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  #181  
Old 08-29-2011, 02:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Lumutqueen View Post
Caroline is currently styled, Her Royal Highness The Princess of Hanover, Hereditary Princess of Monaco.

Before her father's death she was, Her Royal Highness The Princess of Hanover, Princess of Monaco.

Before her marriage to EA she was, Her Serene Highness Princess Caroline of Monaco.
Thank you. Now, I think I get it. Caroline is a princess and therefore styled with her own as far as Monaco is concerned but she is not a princess in her own right in the Royal House of Hanover nor in Great Britain where her husband also has strong royal ties. Therefore in those instances she is not and cannot be styled as Princess Carloline.
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  #182  
Old 08-29-2011, 02:10 PM
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Originally Posted by American Observer7 View Post
Thank you. Now, I think I get it. Caroline is a princess and therefore styled with her own as far as Monaco is concerned but she is not a princess in her own right in the Royal House of Hanover nor in Great Britain where her husband also has strong royal ties. Therefore in those instances she is not and cannot be styled as Princess Carloline.
She has nothing to do with the UK, ties or no ties. EA had to ask permission from The Queen to marry due to some age old law.

She can be called and styled Princess Caroline. For both Hanover and Monaco. Hanover don't use the same system as the UK, if that's what you're thinking.
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  #183  
Old 08-29-2011, 03:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Lumutqueen View Post
She has nothing to do with the UK, ties or no ties. EA had to ask permission from The Queen to marry due to some age old law.

She can be called and styled Princess Caroline. For both Hanover and Monaco. Hanover don't use the same system as the UK, if that's what you're thinking.
There has got to be something to what I am thinking because from what I just read, EA's first wife, Chantal was styled as HRH Princess Ernest August of Hanover and this was before his father died and he became head of the Royal House of Hanover. Caroline is not a Hanoverean princess by blood and that explains it and Monaco's palace page reads, H.R.H. The Princess of Hanover not HRH Princess Caroline of Hanover.
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  #184  
Old 08-29-2011, 03:24 PM
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Originally Posted by American Observer7 View Post
There has got to be something to what I am thinking because from what I just read, EA's first wife, Chantal was styled as HRH Princess Ernest August of Hanover and this was before his father died and he became head of the Royal House of Hanover. Caroline is not a Hanoverean princess by blood and that explains it and Monaco's palace page reads, H.R.H. The Princess of Hanover not HRH Princess Caroline of Hanover.
Just because she's not a hanoverean princess by blood does not mean she cannot be styled Princess Caroline of Hanover. CP Mary is not Danish by blood but she's Crown Princess Mary. Charlene is known as Princess Charlene but no serene blood runs through her veins. If you click on the biog of Caroline, you'll notice she is referred to as Princess Caroline.

I believe she's known as HRH The Princess Caroline of Hanover, Hereditary Princess of Monaco.
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  #185  
Old 08-29-2011, 03:43 PM
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Originally Posted by American Observer7 View Post
There has got to be something to what I am thinking because from what I just read, EA's first wife, Chantal was styled as HRH Princess Ernest August of Hanover and this was before his father died and he became head of the Royal House of Hanover. Caroline is not a Hanoverean princess by blood and that explains it and Monaco's palace page reads, H.R.H. The Princess of Hanover not HRH Princess Caroline of Hanover.

She's The Princess of Hanover only because that supersedes a Princess (name) of Hanover title. Charlene is actually The Princess of Monaco as she is the wife of the reigning Prince but as she is a princess in her own right in Monaco, she can correctly be addressed as Princess Charlene as well.
If Caroline had married Ernst-August before he became head of the house, she would have been Princess Caroline of Hanover as she was born royal.
Lumutqueen is correct in saying that the UK way of styling has no bearing on any other country, even if there was once a close relation.

I asked the same question on another royal board and this was the reply and I agree with it 100%. This is from the owner of that board who is from GB:

When she married, her primary style and title became that of Royal Highness and Princess of Hanover - although she did not have to give up her title as Princess of Monaco she none the less must not use it over her style and title through marriage.

Therefore her official title now is H.R.H. The Princess of Hanover, Hereditary Princess of Monaco. - overseas, even though she might be representing Monaco, her title will remain the same.

In regards to Charlene, her title will never include her name, as she is titled as such by marriage and not by birth, therefore her title will always be H.S.H. The Princess of Monaco - not H.S.H. Princess Charlene of Monaco, etc etc... Only Princesses of the Royal blood can put their names in their titles.
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  #186  
Old 08-29-2011, 04:12 PM
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Originally Posted by American Observer7 View Post
Only Princesses of the Royal blood can put their names in their titles.[/I]
Well there are numerous examples of this not being true,
Crown Princess Mary of Denmark.
Princess Marie of Denmark.
Previously: Princess Alexandra of Denmark.
Crown Princess Mette-Marit of Norway.
Crown Princess Mathilde of Belgium.
Princess Claire of Belgium.
Crown Princess Maxima
Princess Mabel
Princess Laurentien
Princess Marilene
Princess Anita
Princess Annette
Princess Aimee.

I could go on, we've been told we can call Charlene, Princess Charlene. So Caroline seems to fit the same process.
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  #187  
Old 08-29-2011, 04:50 PM
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Its a case of different strokes for different folks or in this case countries.
In the UK a woman who marries into the royal family takes the female version of her husbands title, i.e. HRH the Countess of Wessex or HRH The Princess of Wales (not Princess Sophie or Princess Diana). This would apply even if the woman was born royal as with the case of HRH Princess Marina of Greece and Denmark who became HRH the Duchess of Kent and then when her son married she applied to the Queen to be able to call herself HRH Princess Marina, Duchess of Kent. This was not an acknowledgement of her Greek titles as they do not apply in the UK.It was a courtesy granted by the Queen, as she later did for Princess Alice Duchess of Gloucester. If a British male royal does not have a peerage then his wife becomes, for example HRH Princess Michael of Kent. This practice came to the UK from Hanover.
EA was not required to apply for the Queens permission under the Royal Marriages Act but did so because that is the tradition of his house. Caroline is called socially HRH The Princess of Hanover because that is his title, having succeeded hs father. The usage of the Hanover titles is of course a courtesy since Germany has been a republic for nearly 100 yrs and German titles are now part of ones surname (EA Prinz von Hanover)
Carolines only real legal title would be as a princess of Monaco since it is an existing monarchy, but socially and by courtesy Monaco & other reigning families recognizes EA titles and thus as his wife she is also HRH The Princess of Hanover and until Albert has a legitimate heir she is also Hereditary Princess of Monaco.
Charlene is titled HSH The Princess Consort of Monaco, but I believe the palace has stated at the time of the marriage that she can be called Princess Charlene. The same with Princess Grace.
In other countries a woman marrying into the royal family may become a princess using their own name such as Mary and Marie of Denmark. In The Netherlands only Maxima has officially been created a princess in her own right by letters patent, the other ladies are only princess by courtesy.
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  #188  
Old 08-29-2011, 05:52 PM
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I stand by my most recent post. Each will see it as they see if but what apply in Britain applies in Monaco and in the Royal House of Hanover. That said there are three princesses of royal blood thus given the privledge of being styled by their own name as a Princess, Caroline, Alexandra and Stephanie.

And Prince Ernest August full type is recognized in Germany. He and his wife have attended official functions with Germany's head of state and Queen Elizabeth II was in attendance and at the Queen Mother's furneral. Princes Ernest and his wife were listed with their full titles and seat with other royals. So, it is not just by curtsey but protocol as well.
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  #189  
Old 08-29-2011, 06:06 PM
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In Germany, by law, titles are only part of your surname since all titles were abolished in 1918 when Germany became a republic. You are not HRH The Prince Hanover you are Ernst August Prinz Von Hanover. Socially you may be called HRH The Prince of Hanover but your German passport would say differently. You can see at this weekends past wedding in Postdam the minister said Freidrich Georg Prinz Von Preussen and Sophie Prinzessen Vob Isenberg when he was perforning the wedding as those are their legal names.
Other courts may see fit to still recognize your titles as they see fit, and your own court can certainly title you as they wish. In Spain for instance Louis Alphonso de Bourbon has no title but elsewhere he calls himself HRH The Duke of Anjou. Juan Carlos does not recognize this title but some do. He was invited to Alberts wedding as Duke of Anjou.
Caroline, Stephanie and Alexandra are all of course princesses by birth, Caroline and Stephanie as daughters of the Sovereign Prince of Monaco and Alexandra as the daughter of Ernst August Prinz Von Hanover.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Princes...nover_(b._1999)
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  #190  
Old 08-29-2011, 06:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Lumutqueen View Post
Possible because the House of Hanover, outranks the House of Grimaldi.
How can a deposed House rank above ANY reigning House?
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  #191  
Old 08-29-2011, 06:53 PM
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How can a deposed House rank above ANY reigning House?
They don't
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  #192  
Old 08-29-2011, 07:02 PM
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The "old age" law that required that Ernst to ask permission before marrying Caroline, is a law that is used for British heirs today, also known as the Royal Marriages Act of 1772. So everyone uses it including most recently Peter Phillips, Prince William of Wales and Zara Phillips.

According to wikipedia:

Since he was born in the male-line of George II of Great Britain he is bound by the Royal Marriages Act 1772. Thus, before his marriage to Princess Caroline, he officially requested permission to marry of Queen Elizabeth II, and on 11 January 1999, the afore-mentioned sovereign issued an Order-in-Council, "My Lords, I do hereby declare My Consent to a Contract of Matrimony between His Royal Highness Prince Ernst August Albert of Hanover, Duke of Brunswick-Luneburg and Her Serene Highness Princess Caroline Louise Marguerite of Monaco..." Without the Royal Assent, the marriage would have been void in Britain where his family owns property and his lawful descendants remain in succession to both the British crown and the two suspended peerages.

The suspended peerages being the Dukedom of Cumberland and Teviotdale and the Earldom of Armagh. I would imagine that his seeking permission wouldn't have not impacted his sons but rather his unborn child, which turned out to be Alexandra. And she has no rights to the title.
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  #193  
Old 08-29-2011, 07:11 PM
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EA's former remote Britsh succession rights were through his descent from a British Princess who married abroad (Victoria, Empress Frederick). Under the Royal Marriages Act descendents of princesses who married abroad as exempt from the RMA and do not have to ask the British monarch for permission to marry. Can you imaging Haakon of Norway or Victoria of Sweden having to ask QE2 for permission. The Hanovers don't have to either but they continue to do so.......
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  #194  
Old 08-29-2011, 07:34 PM
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If I recall correctly, without looking at the British threads. Descendants of British Princesses who marry into foreign houses, are exempt from the law.

Thus royal families of Norway (via Princess Maud of Wales) and Sweden (via Princess Margaret of Connaught) don't have to seek permission from the Queen.

But that is the topic of another thread in a different forum (British).
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  #195  
Old 08-29-2011, 08:03 PM
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If I recall correctly, without looking at the British threads. Descendants of British Princesses who marry into foreign houses, are exempt from the law.

Thus royal families of Norway (via Princess Maud of Wales) and Sweden (via Princess Margaret of Connaught) don't have to seek permission from the Queen.

But that is the topic of another thread in a different forum (British).
That was actually my point and the same applies to EA. He didnt have to apply for permission but it is a tradition in his family that they do so. You are right though, the RMA is a discussion meant for the British board.
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  #196  
Old 08-29-2011, 08:22 PM
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But he actually did. Not because of his descent from Viktoria Luise of Prussia but because of his descent from his father.

George III > Ernest August > Ernest August II > Ernest III>Ernst August IV > Ernst August V

Like many royals he is descended multiple times from certain royals.

And so to bring it back to Monaco, and the law, and the property and the subject of this thread is why he asked the Queen's permission to marry.
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  #197  
Old 08-29-2011, 08:43 PM
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But he actually did. Not because of his descent from Viktoria Luise of Prussia but because of his descent from his father.

George III > Ernest August > Ernest August II > Ernest III>Ernst August IV > Ernst August V

Like many royals he is descended multiple times from certain royals.

And so to bring it back to Monaco, and the law, and the property and the subject of this thread is why he asked the Queen's permission to marry.
EA3 married Victoria Luise of Prussia, daughter of Victoria Empress Frederick daughter of Queen Victoria. This is his closest line of descent from a British monarch and resulted in his remote place in the line of succession until his marriage. Yes, he is also a descended from earlier monarchs but that could be said of anyone in the line of succession. The point, lost somewhere in this discussion, is that he was not required under the RMA to ask for permission to marry. That he did so is not in dispute. It is however a tradition in his family to continue to ask for permission, unlike other German families such as Leiningen, Saxe Coburg Gotha, Hohenlohe Langenberg, Prussia etc all of whom also have places in the line of succession to the throne in UK.

Anyway....back to Monaco and those always interesting Grimaldis....
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  #198  
Old 08-29-2011, 08:59 PM
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Originally Posted by NGalitzine View Post
In Germany, by law, titles are only part of your surname since all titles were abolished in 1918 when Germany became a republic. You are not HRH The Prince Hanover you are Ernst August Prinz Von Hanover. Socially you may be called HRH The Prince of Hanover but your German passport would say differently. You can see at this weekends past wedding in Postdam the minister said Freidrich Georg Prinz Von Preussen and Sophie Prinzessen Vob Isenberg when he was perforning the wedding as those are their legal names.
Other courts may see fit to still recognize your titles as they see fit, and your own court can certainly title you as they wish. In Spain for instance Louis Alphonso de Bourbon has no title but elsewhere he calls himself HRH The Duke of Anjou. Juan Carlos does not recognize this title but some do. He was invited to Alberts wedding as Duke of Anjou.
Caroline, Stephanie and Alexandra are all of course princesses by birth, Caroline and Stephanie as daughters of the Sovereign Prince of Monaco and Alexandra as the daughter of Ernst August Prinz Von Hanover.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Princess_Alexandra_of_Hanover_(b._1999)
NGalitzine, I couldn't care less about Germany, it's history etc or what wikipedia has to say about this. EA uses it and it IS recognized and it is official in Monaco where Princess Caroline and Princess Alexandra happen to live and that is good enough for me!
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  #199  
Old 08-30-2011, 04:12 AM
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Originally Posted by NGalitzine View Post
In Germany, by law, titles are only part of your surname since all titles were abolished in 1918 when Germany became a republic. You are not HRH The Prince Hanover you are Ernst August Prinz Von Hanover. Socially you may be called HRH The Prince of Hanover but your German passport would say differently. You can see at this weekends past wedding in Postdam the minister said Freidrich Georg Prinz Von Preussen and Sophie Prinzessen Vob Isenberg when he was perforning the wedding as those are their legal names.
Other courts may see fit to still recognize your titles as they see fit, and your own court can certainly title you as they wish. In Spain for instance Louis Alphonso de Bourbon has no title but elsewhere he calls himself HRH The Duke of Anjou. Juan Carlos does not recognize this title but some do. He was invited to Alberts wedding as Duke of Anjou.
Caroline, Stephanie and Alexandra are all of course princesses by birth, Caroline and Stephanie as daughters of the Sovereign Prince of Monaco and Alexandra as the daughter of Ernst August Prinz Von Hanover.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Princes...nover_(b._1999)
Now that I didn't know - so he's not actually a Prince? It's just a surname and he uses the HRH for social reasons?
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  #200  
Old 08-30-2011, 09:47 AM
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If he was not a prince, his wife and daughter would not be using the title officially in Monaco. He is a Prince and he is the head of a Royal House and direct decendant of one of the King Georges. They were invited to the Queen Mother's furneral which was an official event in which their officials were used and their other non reigning royals were in attendence wearing their royal titles.
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