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  #21  
Old 09-09-2009, 10:44 PM
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Hard for me to imagine even putting pen to paper with only six hours left to live! But after 20 years of captivity, Mary might have seen her death as a release from all the trials and tribulations she endured on Earth. From all accounts I have read, Mary had a strong religious faith and belief and that no doubt comforted her at the end.
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Old 09-09-2009, 11:14 PM
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I think she was also convinced that she was in the right in her actions. People who have that belief draw a great deal of comfort from that certainty. (As you can tell, I'm not a fan.)
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  #23  
Old 09-10-2009, 08:17 PM
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I could tell you were not "enamored" of her. I am not excusing her behavior but I am not a fan of the death penalty either. I would have preferred that she remain locked up as opposed to being executed and would have wanted a life in prison even if Mary was viewed as a threat to the throne. All that being said, while I find her an interesting figure for the times, I think Mary was foolish and not well-schooled to be a leader for her people.
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Old 09-10-2009, 09:31 PM
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Mary, unfortunately for her was a definitely a pawn in all aspects of her life. So with that in mind, she had to die. Sorry...thats just the way it is. Just as the existence of Jane Grey could have allowed others to fight in her name, the same applies to Mary.

You remove the cause and the followers need someone else to follow.
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Old 09-10-2009, 09:56 PM
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The Tudors and their contemporaries were hardly advocates of human rights. As long as Mary persisted in her claim to the English throne and plotted with Elizabeth's many enemies, she was a danger not only to Elizabeth but to the stability of England. There wasn't much else IMO that could have been done with Mary.

Although I think that Mary was inept, had she been a more capable person she still might have ended badly given the men around her. I think Elizabeth was a more astute leader but she was fortunate in that she was able to dominate the men around her. It seems that the Scottish aristocrats dominated Mary and merely used her as a pawn.

It won't hurt my feelings if we debate this matter. I may be harsh in my assessment of her...

Vasillisos, you raised an interesting idea. Had Mary been raised in Scotland and with more of a sense of the Scottish people/aristocracy would she have fared better? In reality Mary was a Frenchwoman, raised by her French mother and then in the French court.
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Old 09-10-2009, 10:19 PM
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I think that poses another great "what if" in history, doesn't it? I agree that the times were different back then and that Mary definitely posed a problem but I still admire her facing execution with some sense of majesty. Could she have been a better Queen if raised in Scotland? Hard to say and I would think she probably would not have been as magnificent as Elizabeth but I think being raised in the French court definitely did not give her an advantage when she returned to Scotland. Furthermore, her strong Catholic beliefs worked against her as well. In a way, her situation could be compared to Mary I as far as many people being opposed to returning to the old ways.
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  #27  
Old 09-10-2009, 11:36 PM
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Honestly, considering the Scottish nobility as it where...its a little damned if you do and damned if you don't. Mary, I think is an test case for Darwin. And I apologize for not phrasing it correctlyy, the question is Is She a product of her environment or is in her genes? Basically, if her circumstances had been different (Growing up in Scotland) would we still have the same result. I think things would be the same. From what I know of her, she just comes across as a very silly self indulgent woman. You are fighting the nobles in Scotland, they basically don't want you as their queen, you have a legitimate claim as heir to the English throne, but the person who is currently sitting on the throne views you as a threat? Do you really go over there and ask for help?!

Mary unfortunately for her was a victim of her times. It was Elizabeths moment and her destiny...and Mary (or anyone else in her place) was a side show and in the way. Its like Lady Jane Grey the moment was bigger than her.
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  #28  
Old 09-11-2009, 12:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vasillisos Markos View Post
I think that poses another great "what if" in history, doesn't it? I agree that the times were different back then and that Mary definitely posed a problem but I still admire her facing execution with some sense of majesty.
I think this sense of majesty came because of her deep faith and I bet she felt like a martyr and thought that divine justice would be on her side after her death.

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Could she have been a better Queen if raised in Scotland? Hard to say and I would think she probably would not have been as magnificent as Elizabeth but I think being raised in the French court definitely did not give her an advantage when she returned to Scotland.
Thats indeed an interesting question. I think if she was raised in Scotland she would have known a bit better about the scottish nobility and "how things worked" in Scotland.

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Furthermore, her strong Catholic beliefs worked against her as well. In a way, her situation could be compared to Mary I as far as many people being opposed to returning to the old ways.
Yes, I also would compare her situation just a bit with this of Mary I. Well, they bet on the wrong horse. I wouldn't call Mary Stuart silly but inept as Ioawabelle wrote plus naive, kind of weak and obsessed with power. But if I imagine that she came to Scotland in the age of 21 more or less as a foreigner the more respect I have for Queen Elizabeth I. for her strength and intelligence to manage these burdens of power and responsibility in an early age.

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The Tudors and their contemporaries were hardly advocates of human rights. As long as Mary persisted in her claim to the English throne and plotted with Elizabeth's many enemies, she was a danger not only to Elizabeth but to the stability of England. There wasn't much else IMO that could have been done with Mary.
Couldn't agree more.
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  #29  
Old 09-11-2009, 11:23 PM
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Elizabeth was incomparable and duly deserving of all the accolades heaped upon her. Indeed, when one considers the perils of her early life, it is almost unbelievable that Elizabeth emerged sane and in grasp of her faculties when she ascended the throne. She is an example of one who thrived and conquered despite the obstacles placed in her path. I think it is unlikely that Mary would have been a great, or even good, monarch even if she had not been spirited away to France at an early age. Mary was not made of the same "stuff" as Elizabeth.

But maybe by another form of measure Mary may still be considered victorious. It is Mary whose descendant currently occupies the Throne which the Queen of Scots unsuccessfully tried to claim during her own lifetime. So in the end it appears that while God bestowed great gifts on Elizabeth which enhanced England's prestige and bounty, He has also allowed Mary's bloodline to continue to grace throne and country.
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  #30  
Old 10-03-2009, 09:05 PM
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That's a good point. I guess in the end it worked out. Mary, Queen of Scots was a victim of her era, and of her own nature. She was defintely far less suited to be a ruler than Elizabeth, but she wasn't a bad person. She and Elizabeth actually never met, although Mary wanted it.In a different era though, even in far more enlightened times, I doubt she and Elizabeth would have been friends, just likely royal relatives indifferent to each other.
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  #31  
Old 07-26-2010, 11:20 PM
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Mary Queen of Scots

According to Antonia Fraser's book, Mary Queen of Scots "Despite the vivid sorrow of the French nation and an in spite of Mary's own desire to be buried in France, either at St Denis or Rheims, her wishes in this respect were never met." Let's not forget she was a widow of France's King, Queen dowager of France in her own right. So, the French could claim her too...
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Old 07-27-2010, 12:21 AM
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Hi,

Aren't there more important things to be doing in Scotland than worrying about dead queens?

I take it that James V is buried in Scotland, but where did Marie de Guise end up? I think she was buried back in France, but not too sure about that...

Larry
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  #33  
Old 07-27-2010, 09:58 PM
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Marie de Guise is buried in the Convent of Saint-Piere in Rheims, where her sister Renée was abbess. That is why Rheims was one of the two places in France chosen by Mary Stuart to be interred.
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Old 07-27-2010, 11:43 PM
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Hi Cmbruno,

Thank you for that information.
I wasn't sure if I'd actually read that before or not; but now am happy you've confirmed it!!

Cheers,
Larry
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  #35  
Old 07-28-2010, 10:57 AM
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I read somewhere~I can't think where, that there is now some question about Bothwell's remains actually being his. It would lead to some questions such as...what happened to him?
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  #36  
Old 07-28-2010, 11:49 AM
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All I know is that the pillar he was chained to while imprisoned at Dragsholm Castle shows a groove he allegedly made while circling the pillar. His mummified remains were on display in a nearby castle up until a few decades ago but they were never tested to determine whether the mummy was James Hepburn, 4th Earl of Bothwell.
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Old 07-28-2010, 12:00 PM
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What was done with Bothwell's remains now that they're no longer on display?
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  #38  
Old 07-28-2010, 12:06 PM
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Duchessmary,

According to an online article dated May 30, 2008, the remains are in a church in Faravejle and can be viewed on request. Here is a link.

Newstead novelist's plea for return of 'brave and patriotic' Bothwell. - Southern Reporter (Selkirk, Scotland) | HighBeam Research - FREE trial
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  #39  
Old 07-28-2010, 02:29 PM
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Thank you! I couldn't think of the name of the church.
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  #40  
Old 07-28-2010, 05:46 PM
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According to Antonia Fraser's book, Mary Queen of Scots "Despite the vivid sorrow of the French nation and an in spite of Mary's own desire to be buried in France, either at St Denis or Rheims, her wishes in this respect were never met." Let's not forget she was a widow of France's King, Queen dowager of France in her own right. So, the French could claim her too...
Not only was Mary(spitefully)denied the Sacraments and access to her confessor on the eve of her execution, her wishes regarding the disposition of her remains were also ignored.

The poor woman spent the last twenty years of her life trying to escape from England...I have always found it a painful irony that she is buried there.
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