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  #81  
Old 05-14-2016, 04:12 AM
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Norway newspaper calls for end of monarchy - The Local
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  #82  
Old 05-14-2016, 04:24 AM
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As I've said before: Scandals around Haakon and Mette-Marit in the past 3 years have weakened the monarchy's position in the Labour Party and the media, but as several experts says: There will never be any referendum as long as the King lives because that would mean political suicide, and probably not under Haakon's reign either. Because if Haakon and Mette-Marit stays away from trouble/scandals, then the monarchy will win by a large margin (propably by 70 to 80%) in a possible referendum.
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  #83  
Old 05-14-2016, 04:36 AM
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I think that it is a trend in Europe
Regularly you can hear or read those opinions in dutch papers or on the radio about monarchy in Holland
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  #84  
Old 05-14-2016, 04:44 AM
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Originally Posted by ROYAL NORWAY View Post
As I've said before: Scandals around Haakon and Mette-Marit in the past 3 years have weakened the monarchy's position in the Labour Party and the media, but as several experts says: There will never be any referendum as long as the King lives because that would mean political suicide, and probably not under Haakon's reign either. Because if Haakon and Mette-Marit stays away from trouble/scandals, then the monarchy will win by a large margin (propably by 70 to 80%) in a possible referendum.
Agree with you ROYAL NORWAY!! And you say the key word " if stays away from trouble/scandals"!!
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Old 05-14-2016, 04:50 AM
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I make no any illusion. I will see monarchies end in my lifetime. And when in a current monarchy a referendum has ended it, it will trigger similar referenda in other monarchies. No matter a referendum will be won or lost: it will cause the monarchy to become a topic of a heated discussion and then sharp-tongued debaters will clash with little-arguments-because-we-underestimate-the-whole-referendum-politicians and simply ask why Amalia von Amsberg, eh... pardon, "Van Oranje-Nassau" or the daughter of Daniel Westling from Örebrö have a birthright to sit an a throne and be the hereditary head-of-state.

Even in countries where -on the surface- monarchies seem to do well, one collapsing monarchy somewhere will cause all others to wobble on their foundations. This domino-effect is visible on all terrains: one monarchy (Sweden) changes the succession into a gender-neutral one. This is a trigger for almost all European monarchies to change their successions as well. One monarchy (Norway) sees a Heir marrying a fellow and non-blueblooded citizen, no backlash, and one by one all monarchies accept what was long considered as grave mésalliances. One state (the Netherlands) starts to accept same-gender marriages and the unthinkable happens: even Catholic states as Spain and Ireland allow same-gender formal relationships.

I think the first referendum will be in the usual "progressive" countries: Norway, Sweden, the Netherlands. The republicans do not need to win. When a monarchy wins with 56% pro and 44% against this is already close to the critical bottom because monarchies always claim "to be born by the people" and being "part of the identity of Norway, Sweden, Netherlands" etc. As we have seen in other referenda (Scotland, Catalonia) a close result only triggers for more and more referenda. My estimation is that the Netherlands will be the first to become a republic. Not because Willem-Alexander or Máxima are not popular, on the contrary...., but because the Dutch are lesser and lesser attached to the monarchy on itself. We see the same in Spain: it was more being a juancarlist than a royalist. In the Netherlands it is more about being an orangist than a royalist. Mark my words: only ONE modern monarchy needs to fall and all others will be questioned too.
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  #86  
Old 05-14-2016, 04:54 AM
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Even if they stay away from trouble/scandal I clearly see a trend in Europe where people are turning away from monarchy.
People are more and more critical about the fact that monarchy is hereditary
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  #87  
Old 05-14-2016, 04:55 AM
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Originally Posted by sjetajiem View Post
I think that it is a trend in Europe
Regularly you can hear or read those opinions in dutch papers or on the radio about monarchy in Holland
It is a trend.

An arrogant trend that has been around for many years in what we today label the cafe-latte segment or the "opinion-elite" if you like.
People who sit with their peers in the cafes in the larger cities and debate issues on a "high level" and who have a very inflated view of their own intellect (*) but whose experiences in life are often mostly founded very much on theory.
They sit and debate among themselves and agree on what is the right thing, which is not what the majority want, after all what do the ordinary people know?
That segment has a tendency to be heard, but it is my experience over and over again that they rarely represent the majority.

Another matter is that people tend to become more conservative as the become older, after all stability, a sense of history and traditions matters.

(*) The now late author Arthur C. Clarke came up with a wonderful definition of an intellectual: Someone who has been educated above his/her intelligence.
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  #88  
Old 05-14-2016, 05:24 AM
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Well I still have to become older and I am conservative by nature. You would then think: "Duc-et-Pair wants to maintain what is worth maintaining, after all that is the essence of being conservative".

But exactly there is the crux: are the present monarchies worth to maintain? The conservative in me was shocked to see that a divorced lady presenting the news was perfect for becoming Queen of Spain. The conservative in me was shocked to see that a Catholic Argentine with a dubious family was perfect to become Queen of the Netherlands. Or that even having a child out of wedlock by another gentleman was no any hindrance to become Norway's future Queen.

You state that as people become older, they tend to become more conservative. But exactly conservative royalists are maybe thr first ones to end it because what they see is more a royal vaudeville undermining everything a monarchy once stood for. The future Queen of Sweden falling in love with her fitness trainer. Result: the daugter of that fitness trainer is the heiress, conveniently renamed "Bernadotte" while her real Bernadotte uncle and cousin are shoved aside. Morale of the story: don't count too much on conservatives because my guess this is not what they once thought was the embodiment of national history, of values, of dignity, of prestige, worth fighting for.
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  #89  
Old 05-14-2016, 06:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
Well I still have to become older and I am conservative by nature. You would then think: "Duc-et-Pair wants to maintain what is worth maintaining, after all that is the essence of being conservative".

But exactly there is the crux: are the present monarchies worth to maintain? The conservative in me was shocked to see that a divorced lady presenting the news was perfect for becoming Queen of Spain. The conservative in me was shocked to see that a Catholic Argentine with a dubious family was perfect to become Queen of the Netherlands. Or that even having a child out of wedlock by another gentleman was no any hindrance to become Norway's future Queen.

You state that as people become older, they tend to become more conservative. But exactly conservative royalists are maybe thr first ones to end it because what they see is more a royal vaudeville undermining everything a monarchy once stood for. The future Queen of Sweden falling in love with her fitness trainer. Result: the daugter of that fitness trainer is the heiress, conveniently renamed "Bernadotte" while her real Bernadotte uncle and cousin are shoved aside. Morale of the story: don't count too much on conservatives because my guess this is not what they once thought was the embodiment of national history, of values, of dignity, of prestige, worth fighting for.
With your views you are rather an unicum
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  #90  
Old 05-14-2016, 06:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Muhler View Post
It is a trend.

An arrogant trend that has been around for many years in what we today label the cafe-latte segment or the "opinion-elite" if you like.
People who sit with their peers in the cafes in the larger cities and debate issues on a "high level" and who have a very inflated view of their own intellect (*) but whose experiences in life are often mostly founded very much on theory.
They sit and debate among themselves and agree on what is the right thing, which is not what the majority want, after all what do the ordinary people know?
That segment has a tendency to be heard, but it is my experience over and over again that they rarely represent the majority.

Another matter is that people tend to become more conservative as the become older, after all stability, a sense of history and traditions matters.

(*) The now late author Arthur C. Clarke came up with a wonderful definition of an intellectual: Someone who has been educated above his/her intelligence.
The so called intelligentia surely talks a lot about a republic, but the so called ordinary people are fed up with the costs of a monarchy f.e in terms of public security
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  #91  
Old 05-14-2016, 06:49 AM
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- I don't know. Those who are heard the loudest are always those who complain. In this case about costs.
But those (we/I) who are pretty pleased with things, even though there are always room for improvement, are seldom heard except in polls, because they (I) don't feel a need to dance up and down the streets in joy, or more likely have other priorities.

The monarchies will face a serious crisis in the years to come, I fear, but not because of the costs of maintaining them, but rather because of more ominous reasons. But that's an entirely different and political subject.



Conservative views are many things, Duc_et_pair. Your views are one example. I will not label myself a conservative, but in many ways I'm an arch-conservative.
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  #92  
Old 05-14-2016, 07:04 AM
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I so agree with what you say especially the bit you didn't say
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  #93  
Old 05-14-2016, 07:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ROYAL NORWAY View Post
As I've said before: Scandals around Haakon and Mette-Marit in the past 3 years have weakened the monarchy's position in the Labour Party and the media, but as several experts says: There will never be any referendum as long as the King lives because that would mean political suicide, and probably not under Haakon's reign either. Because if Haakon and Mette-Marit stays away from trouble/scandals, then the monarchy will win by a large margin (propably by 70 to 80%) in a possible referendum.
I was looking at the constitution of Norway, or rather an English translation thereof, and it says on constitutional amendments:

Quote:
§ 112 (1) Such amendment must never, however, contradict the principles embodied in this Constitution, but solely relate to modifications of particular provisions which do not alter the spirit of the Constitution, and such amendment requires that two thirds of the Parliament [Storting] agree thereto.


Considering that the monarchy is , without any doubt, a basic principle of the current constitution, can it be even legally abolished without altering the "spirit of the Constitution" in violation of the paragraph quoted above ?

In other words, my question, which is a rather technical one, is whether the constitution of Norway gives the Storting the authority under
§ 112 to propose and approve a constitutional amendment abolishing the monarchy.
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  #94  
Old 05-14-2016, 08:19 AM
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Originally Posted by sjetajiem View Post
With your views you are rather an unicum
I don't know. Aside from hiccups due to special events, monarchies are under pressure. Despite fitness-trainers, junta-daughters and newsreaders suddenly promoted to royal rank. Is this indeed what people want? A monarchy without distance? Your classmate being tomorrow's Queen?

It is under pressure by progressives. An it is under pressure by conservatives because this is has nothing to do with "royal family" anymore. It is a pure erosion from both sides ánd from within. With the Letizias, the Mette-Marits and then the not-royal-but-still-somewhere-royal Marius and the totally wiping the King away Máxima, I am not optimistic. They are the erosion within.
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  #95  
Old 05-14-2016, 08:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
I make no any illusion. I will see monarchies end in my lifetime. And when in a current monarchy a referendum has ended it, it will trigger similar referenda in other monarchies. No matter a referendum will be won or lost: it will cause the monarchy to become a topic of a heated discussion and then sharp-tongued debaters will clash with little-arguments-because-we-underestimate-the-whole-referendum-politicians and simply ask why Amalia von Amsberg, eh... pardon, "Van Oranje-Nassau" or the daughter of Daniel Westling from Örebrö have a birthright to sit an a throne and be the hereditary head-of-state.

Even in countries where -on the surface- monarchies seem to do well, one collapsing monarchy somewhere will cause all others to wobble on their foundations. This domino-effect is visible on all terrains: one monarchy (Sweden) changes the succession into a gender-neutral one. This is a trigger for almost all European monarchies to change their successions as well. One monarchy (Norway) sees a Heir marrying a fellow and non-blueblooded citizen, no backlash, and one by one all monarchies accept what was long considered as grave mésalliances. One state (the Netherlands) starts to accept same-gender marriages and the unthinkable happens: even Catholic states as Spain and Ireland allow same-gender formal relationships.

I think the first referendum will be in the usual "progressive" countries: Norway, Sweden, the Netherlands. The republicans do not need to win. When a monarchy wins with 56% pro and 44% against this is already close to the critical bottom because monarchies always claim "to be born by the people" and being "part of the identity of Norway, Sweden, Netherlands" etc. As we have seen in other referenda (Scotland, Catalonia) a close result only triggers for more and more referenda. My estimation is that the Netherlands will be the first to become a republic. Not because Willem-Alexander or Máxima are not popular, on the contrary...., but because the Dutch are lesser and lesser attached to the monarchy on itself. We see the same in Spain: it was more being a juancarlist than a royalist. In the Netherlands it is more about being an orangist than a royalist. Mark my words: only ONE modern monarchy needs to fall and all others will be questioned too.

The remaining European monarchies survived the so-called "Age of Revolution" (1774-1848), two World Wars in the 20th Century, and the Cold War and the rise of communism. I guess it would be far-fetched to conclude that they will fall now because the "future queen of Sweden married her personal fitness trainer" or because they have switched to equal primogeniture in the royal succession.

More so than 65 % popular support (which looks increasingly like the "new normal"), the greatest reassurance IMHO that the monarchy will survive for quite some time in the countries where it still exists is that the mainstream political parties, including the center-left ones, have a vested interest in preserving the status quo, which is a system that they know and does not threaten their own power and influence. If the King were to be replaced by an elected president, chances are that "the people" would demand or prefer a directly (i.e. popularly) elected Head of State. That would be a major change to the existing political system with the potential to alter significantly the balance of power between parliament, the government and the Head of State.

In fact, even if a purely ceremonial president were proposed, it would still be, in any case, a new and untested addition to the constitution that would cause politicians to be reluctant about it.
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  #96  
Old 05-14-2016, 08:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sjetajiem View Post
I think that it is a trend in Europe
Regularly you can hear or read those opinions in dutch papers or on the radio about monarchy in Holland
It has nothing to do with trends. In the UK we have the Guardian and until recently the Independent who for years have wanted a Republic. In Denmark they have Ekstra Bladet.

And there is a myth that most of the media in Sweden wants a Republic, but thats not true, because I don't think they are critical at all. And the King has gotten away with most of his scandals.

When it comes to Norway: we is that country out of these 4 who have most debate on the monarchy.

There were TV-debates about the monarchy constantly from 1998 until they were taken off the air due to financial problems in the media in 2010.

It flared up again in 2013 (this time in the newspapers) because of the so-called scandals surrounding Haakon and Mette-Marit and the fact that the experts started accusing them of interfering in politics. They are also criticized for being snobbish and that they should be more like the King and Queen.

But as I've said in my above post: Scandals around Haakon and Mette-Marit in the past 3 years have weakened the monarchy's position in the Labour Party and the media, but as several experts says: There will never be any referendum as long as the King lives because that would mean political suicide, and probably not under Haakon's reign either. Because if Haakon and Mette-Marit stays away from trouble/scandals, then the monarchy will win by a large margin (propably by 70 to 80%) in a possible referendum.

I can't speak for the Netherlands, Belgium and Spain, because I don't follow these monarchies, and I don't speak the languages. And that should be discussed in their respective threads and not here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sjetajiem View Post
Even if they stay away from trouble/scandal I clearly see a trend in Europe where people are turning away from monarchy.
People are more and more critical about the fact that monarchy is hereditary
You are wrong. We've had record high support for the UK and Danish monarchies in many polls for the last 4 years and some of the best polls for the monarchy in Norway (with the exception of a VG poll in 2014) for the last 10 years.

And most people will never replace a constitutional monarchy with an divisive president who will cost as much if not even more.

And please don't reply to my post, because I will never agree with you. But can I ask - are you from a country with a monarchy? Because everything of what you have written does not match with the facts.

And when it comes to Duc_et_Pair's comment:

You don't speak Danish, Norwegian or Swedish or do you? And as I and other have told you several times: If the Royals had lived as they did in the 50s and married each other, then the monarchies had been abolished long ago. And as most experts say, and as I am 110% sure of: The UK, Denmark and Norway (if Haakon and Mette-Marit stays away of trouble) will still be monarchies in 2100.

The same with Sweden (although the Swedish monarchy is not as strong as the monarchies mentioned above) and as I also have told you several times before: If the Spanish monarchy should be abolished, it will have notting to say for the UK, Denmark, Norway or Sweden.

And when it comes to me: I have a British Mother who live in the UK with her family and a Norwegian father who live in Norway with his family. I'm the opposite of conservative and supports the Labour Party both in the UK and Norway, and I was born in 1988.

I am big fan of my two monarch the Queen (Elizabeth II) and some of her family members, and King Harald and some of his family members. But I also suports the constitutional monarchy as an institution.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
In other words, my question, which is a rather technical one, is whether the constitution of Norway gives the Storting the authority under [/FONT]§ 112 to propose and approve a constitutional amendment abolishing the monarchy.
Experts disagree about that too, but the only party that wants a republic (the very small party SV which can be voted out of parliament in the election next year) agree with the other few politicians who support a republic that it should only be done with a referendum, but one expert who supports republic believes that the only way for Norway to become a republic is if the royal family go voluntarily because they can't bear the pressure any longer.

SV has campaigned for a republic since being formed in 1975. They even took it up for vote in Parliament on the day King Olav suffered a stroke in 1990.

They wants a committee who shall come up with how a republic/president should work and then have a referendum.

And to others posters here, it's only the Norwegian monarchy who shall be discussed in this thread.

If there are bad writing in my post, this is because I have difficulty reading what I writes due to dyslexia.
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  #97  
Old 05-14-2016, 08:55 AM
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And many people forget, the same arguments for abolishing monarchy come up every generation. Republicanism was rampant during Queen Victoria's reign. The chattering classes said the 'young people' won't stand for it any longer. It's not democratic etc.

Here we are celebrating Queen Elizabeth II's diamond jubilee.

I suspect the same arguments pop up from time to time in Norway, but that doesn't mean the country will become a republic
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  #98  
Old 05-14-2016, 08:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
Well I still have to become older and I am conservative by nature. You would then think: "Duc-et-Pair wants to maintain what is worth maintaining, after all that is the essence of being conservative".

But exactly there is the crux: are the present monarchies worth to maintain? The conservative in me was shocked to see that a divorced lady presenting the news was perfect for becoming Queen of Spain. The conservative in me was shocked to see that a Catholic Argentine with a dubious family was perfect to become Queen of the Netherlands. Or that even having a child out of wedlock by another gentleman was no any hindrance to become Norway's future Queen.

You state that as people become older, they tend to become more conservative. But exactly conservative royalists are maybe thr first ones to end it because what they see is more a royal vaudeville undermining everything a monarchy once stood for. The future Queen of Sweden falling in love with her fitness trainer. Result: the daugter of that fitness trainer is the heiress, conveniently renamed "Bernadotte" while her real Bernadotte uncle and cousin are shoved aside. Morale of the story: don't count too much on conservatives because my guess this is not what they once thought was the embodiment of national history, of values, of dignity, of prestige, worth fighting for.

Without these development you consider as "critical" to put it mildly, monarchies would have been seen much sooner and much harsher as "out of touch", "fallen out of time", an "anachronism" and so forth!
Only by ladies like the Queen of Sweden, the Queen of the Netherlands or the CPss of Demark (and, to name a Royal by birth and a man, Harry of Wales) to name a few, monarchys can keep their popularity these days.
The dutch King and Queen travel Germany every year (I guess until they´ve seen every federal country) and it is every time unbelievable how affectionate and enthusiastic the germans are towards the Queen and how many turn up to see mainly her, rather less to see him! Royal birth or not, it´s the personality that counts these days.
As much as I love and admire Queen Elizabeth, but I´m sure, if she´d be 27 today and performing the way we know her, a bit too dignified and distant, the monarchy in Britain had it´s share of problems today, too!
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Old 05-14-2016, 09:07 AM
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The remaining European monarchies survived the so-called "Age of Revolution" (1774-1848), two World Wars in the 20th Century, and the Cold War and the rise of communism. I guess it would be far-fetched to conclude that they will fall now because the "future queen of Sweden married her personal fitness trainer" or because they have switched to equal primogeniture in the royal succession.

[...]
These remaining European monarchies survived these revolutions, uproars, World Wars with royalborn spouses anyway. In Norway it were Princess Maud of Wales and Princess Märtha of Sweden. In Sweden it were Princess Viktoria von Baden, Princess Margaret of Counnaught, Princess Sibylla von Sachsen-Coburg und Gotha. Apparently their darkblue-blooded descent was no hindrance for the survival of the monarchies in Norway and Sweden.
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  #100  
Old 05-14-2016, 09:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
I don't know. Aside from hiccups due to special events, monarchies are under pressure. Despite fitness-trainers, junta-daughters and newsreaders suddenly promoted to royal rank. Is this indeed what people want? A monarchy without distance? Your classmate being tomorrow's Queen?

It is under pressure by progressives. An it is under pressure by conservatives because this is has nothing to do with "royal family" anymore. It is a pure erosion from both sides ánd from within. With the Letizias, the Mette-Marits and then the not-royal-but-still-somewhere-royal Marius and the totally wiping the King away Máxima, I am not optimistic. They are the erosion within.
It is the height of pomposity to denounce current European monarchies, because heirs to the thrones have been allowed to marry the person they love, and not someone chosen for them, for geo-political and/or dynastic grounds. It is beyond arrogant to claim that monarchies have no future, because of the entry of what you describe as lower-class plebs and social climbers, without taking a look beyond that extremely rare view and into the societies themselves, to see what's actually stirring. When reading your very condescending descriptions of individual royalty, and many monarchies in different threads in here, I am often brought to think of the saying 'with friends like these, who needs enemies?'.

In Norway, several newspapers have always been republican, and the Socialist Party and a large group of people in the Labour Party have always been republicans. That has largely had no effect on the support for the monarchy, as that is a function of the masses, and they are consistently conservative on these issues, by the maxim: 'if it ain't broke..'
As has been pointed out before, at the entry of the Crown Princess into the RF, there was naturally much scepticism, but I must add, none of it as derogatory as yours, and she won the hearts of most through her demeanour in the years that followed. The same has certainly happened in both Sweden and the Netherlands, where the consorts are both popular and respected.

I make no illusions about the monarchy as an institution. It is seen by many in todays world as undemocratic and difficult to defend, but that is all the more reason for those of us who truly believe in the monarchy as an institution, to shine a light on its advantages and accept some of the inevitable change that the passage of time demands. Unless something cataclysmic takes place, like Hereditary Princess Ingrid deciding to relinquish her rights to the throne, I see nothing that can shake the Norwegian monarchy to the extent that it will fall, as Norwegians are very proud of their Royal Family, mishaps, consorts, debates about costs and all.

Existing monarchies in Europe have not survived because of their blue blood and intransigence. They have survived because they have made the right choices in times of crisis, ensuring that they have had the popular support needed to continue to reign. As with any institution in a functioning democracy, the monarchy has to be relevant, connected and just distant enough for people to accept. That is a hard enough balance to maintain, without those claiming to support it, adding to the strains it will always face, in the world of instant media and 24/7 scrutiny we live in today.
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