King of Kakheti (1606-1663)
King of Kartli & Kakheti (1625-1633)

Prince Davit
(1612-1648)

Erekle I
(Anointed King)
King of Kartli (1688-1703)
King of Kakheti (1703-1709)

Teimuraz II
(Anointed King)
King of Kakheti (1732-1744)
King of Kartli (1744-1762)

Erekle II
(Anointed King)
King of Kakheti (1744-1762)
King of the United Kingdom
of Kartli & Kakheti (1762-1798) (King of Georgia)

Giorgi XII
(Anointed King)
King of United Kingdom
of Kartli & Kakheti (1798-1800) (King of Georia)

HRH Bagrat, Georgian Prince (heir & successor to the throne)
(Batonishvili/Tsarevich) (1776-1841)

HRH Alexander, Georgian Prince (heir & successor to the throne)
(Batonishvili/Tsarevich) (1820-1865)

HRH Peter, Georgian Prince (heir & successor to the throne)
(Batonishvili/Tsarevich) (1857-1922)

HRH Peter, Georgian Prince (heir & successor to the throne)
(Batonishvili/Tsarevich) (1920-1984)

His Royal Highness Prince NUGZAR
Heir & Successor to the Throne of Georgia
(Batonishvili/Tsarevich) (Born 1950)

HRH ANNA, Georgian Princess (2nd in line of succession right
after HRH Prince Nugzar)
(Batonishvili/Tsarevich) (Born 1976)
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  #167  
Old 05-11-2010, 04:10 PM
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I have some questions for our Georgian posters.

Is it known when exactly Prince David Bagration-Mukhransky and Princess Anna of Georgia divorced? And has the Patriarch annulled the marriage?
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  #168  
Old 05-12-2010, 01:19 AM
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Daer Varaz.
you dont answer the questions, and please dont be ungry the true its the true.
God dont need to change any think but god can change every think
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  #169  
Old 05-12-2010, 01:30 AM
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12. The family of Bagrationi-Mukhraneli
In the 16th century, in 1512, Prince Bagrat Bagrationi, the brother of David X (King of Kartli),
received the Mukhrani region with more than 60 villages as the Principality, named after as
Samukhranbatono and owners of it – as Bagration-Mukhranbatonis or Bagration-Mukhranelis
(the Russian form – Bagration-Mukhranski). This important Principality existed after annexation
of Georgia by the Tsarist Russia during whole 19th century (before the 1918).
It will be noted, that in the 17th-18th centuries (before 1724) the Kingdom of Kartly was ruled by
the representatives of this branch of Bagrationi’s family as the Kartli’s Governors (Janishins)
from the first and after – as the Kings. The Kings of Kartli from the family of Bagration-
Mukhraneli were: Vakhtang V, Giorgi XI, Erekle I, Vakhtang VI, Kaikhosro and Iese.
It is notable, that representative of this branch of Bagrationi’s family in Europe is the present
Head of the Bagrationi’s Royal House, H.R.H., Prince David Bagrationi (b. in 1976), the son of
H.R.H., Prince Giorgi (Jorge) Bagrationi de Moukhrani (1944, Rome, - 2008, Tbilisi).
After occupation-annexation of the Democratic
Republic of Georgia (1918-1921) by Bolshevik Russia in 1921, the one part of Bagration-
Mukhranelis forced to leave Georgia and chanced to find oneself in Europe. The remained part of
this and other branches of the Bagrationi’s family was under permanent repression of the
Bolshevik-Communist regime.
The one, who could leave Georgia with his family and emigrated to Europe, was the grandfather
of H.R.H, Prince Giorgi (Jorge) Bagration de Mukhranski – Prince Giorgi Bagration-Mukhraneli.
Father of Prince Jorge Bagrationi – H.R.H., Prince Irakli Bagration-Mukhraneli (1909-1977) was
one of the noted representatives of the Georgian Political Emigration. In 1939 he founded an
Orthodox Knightly Order of a Tunic of our Lord (He was a Grand Master of this Order). In 1942
in Germany “The Union of Georgian Traditionalists” was created by his guidance. The main
purposes of this Union were liberation of Georgia from tyranny of Soviet Empire and foundation
of the Constitutional Monarchy in Georgia.
The 1st wife of H.R.H. Irakli Bagration-Mukhraneli was the daughter of the Italian Count Hugo
Pascuini – Maria-Antoinette (mother of Prince Jorge Bagrationi, dead in 1944) and the second –
Infanta Maria-Mersedes , representative of the Spanish Royal House of Borbones (dead in 1961).
Only after 1990, when the national forces, guided by the first democratically elected President of
the Republic of Georgia, Dr. Zviad K. Gamsakhurdia (1939-1993), came to power and Georgia
restored its State Independence, it would be possible to put close connection with Bagrationi’s
Royal House in Europe.

Page 1 .
References:
l A. Khakhanov. "Histoire de la Georgie", Paris, 1900 (in French)
l L. Le Four. “Georgia and International Law”, Paris, 1932 (in French)
l Al. Sanders (Al. Nikuradze). “Kaukasien”, Munchen, 1944 (in German)
l A. Manvelichvili. "Histoire de la Georgie", Paris, 1951 (in French)
l A. Manvelishvili. "Russia and Georgia. 1801-1951", Vol. I, Paris, 1951 (in Georgian)
l C. Kandelaki. “The Georgian Question before the Free World”, Paris, 1953
l A. Papava. “Georgia (Historia, Geografia, Economia), Buenos Aires, 1953 (in Spanish)
l Jan V. Nanuashvili. “What everyone in the Free World should know about Russia”, New
York – Washington – Hollywood, 1973
l K. Salia. "History of the Georgian Nation", Paris, 1983
l Kartlis Tskhovreba, vol. I-IV, Tbilisi, 1955-1973 (in Georgian)
l P. Ingorokva. Giorgi Merchule (a monograph), Tbilisi, 1954 (in Georgian)
l E. Takaishvili. "Georgian chronology and the beginning of the Bagratid rule in Georgia".-
Georgica, London, v.I, 1935
l Sumbat Davitis dze. "Chronicle of the Bagrastion's of Tao-Klarjeti", with the investigation
of Ekvtime Takaishvili, Tbilisi, 1949 (in Georgian)
l "Das Leben Kartlis", ubers. und herausgegeben von Gertrud Patch, Leipzig, 1985 (in
German)
l “Familles Princieres de Georgie” by J. Ferrand, Montreuil, 1983 (in French)
l L. Urushadze. "The Comnenus's of Trabizond and the Bagrationi dynasty of Georgia".- J.
"Tsiskari", Tbilisi, No 4, 1991, pp. 144-148 (in Georgian)
l V. Guchua, N. Shoshiashvili. "Bagration's".- Encyclopedia "Sakartvelo", vol.I, Tbilisi,
1997, pp. 318-319 (in Georgian)
l Sumbat Davitis dze, “Tskhovreba da Utskebay Bagrationta”, Edited by Dr. Goneli
Arakhamia, Publishing House “Metsniereba”, Tbilisi, 1990 (in Georgian)
l “North and South” by Dr. Tedo Dundua.- http://www.nato.int/acad/fellow/99-01/dundua.
pdf , 1999 (in English)
l “History of Georgia” by Dr. Giorgi Gabeskiria.- http://www.nplg.gov.ge/ic/library_e/
gabeskiria , 2002 (in Georgian and English)
l “Georgia”.- History , 2003 (in English)
l “The Bagrationi (Bagration) Dynasty” by Christopher Buyers.- http://4dw.net/royalark/
Georgia/georgia.htm (in English)
l Prince Jorge de Bagration.- Jorge de Bagration - Career Summary (in English).
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  #170  
Old 05-12-2010, 01:44 AM
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430]
The following is the royal line so it can more easily read:

The King Alexander I the Great
(Anointed King)
King of United Kingdom of Georgia
(1412-1442)

King Giorgi VIII
(Anointed King)
Last King of United Kingdom of Georgia (1446-1466)
King of Kakheti (1466-1476)

Alexander I
(Anointed King)
King of Kakheti (1476-1511)

Giorgi II
(Anointed King)
King of Kakheti (1511-1513)

Levan I
(Anointed King)
King of Kahheti (1518-1574)

Alexander II
(Anointed King)
King of Kakheti (1574-1605)

Davit I
(Anointed King)
King of Kakheti (1601-1602)

Teimuraz I
(Anointed King)
King of Kakheti (1606-1663)
King of Kartli & Kakheti (1625-1633)

Prince Davit
(1612-1648)

Erekle I
(Anointed King)
King of Kartli (1688-1703)
King of Kakheti (1703-1709)

Teimuraz II
(Anointed King)
King of Kakheti (1732-1744)
King of Kartli (1744-1762)

Erekle II
(Anointed King)
King of Kakheti (1744-1762)
King of the United Kingdom
of Kartli & Kakheti (1762-1798) (King of Georgia)

Giorgi XII
(Anointed King)
King of United Kingdom
of Kartli & Kakheti (1798-1800) (King of Georia)

HRH Bagrat, Georgian Prince (heir & successor to the throne)
(Batonishvili/Tsarevich) (1776-1841)

HRH Alexander, Georgian Prince (heir & successor to the throne)
(Batonishvili/Tsarevich) (1820-1865)

HRH Peter, Georgian Prince (heir & successor to the throne)
(Batonishvili/Tsarevich) (1857-1922)

HRH Peter, Georgian Prince (heir & successor to the throne)
(Batonishvili/Tsarevich) (1920-1984)

His Royal Highness Prince NUGZAR
Heir & Successor to the Throne of
Kartli & Kakheti
(Batonishvili/Tsarevich) (Born 1950)

HRH ANNA, Georgian Princess (2nd in line of succession right
after HRH Prince Nugzar)
(Batonishvili/Tsarevich) (Born 1976)

IRINA MALANIA
end of Gruzinsky line and Claims .........................................

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  #171  
Old 05-12-2010, 02:58 AM
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Dear Benjamin.

it seems that the pretensions of the branch Gruzinsky are more stronger than his vital need of continuing his branch.
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  #172  
Old 05-12-2010, 07:35 AM
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giorgi nervously claim:n the 16th century, in 1512, Prince Bagrat Bagrationi, the brother of David X (King of Kartli), received the Mukhrani region with more than 60 villages as the Principality, named after as Samukhranbatono and owners of it – as Bagration-Mukhranbatonis or Bagration-Mukhranelis
We answer:Mukhranbatoni branch of offshoot princes of the high nobility (Prince David's ancestors) lost all sovereign and royal rights when King of Kartli - Konstantin II's (1478-1505) older son King David X (1505-1525) took the throne of Kartli instead of their direct ancestor; the younger son - Prince Bagrat Mukhranbatoni, who began the Bagrationi-Mukhranski branch. No one of this lesser line has reigned over any kingdom since the time of King Konstantin II of Kartli in 1505. They did not rule over anything after this time, not a principality, a county or a barony --- not even a tiny lordship. They had a relatively small fief compared to many other princes, but not real rulership or sovereignty like the non-royal lords of England. Only the head of the house chosen by the king was a "Prince of Mukhrani." No other family members shared in the title. Many of the Mukhrani family worked for the kings, Prince Nugzar's ancestors, as designated or assigned, some acted in the high capacity as ambassadors for the kingdom. But no one of this family actually ruled over a territory.

The point is, the kings were everything --- everyone and everything else were subservient to them. The king decided who of each line would hold the title of prince. No one else in the family had this exalted title. Sometimes the youngest member of the family was chosen to be the head of the family. There were no letters patent or titular rights. The kings, Irakli I, Teimuraz II and Irakli II, for example, decided who could be a prince of Mukhranbatoni from the whole Mukhranski family line. All others held no title, but the family was considered noble. The Princes were non-sovereign vassals of the king and they did not have vassals of their own. The kings ruled supremely and absolutely. For example, the royal house not only had the right, but actually took the princedom, the large feudal territory, away from the princes of Aragvi in 1743 and later the lands of the princes of Ksani were forfeit to the crown in 1773 all at the discretion of the kings. [/COLOR]
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  #173  
Old 05-12-2010, 08:08 AM
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  #174  
Old 05-12-2010, 08:38 AM
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giorgi strongly worries: "it seems that the pretensions of the branch Gruzinsky are more stronger than his vital need of continuing his branch."
We answer: Even in Sweden, in 1980, the rule of succession was changed from agnatic to equal primogeniture. This means that the eldest child of the monarch, regardless of sex, is the first in line of succession. This created Victoria (born 1977) crown princess over her younger brother Prince Carl Philip (born 1979). This meant that Victoria was able at the age of 18 to act as a regent, in place of her father when he was out of the country. On June 19th, 2010, she is to marry Daniel Westling (commoner) who will become Prince of Sweden.

We answer: Succession to the throne of Netherlands.
When the monarch dies or abdicates, his or her eldest son or daughter succeeds to the throne. The line of succession is laid down in the Constitution. This happened most recently in 1980, when Princess Beatrix succeeded her mother, Queen Juliana.
If the monarch has no legitimate children, the throne will pass to another member of the Royal House (NOT TO ANY OFFSHOOT BRANCH, LIKE MUKHRANI`S) in accordance with the line of succession as laid down in the Constitution.
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  #175  
Old 05-12-2010, 09:06 AM
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Dear Benjamin: According to the plan of the Patriarch of Georgia, before constitutional monarchy could be accepted by the country, the child born from the well-known marriage between David, a Prince of the high nobility, and Anna, Princess of the royal blood, would have to grow up so he could become the future monarch.
Right after the wedding, David declared himself on an Internet site as the head of the house, and his immediate ancestors as kings, when in reality they were never anything more than part of the high nobility of Georgia.
David was visiting the Crown Prince`s apartment and he apologized, from his side, before HRH Prince Nugzar on behalf of his ancestors, who had usurped the dynastic position early in the 20th century. He stated that they did not know about existence of the members of Prince Nugzar’s family. David confirmed that the Bagration-Gruzinski family had the highest entitlement to the Crown of the kingdom of Georgia. Nobody knew about David’s website that declared anything different, otherwise HRH Prince Nugzar would not have allowed his daughter to marry David. But at this point, what happened cannot be changed. We consider it a mistake which has already done damage to how monarchy is perceived in this land.
If Prince Nugzar, the heir or "de jure" monarch and king of Georgia, passes away and the marriage between David and Anna is still intact, David would be head of the home, but not head of state He is not the rightful heir. That would be HRH Princess Anna's exclusive right as HRH Prince Nugzar has designated her as his heir, and the more ancient history and traditions of ancient Georgia provides for female succession, when no male heir can be found, because succession is primogeniture
This determination is absolute and will not change.
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  #176  
Old 05-12-2010, 09:50 AM
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Dear Varaz.

in Sweden its monarchy and in the orthodox Georgia its not ,and nugzar its not the King of no where.
the true its that, if we dont take in consideration that nugzar its not more than a theatry director his grandaughters are malania surname.
if we dont take in cosideration that the Mukhrani Brach have been recognizated by every one and nugzar not even in his theatry.,any way they are malanias.
where are in georgia and not sweden.
do you have any documents about davits apologize????? its seams one more lie from nugzar..
varaz the Bagrationi Mukhraneli Branch are declarated the royal house of georgia from long time ago and not after the wedding.
and why nugzar let ana to married the malania just a simple boy from samegrelo ,if he was having any pretension to the throne of Georgia?

MALANIA = END OF GRUZINSKY LINE...NUGZAR LAST IN KARTL KAKHETI KINGDOM THAT DOES NOT EXIST 2 CENTURIES AGO.
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Old 05-12-2010, 09:58 AM
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As will be observed in the chart below, the line of all the original kings, including that of the Kingdom of Imereti, through Queen Khoreshan (1659), comes down through the generations to His Royal Highness Prince Nugzar who has the highest monarchical entitlement on earth to all of Georgia from every royal line.

There are four basic historical documents where all princely and noble family surnames of Georgia are described:

(1) The list of Georgian Princely and Noble families, signed by the King of Georgia Erekle II in 1783.
(2) Schedule of Georgian Princely and Noble Families, made by HRH Prince Ioane, the son of King Giorgi XII in 1799.
(3) Schedule made by Russian empire after 49 years of annexation of Georgia in 1850.
(4) Schedule of Princely families made up through the 18th through the 20th Centuries.

This includes the lines that involved the illustrious Prince Eristavi of Aragvi, Prince Eristavi of Ksani, Prince Amilakhvari, Prince Orbeliani, etc. In fact, there are about 120 princely families of the nobility and/or higher nobility, but none of them were sovereign; all of them served the kings of Georgia. Not one of the noble lines described in these decrees were given collateral or dynastic rights to the throne or scepter of the land. They were simply nobles and nothing more and this includes the Mukhranski branch, who had less prominence than many other princely houses. Many of them received recognition in Russia with a higher status than the Mukhranski line. It is important to understand that none of the princely lines were equal to the line of the kings. (Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia/List_of_Georgian_princely_families)


King Erekle II of Georgia

The direct ancesstor of HRH Crown Prince Nugzar of Georgia
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  #178  
Old 05-12-2010, 10:37 AM
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  #179  
Old 05-12-2010, 11:02 AM
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giorgi claims: The Kings of Kartli from the family of Bagration-Mukhraneli were: Vakhtang V, Giorgi XI, Erekle I, Vakhtang VI, Kaikhosro and Iese.
We answer: One prince of Mukhrani, not one of David's ancestors, became the King of Kartli as Vakhtang V (Bakhuta Mukhranbatoni). He was adopted by King Rostom. This prince of Mukhrani and a number of the kings that followed him are the ancestors of Prince Nugzar through Vakhtang VI's daughter Princess Tamar. She married the King of the united Kingdoms of Kartli and Kakheti, King Teimuraz I. (Please see chart above).

As will be observed in the chart above, the line of all the original kings, including that of the Kingdom of Imereti, through Queen Khoreshan (1659), comes down through the generations to His Royal Highness Prince Nugzar who has the highest monarchical entitlement on earth to all of Georgia from every royal line.

What is really true is that Mukhrani branch of high-nobility is non-reigning branch!!!
What "Iverieli" states is totally wrong !
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  #180  
Old 05-12-2010, 04:18 PM
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Some more articles about David and Anna Bagrationi:

http://primetime.ge/main/ExclusiveDe...eo.aspx?id=156

http://www.interpressnews.ge/ge/index.php/permalink/127937.html&hd_line=1

http://www.factnews.ge/index.php?lan...d=16987&act=ns
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