US Presidents breaking protocal

[Gutsy]

Originally Posted by Iain

I'm not trying to get into "Bush bashing" but when he was in the Netherlands at a war cemetery he stood to attention with his hand on his heart looking straight ahead as the American national anthem was played , and then when the Dutch national anthem was played he stood with a stupid grin on his face looking all around him. That as very disrespectful to his hostess and her country.

If that is true....it is a sad breach of good manners and protocol. The practice of holding the hand over the heart is usually done only for the US Anthem however. Nonethless, if the President behaved as you describe during the playing of the "Wilhelmus" then he was wrong; and also somebody on his staff out to be responsibel for tutoring the Preseident if needed in these matters.

[Alexandria]

Originally Posted by Mascha

That is very disrespectful, but sometimes people do things when they are not aware that there are cameras focussed on them.. I am not a fan of Bush, but maybe he just doesn't know how to act in certain situations and if there isn't anybody who tells him these things he keeps on making stupid mistakes.

I think it's commonsense that when the national anthem of another country is played, whether you know the words or the actions performed when the anthem is being performed (i.e. hand over the heart for the American national anthem), you in the least stand with your hands at your side or clasped in front of you and either look straight ahead, at the audience/stage/flag, etc. or you bow your head. My 9-year-old goddaughter knows that -- nobody from the protocol committee had to advise her of that.

President Bush, who has no doubt heard hundreds of national anthems played in his first term as President should be well aware of common practice during these occasions. There is no excuse for him to be looking to and fro and grinning away at whomever or whatever.

[Mascha]

Originally Posted by Alexandria

I think it's commonsense that when the national anthem of another country is played, whether you know the words or the actions performed when the anthem is being performed (i.e. hand over the heart for the American national anthem), you in the least stand with your hands at your side or clasped in front of you and either look straight ahead, at the audience/stage/flag, etc. or you bow your head. My 9-year-old goddaughter knows that -- nobody from the protocol committee had to advise her of that.

President Bush, who has no doubt heard hundreds of national anthems played in his first term as President should be well aware of common practice during these occasions. There is no excuse for him to be looking to and fro and grinning away at whomever or whatever.

I wasn't making excuses for him (I would be the last one who would do that) But he doesn't seem so smart and that's why I thought that was the reason hence the at the end of my comment:) :)

[Dennism]

I read it on another board where several people commented on his actions. They also noted that he was a perfect gentleman to QEII. That may have something to do with the audience back home since many Americans seem to think that QEII is the monarch of all monarchs. But anyway it was not a big deal just something that people noticed.

[florawindsor]

last year i read in the newspaper that Bush broke several protocals when he visited England, i'm not sure if those reports are 100 percent real, but if it is, i think it's inappopriate for him to do so. yes, there's no tradition of bowing or curtsying in America, but as the old saying goes, while in rome, do as the romans do.if you are paying a visit to England you should respect their head of state. not bowing is ok cos you may think that is unnecessary, but such things like touching the back of QEII is definitely wrong and very impolite.

[Reina]

well maybe he was trying to seem personable. as one said b/f he has touched Queen Sofia (in a friendly way of course). I don't thnk he meant harm when he touched QEII.

And I don't think it is right for one to say that he does not seem that smart.

[Mandy]

Originally Posted by Reina

well maybe he was trying to seem personable. as one said b/f he has touched Queen Sofia (in a friendly way of course). I don't thnk he meant harm when he touched QEII.

And I don't think it is right for one to say that he does not seem that smart.

All members are entitled to their opnions whether or not you agree with them. Saying that somebody doesn't seem that smart is not a political statement. You have enjoyed the priviledge of calling certain people fools, amongst them Sven Hoiby. You have enjoyed the privilege of calling certain princesses boring amonsg them CP Mary of Denmark. I would say that the comments (he does not seem that smart) are mild in comparison to some of your own descriptive comments.

[susan alicia]

I did not see how Bush behaved in Holland. It is possible that he found the English pomp and circumstance more impressive than that of the Dutch Court. If it is true that he was not straighfaced during the dutch anthem it might be because he does not feel comfortable abroad. This is a man who had never visited europe untill he was in his forties or at least very late in his life. With his background, son of a former president you would think he would have jumped on a plane and go see Paris etc. But he -I think- basicly feels at home only in the US and does not want to go anywere else.

The Dutch were very hospitable to him, there was a programme on tv where they asked local farmers near the hotel where he was staying what they thought of all the security measures (the air above him had to flightfree etc) and the enormous costs (bill paid by the dutch) and in dialect, one man smiled sort of toothless and said "well if it is necessary that is what we must do"

Originally Posted by florawindsor

last year i read in the newspaper that Bush broke several protocals when he visited England, i'm not sure if those reports are 100 percent real, but if it is, i think it's inappopriate for him to do so. yes, there's no tradition of bowing or curtsying in America, but as the old saying goes, while in rome, do as the romans do.if you are paying a visit to England you should respect their head of state. not bowing is ok cos you may think that is unnecessary, but such things like touching the back of QEII is definitely wrong and very impolite.

[Marengo]

During his visit to Holland didn t he let the Queen waiting for 15 minutes in the rain? Together with the patting on the back & the disrespectfull way he listened to our national anthem one cannot say that he was very succesfull in our country.

[Dennism]

Yes, that was another thing that was mentioned. The standing in the rain.

[gogm]

I can say to Marengo that all of us here in the USA aren't as obtuse as our leader. :(

My apologies!

[Reina]

Geee Mandy how bitter you sound. Am I a bit too much for you? ANyway the difference b/t Sven Hoiby, Nicole the mother of Alexandre, and CP Mary is that they are not world leaders. Pres. Bush is the President of the US and consequently a world leader. Therefore I don't think it is right to say that he is not smart (and I interpreted that as saying that he is stupid). And that was not a mild statement. Nor was the insuations that ppl are making about the President. It takes alot to be in his position. I wish ppl would consider that.

Originally Posted by Mandy

All members are entitled to their opnions whether or not you agree with them. Saying that somebody doesn't seem that smart is not a political statement. You have enjoyed the priviledge of calling certain people fools, amongst them Sven Hoiby. You have enjoyed the privilege of calling certain princesses boring amonsg them CP Mary of Denmark. I would say that the comments (he does not seem that smart) are mild in comparison to some of your own descriptive comments.

[Genevieve]

Originally Posted by Reina

Geee Mandy how bitter you sound. Am I a bit too much for you? ANyway the difference b/t Sven Hoiby, Nicole the mother of Alexandre, and CP Mary is that they are not world leaders. Pres. Bush is the President of the US and consequently a world leader. Therefore I don't think it is right to say that he is not smart (and I interpreted that as saying that he is stupid). And that was not a mild statement. Nor was the insuations that ppl are making about the President. It takes alot to be in his position. I wish ppl would consider that.

Not all world leaders are in the position they are because they are smart or are a Rhodes Scholar. Consider royals: They are world leaders but they don't necessarily have to be smart to be King or Queen. They simply have to be born into the right family. Other world leaders in certain countries come into their position because of corruption (look at Ukraine recently before the re-election), and in other nations in the process of elections, they instill fear into their citizens so that their citizens will elect them and "protect" them from a non-existent thing they should've been scared about.

If we can be critical of royals, whether it's fo trivial reasons like how they dress or how they put their hair up, or for more serious matters such as how many engagements they carry out or whether they should've attended a certain event in honour of an individual or an event, then we can most certainly be critical of our elected leaders. If we are not critical of their actions then how can we enact change and improve our society?

[delineate]

*sigh*

Oh please...give me a break! I personally did not vote for Bush and do not need to apologize for doing so. It does not make me any less of an American.

As for the topic at hand...if American presidents can get away with just being respectful to foreign heads of state without all the ceremony, then fine. But if there's something they should do, or have been requested to do, they ought to do it.

[Fashionista100]

I do not know all the details of these supposed "rude behaviors." But Americans as a whole do not curtsey to royalty, do not bow our flag before others etc. It has to do with our historical origins and our revolution against Britian. No Monarch is considered superior and no special airs are granted that would not be granted another head of state. So QEII and Vladimir Putin are considered on the same plane by our heads of state. It is not to be rude, but to put people on equal footing. Many times placeing a hand on the back is a sign of friendship. As far as the national anthem goes I didn't see it so I'm not sure what he did. In the US you always put your hand over your heart when the national anthem plays, but not for other nations. It is a way of pledging your alligence to the United States. People should also realize that Americans tend to be more informal than many places (in general). I also think we have to remind ourselves that in the present climate of political differences things can be taken out of proportion.

[Reina]

I was not referring to the supposed incident of him not paying attention when the dutch anthem was played. I was just saying that it is not right to say that he is not smart. That is all.

[Mandy]

Originally Posted by Reina

Geee Mandy how bitter you sound. Am I a bit too much for you? .

Geee Reina, what kind of sound does the word "bitter" make? What part of my message did you hear? I thought that it was a written comment! I don't recall sending you a voice sample of my comment.

ANyway the difference b/t Sven Hoiby, Nicole the mother of Alexandre, and CP Mary is that they are not world leaders.

They are still human beings and no one needs to be called a fool. There are plenty of adjectives in the English vocabulary without having to resort to name calling whether or not one respect these individuals.

Pres. Bush is the President of the US and consequently a world leader.

We have just as much right to scrutinize his behaviour as that of the royals without delving into politics.

Therefore I don't think it is right to say that he is not smart (and I interpreted that as saying that he is stupid). And that was not a mild statement. Nor was the insuations that ppl are making about the President. It takes alot to be in his position. I wish ppl would consider that.

No one called President Bush "stupid", that is your assumption, just as you assumed that I was bitter. You say it youself: (and I interpreted that as saying that he is stupid). Therefore your accusations are unwarranted.

[Genevieve]

Originally Posted by Fashionista100

As far as the national anthem goes I didn't see it so I'm not sure what he did. In the US you always put your hand over your heart when the national anthem plays, but not for other nations. It is a way of pledging your alligence to the United States.

You can see what President Bush did in some of the pictures in the Queen Beatrix news thread.

It doesn't matter what Americans do when they hear the Star Spangled banner. What mattered, in this particular occasion, is that when the Dutch national anthem was being played, an anthem which I'm sure the Dutch people are as proud of as the Americans are of their anthem, instead of standing solemly, Bush was pictured and caught on video to be looking around, smiling, laughing and pointing at people (to who I don't know). It was disrespectful to his host and hostess (the Dutch PM and the Queen), the Dutch people on the whole, and the war veterans they were all there to honour.

Put the shoe on the other foot. What if Queen Beatrix was paying a visit to the White House? What if during the Star Spangled Banner, Queen Beatrix was playing with her tiara, was looking around the banquet room and waving to Dutch acquaintances and friends she hadn't seen in a long time, or making smiley faces at them? Americans would be in an uproar! It would be unaccptable, there would be a call for an apology from Queen Beatrix, even threats for her to abdicate!

Originally Posted by Fashionista100

People should also realize that Americans tend to be more informal than many places (in general).

Whether Americans are more informal than other nations is irrelevant. When Bush is hanging out with his family or his friends he can do whatever he wants. But when he is in his role and capacity as President of the United States, and representing the American citizens, shouldn't he show some level of respect for other nations and their leaders?

Originally Posted by Fashionista100

I also think we have to remind ourselves that in the present climate of political differences things can be taken out of proportion.

What is the present climate of political differences between the Netherlands and the U.S. anyway? We are not talking about political relations between the U.S. and Iraq. What has the Netherlands done lately to upset the U.S.? As far as I am aware, the relations between these two nations is nominal, much less of a relationship than the U.S. has with Mexico or Canada.

To put it simply: Bush was disrespectful during the Dutch national anthem in joking around at a time (only 2-3 minutes long is the anthem) when he should've show some respect by standing still. He could've been thinking in his head about his ranch in Crawford, about ribs or baseball for all I cared. He just should not have been grinning and pointing and laughing, just as Queen Beatrix did not do any of those things during the American national anthem. There should be no excuses made for Bush's actions.