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  #241  
Old 06-02-2014, 10:40 PM
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Like everyone else, this news produced a gasp from me when I heard it during the Supper Hour Newscast. While his health has not been good of late, I just have a funny feeling it's not the only reason why Juan Carlos is taking this step now. Don't know why, but I just do.

God Save King Felipe and Queen Letitzia!!
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  #242  
Old 06-02-2014, 10:40 PM
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My Thoughts on Abdication

Like most who have commented here, I was shocked this morning when I heard the news.


I am a bit torn about abdication.

On the one hand, I hate to see this old tradition of staying till the bitter end die. (pardon the pun) However, we must remember that when it came into being, average life expectancy was about 55. Now people can live to a very great age.
I fully expect that Queen Elizabeth II can possibly go on for another 10 years. Not quite so sure about Queen Margaurite II because she is a heavy smoker.

Also, abdication can be seen as a very humane gesture to your child. They are not waiting for you to die to achieve their purpose in life. I recall Princess Victoria once saying with incredulity that a reporter had asked her if she looked forward to the day she came to the throne. She said "Don't they know they are talking about my father dying?"

If one is not abdicating in a cloud of controversy (and I am not implying this is the case...I don't know enough about the circumstances), it can allow the succession of the next in line to be a fully joyous occasion, not a time of mourning and some feelings of guilt. JMO.

Ana
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  #243  
Old 06-02-2014, 11:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Duke of Marmalade View Post
I wonder what went on behind the scenes. The old man will surely have protected himself. This will be hard on everybody, we'll see how active for example Sofia will stay. Juan Carlos will probably become some kind of Elder Statesman, still using his connections. There will be a lot of pressure on the Asturias family now, Leonor becoming Princess of Asturias at the age of 9.

Felipe and Letizia are ready for this and I have no doubt that they will be be popular monarchs. But Leo has been one of the most sheltered Royal children ever...I hope the transition will be smooth for that little girl. She is now the Princess of Asturias and Heiress Presumptive!
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  #244  
Old 06-02-2014, 11:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ana Von Cleves View Post
Like most who have commented here, I was shocked this morning when I heard the news.


I am a bit torn about abdication.

On the one hand, I hate to see this old tradition of staying till the bitter end die. (pardon the pun) However, we must remember that when it came into being, average life expectancy was about 55. Now people can live to a very great age.
I fully expect that Queen Elizabeth II can possibly go on for another 10 years. Not quite so sure about Queen Margaurite II because she is a heavy smoker.

Also, abdication can be seen as a very humane gesture to your child. They are not waiting for you to die to achieve their purpose in life. I recall Princess Victoria once saying with incredulity that a reporter had asked her if she looked forward to the day she came to the throne. She said "Don't they know they are talking about my father dying?"

If one is not abdicating in a cloud of controversy (and I am not implying this is the case...I don't know enough about the circumstances), it can allow the succession of the next in line to be a fully joyous occasion, not a time of mourning and some feelings of guilt. JMO.

Ana
It can also be a time of great joy. I saw a number of videos of Princess Beatrix and King Willem-Alexander together signing official documents, appearing on the balcony together. They both seemed very happy. I would imagine it gave her great joy to see her son take the throne and know that she would be there to help him in his new role. Rather like we like to see our children graduate school and get married. To share such an important moment in her child's life.
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  #245  
Old 06-03-2014, 12:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Excalibur View Post
Not exactly. Upon the death of her husband, George VI, Queen Elizabeth was officially entitled to the style The Dowager Queen, but she was also entitled to the style of The Queen Mother, as she was the mother of the sovereign. Needing a distinct style (so as to differentiate between herself and the new sovereign, Queen Elizabeth II) and not wanting to be known as Dowager Queen Elizabeth, she chose to be known as Queen Elizabeth The Queen Mother. It was not honorary, it was official; and by all accounts she revelled in being known as The Queen Mum.
You might be correct but I was copying directly from a bio on the Queen Mum. Author even stated a time when QM told an editor of Times she didn't like be called the Queen Mother. She preferred "Mother of the Queen".
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  #246  
Old 06-03-2014, 12:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ana Von Cleves View Post
Like most who have commented here, I was shocked this morning when I heard the news.


I am a bit torn about abdication.

On the one hand, I hate to see this old tradition of staying till the bitter end die. (pardon the pun) However, we must remember that when it came into being, average life expectancy was about 55. Now people can live to a very great age.
I fully expect that Queen Elizabeth II can possibly go on for another 10 years. Not quite so sure about Queen Margaurite II because she is a heavy smoker.

Also, abdication can be seen as a very humane gesture to your child. They are not waiting for you to die to achieve their purpose in life. I recall Princess Victoria once saying with incredulity that a reporter had asked her if she looked forward to the day she came to the throne. She said "Don't they know they are talking about my father dying?"

If one is not abdicating in a cloud of controversy (and I am not implying this is the case...I don't know enough about the circumstances), it can allow the succession of the next in line to be a fully joyous occasion, not a time of mourning and some feelings of guilt. JMO.

Ana

To me I think some of the "staying until the bitter end" aspect of it is because of the oaths they take and the religious aspect. It's not so much because once upon a time monarchs were expected to die younger (there are a good number of monarchs who lived fairly long, and many of those who didn't were either warriors or lived unhealthy lifestyles), but because they had been chosen by God and anointed as King. This issue comes up fairly frequently in the history of usurpation and abdication in English history, as even the people who had pushed out the previous king often weren't okay with killing an anointed king.

Look at Elizabeth II. She was raised to believe that it was her God given duty to be royal and be the monarch. She was taught that the worst thing she could do was abdicate - and to do so was to accept living in exile, without her home or family. Even she before she was monarch she publicly vowed to dedicate her life to serving her people, and in her coronation she did so before both her people and her God. This isn't something that she's likely to take lightly or really reconsider, given how she was raised, her dedication, and her strong religious beliefs.

In the Netherlands it's different. The monarchy is younger and they don't have the history of monarchs reigning until death. 4 out of 6 monarchs (excluding WA) have abdicated, and of the 2 that didn't it's easy to see how circumstances prevented them from doing so (one being rather young when he died, the other being older but having a 10 year old heir). The Dutch monarchs don't vow to serve for life before God, so when they chose to abdicate it has very different implications.

I feel for JC, as well as Albert and Benedict before him, since they've all essentially been forced into doing something that goes against the nature of their titles, positions, and oaths. Each man may have very well come to the decision to abdicate on their own, but I don't think for a moment that it was something any did lightly or with any degree of ease or happiness - it may have been their choice, but I fully believed the circumstances around them forced them into the decision. To me, this growing trend of monarchs being forced to abdicate in no small part because of scandal is not a good sign for the future of monarchies. It might be a fix for now, and a necessary one at that, but it can be a crack in the foundation of the concept, especially for realms where there is no tradition of abdication and/or there is a tradition of mass demonstrations or republicanism.
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  #247  
Old 06-03-2014, 12:45 AM
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  #248  
Old 06-03-2014, 01:14 AM
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[To me, this growing trend of monarchs being forced to abdicate in no small part because of scandal is not a good sign for the future of monarchies. It might be a fix for now, and a necessary one at that, but it can be a crack in the foundation of the concept, especially for realms where there is no tradition of abdication and/or there is a tradition of mass demonstrations or republicanism. ]// quote Ish

So very true. Your entire post is spot on but this last paragraph really struck a chord. Among some, the push for abdication is because the Royal watchers-media included- want to see a younger and more photogenic couple on the Throne. You can see this sentiment especially among those who want to see the Prince of Wales passed over in favor of William.

I am not sure this abdication trend is a good thing at all for the future of any of the remaining monarchies. Hurray for QEII for bucking the trend!
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  #249  
Old 06-03-2014, 03:25 AM
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Where did they get next year from?
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  #250  
Old 06-03-2014, 03:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carlota View Post
interesting declarations of Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna on the abdication:


The Russian Imperial House of Romanov has expressed regret over the abdication of the throne by King Juan Carlos of Spain in favor of his son, Felipe of Asturias. The head of the House of Romanov, Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna, lives in Spain.
A rather shameful declaration by Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna, again showing she has no any understanding of democratic processes and modern kingship. It is shameful because from no one else she received so much hospitality than from Don Juan Carlos, arranging for her to live in Madrid.

What a brutal and disqualifying declaration from Maria Vladimirovna.

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  #251  
Old 06-03-2014, 04:09 AM
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What do you think how sucessful are the republican movements in Spain now?
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  #252  
Old 06-03-2014, 05:02 AM
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What do you think how sucessful are the republican movements in Spain now?
It is not really a republican movement, it is the reqular mix of separatists, anti-globalists, occupy movement, anarchists, squatters, anti-everythingers, disillusioned citizens and the usual sweepstake actions by social media.

There are always protests in Spanish cities. This time they grabbed the opportunity and worldwide media attention to get rid of the monarchy. As if by magic a president would solve Spain's deep problems...
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  #253  
Old 06-03-2014, 05:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Moonmaiden23 View Post
[To me, this growing trend of monarchs being forced to abdicate in no small part because of scandal is not a good sign for the future of monarchies. It might be a fix for now, and a necessary one at that, but it can be a crack in the foundation of the concept, especially for realms where there is no tradition of abdication and/or there is a tradition of mass demonstrations or republicanism. ]// quote Ish

So very true. Your entire post is spot on but this last paragraph really struck a chord. Among some, the push for abdication is because the Royal watchers-media included- want to see a younger and more photogenic couple on the Throne. You can see this sentiment especially among those who want to see the Prince of Wales passed over in favor of William.

I am not sure this abdication trend is a good thing at all for the future of any of the remaining monarchies. Hurray for QEII for bucking the trend!


Couldn´t agree more! The trend "We´re cross with the king we have. Let´s have the next one!" is a very dangerous one for the institution of monarchy! The concept to change when someone falls out of favour is a profoundly republican, not a monarchial one.
Let´s face it: If both Kings Albert II and Juan Carlos still had the full support of the public and media, they´d still be in office!
I pity CP Félipe: His accession won´t be a smooth one by any means...
And now happens what I thought before would happen: The spanish republicans embrace the opportunity and try to abolish the monarchy completely now...!
If Félipe and Letizia will really manage to succeed they are sadly very likely to become the last monarchs of Spain....
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  #254  
Old 06-03-2014, 05:39 AM
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And now happens what I thought before would happen: The spanish republicans embrace the opportunity and try to abolish the monarchy completely now...!
And you think that would not have happened in the case of JC's death?
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  #255  
Old 06-03-2014, 05:49 AM
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I wasn't surprised he abdicated.

It didn't get much attention in my area, just a crawl during the morning news.
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  #256  
Old 06-03-2014, 05:54 AM
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If Félipe and Letizia will really manage to succeed they are sadly very likely to become the last monarchs of Spain....
And why not? As much as Juan Carlos did the transition from dictatorship to democracy, Felipe's role could be guiding the country from unitary parliamentary constitutional monrachy to a republic, if this turns out what people want in the next decade or so. Felipe is not stupid, at the end of the day monarchy has become outdated and Spain has never been a classic monarchistic country unlike eg the nordic countries, that seem to enjoy the pomp and glamour part.
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  #257  
Old 06-03-2014, 06:21 AM
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According to El País, King Felipe´s proclamation won´t be before June 16th, that is, we´ll have around two weeks for the preparations and necessary changes

El Rey abdica: La proclamación de Felipe VI se celebrará a partir del 16 de junio | Política | EL PAÍS

Quite a short process, I´d say.
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  #258  
Old 06-03-2014, 06:42 AM
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Let´s face it: If both Kings Albert II and Juan Carlos still had the full support of the public and media, they´d still be in office!
Heu...

Queen Wilhelmina had no full support of the public in 1948?
Grand Duchess Charlotte had no full support of the public in 1962?
Queen Juliana had no full support of the public in 1980?
Grand Duke Jean had no full support of the public in 2000?
Queen Beatrix had no full support of the public in 2013?

I am also not aware of any urge for King Albert II and King Juan Carlos to step down, apart from their ailing physical health with the advancing of the years. They abdicated completely voluntarily.

Note that the "abdicating monarchies" Netherlands and Luxemburg do -interesting enough- have the most firmly-rooted Royal Houses, looking at their position in society and popular approval. No one can say that the abdications have undermined these institutions.

In her memoires "Lonely, but not alone" Queen Wilhelmina wrote that she was inspired by the adbications of Charles V as Emperor of the Holy Roman Empire, King of Spain, King of Naples and the Two Sicilies, Archduke of Austria and Lord of the Netherlands in 1555 and 1556. In this sense, abdications are really nothing new, not for Spain and not for the Low Countries.

Picture: the abdication of Charles V. His son and Heir Felipe II bows to his father and brings homage, the Emperor leans on the shoulders of William of Nassau, Prince of Orange, his loyal Stadtholder in the Netherlands. (Later Felipe and William would become arch-enemies). Picture from Wikipedia: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...is_Gallait.jpg
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  #259  
Old 06-03-2014, 06:57 AM
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Today the King and Prince attend a military ceremony in El Escorial. The reference to Carlos V and Felipe II is now even more inevitable.

There are 200 media following the event.
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  #260  
Old 06-03-2014, 07:08 AM
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Originally Posted by ANNIE_S View Post
According to El País, King Felipe´s proclamation won´t be before June 16th, that is, we´ll have around two weeks for the preparations and necessary changes

El Rey abdica: La proclamación de Felipe VI se celebrará a partir del 16 de junio | Política | EL PAÍS

Quite a short process, I´d say.
Oh right,I thought it would be longer process.
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