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  #1441  
Old 05-30-2013, 09:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Roslyn View Post
I think part of the problem is that different people have different views about what is a good outcome. For some, the fact that a person who currently exists on life support in a coma may recover to the extent they can breathe on their own and be able to swallow pureed food fed to them by others, and can smile and groan at random, perhaps be able to respond to painful stimulii, but not be able to communicate otherwise and cannot recognise relatives, is a good outcome and one worth aiming for.

I am not definitely not in that camp. I consider that a person in a vegetative state has no quality of life, and I would not want to be forced to exist like that and would not condemn anyone for whom I had the responsibility to exist like that.

Of course if the person who is in the vegetative state is not on life support equipment there's nothing to turn off, so you have to rely on natural causes. So all you can do is issue a DNR direction and hope for pneumonia, so don't give permission for them to be given flu injections.
You are right. To live in a nether world is cruel. But, since, he is not my son or husband, it is not my choice. And, yes, if he is not on life support, there is little one can do, IMHO. They must follow their instincts and do what makes them feel better.
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  #1442  
Old 05-31-2013, 08:33 AM
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Originally Posted by COUNTESS View Post
You are right. To live in a nether world is cruel. But, since, he is not my son or husband, it is not my choice. And, yes, if he is not on life support, there is little one can do, IMHO. They must follow their instincts and do what makes them feel better.
True, but there have been cases where people have been left in that sort of limbo for decades. (Remember Karen Quinlan?)
Horrible!
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  #1443  
Old 05-31-2013, 09:14 AM
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Originally Posted by XeniaCasaraghi View Post
Why wouldn't it be enough? I thought if u had on that was the end, nobody could go against it.
My brother had a DNR (Do Not Resusitate) directive in his living will. But when he had a massive heart attack while working out at a gym, no one there knew it. He was clinically dead, but brought back after being worked on by personnel and paramedics for 25 minutes. After five days on life support in the hospital, the doctors said there was nothing more they could do, and he was taken off life support and was gone in just a few hours. So yes, sometimes a living will and a DNR directive are worthless. They're worthless if people don't know you have them. The only alternative is to give a copy to everyone you know, everywhere you go, and every hospital and doctor that might have the opportunity to treat you.
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  #1444  
Old 05-31-2013, 09:21 AM
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I cannot imagine being in the shoes of the DRF.

My prayers are still with them re Prince Friso.

Another alternative to carrying around/giving out your DNR instructions might be to wear, perhaps, a med-alert pendant/bracelet indicating your DNR wish, maybe?

Just a thought.
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  #1445  
Old 05-31-2013, 10:11 AM
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I suppose one could do that, but wouldn't it feel a little macabre?
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  #1446  
Old 05-31-2013, 11:01 AM
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Originally Posted by cinrit View Post
I suppose one could do that, but wouldn't it feel a little macabre?
Sure, it absolutely could seem and feel like that!

But, cinrit, in reading about what you said happened with your brother (I'm so sorry about that, by the way.), the thought just occurred to me.

Because, realistically, even though you COULD have DNR orders from one end of the country to the other, ANYTHING could happen, and they might not be discovered and never be honored, for that reason.

At least, if the person in trouble were wearing some sort of ID that expressed their wishes, there'd be SOME solid chance that those wishes would be followed.

NOT a guarantee, mind you (people ARE human, after all), just a CHANCE.

Speaking strictly for myself, I personally think I'd feel OK about opting to wear DNR ID, rather than not having my resuscitation wishes known or even considered at all, if I were comatose and no one that knew what I wanted was around to speak up on my behalf in that regard.

Just a thought.
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  #1447  
Old 05-31-2013, 02:09 PM
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Having just gone thru this recently with my older brother, 1st responders HAVE to assist you. The DNR comes into play ast the hospital. The doctors are the only ones that can officially declare you clinically brain dead, and even then it takes 2 different doctors, from 2 different specialties, doing 2 seperate test to find out if there is any brain activity. If there is the slightest brain activity, they can not declare you clinically brain dead and will give the choice to the family whether to remain on the life support or go by the DNR and remove the ventilator. But this is only AFTER all test have been done to find out about brain activity.
My brother had just turned 51 on a sunday. on Tues night, he had a massive stroke, but was still able to communicate. By Weds morning, the stroke had killed off 70% of his brain and was still swelling.This s when they put him on the ventilator to do the surgery. They did surgery and removed half his skull. They did hypothermia to see if they could bring down some of the swelling, but it did not work. Even if it had, the vast majority of his brain was dead and he would never recover. He did not have a DNR and we all decided to take him off the ventilator and he breathed on his own for an entire day before he passed. The only part of his brain that was working was the part that sends signals for "reflexes" and breathing was part of this. So they could possibly take Friso off the ventilator and he could surive for a long time. He could pass in minutes. It all comes down to how much damage was actually done and what % of his brain is actually dead. Oh and it also depends on what side of his brain the damage was done to. The brain is very unforgiving when it has encountered any kind of damage. And with Friso not having oxygen for any length of time, be it short or long, part of his brain is dead. It dies off very quickly due to oxygen and blood supply loss.
as for my opinion, they should take him off the ventilator and let his body/brain do what it wants. In the end, it is his decision after all, if one can look at it that way.
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  #1448  
Old 05-31-2013, 02:19 PM
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God Bless you sesa, I am so sorry for your loss. You are right about what you write and Friso could be removed from a ventilator and still live on in limbo. That is, exactly, what happened to Karen Quinlin. They argued and won a court order to remove her from the ventilator, presuming she would died shortly afterwards. She lived for another, 9 years, I believe. Life can be cruel.
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  #1449  
Old 05-31-2013, 02:35 PM
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Sesa, I am sorry to hear your sad news.

These decisions are terrible ones for the family, DNR or no DNR.
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  #1450  
Old 05-31-2013, 03:18 PM
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Here's the thing, if you go back and look at the original articles, the doctors said it could take up to six months for there to be any improvement. It has now been over a year, and he is still on life support. All the articles talk about 'Massive brain damage'.
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  #1451  
Old 05-31-2013, 03:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sesa View Post
Having just gone thru this recently with my older brother, 1st responders HAVE to assist you. The DNR comes into play ast the hospital. The doctors are the only ones that can officially declare you clinically brain dead, and even then it takes 2 different doctors, from 2 different specialties, doing 2 seperate test to find out if there is any brain activity. If there is the slightest brain activity, they can not declare you clinically brain dead and will give the choice to the family whether to remain on the life support or go by the DNR and remove the ventilator. But this is only AFTER all test have been done to find out about brain activity.
My brother had just turned 51 on a sunday. on Tues night, he had a massive stroke, but was still able to communicate. By Weds morning, the stroke had killed off 70% of his brain and was still swelling.This s when they put him on the ventilator to do the surgery. They did surgery and removed half his skull. They did hypothermia to see if they could bring down some of the swelling, but it did not work. Even if it had, the vast majority of his brain was dead and he would never recover. He did not have a DNR and we all decided to take him off the ventilator and he breathed on his own for an entire day before he passed. The only part of his brain that was working was the part that sends signals for "reflexes" and breathing was part of this. So they could possibly take Friso off the ventilator and he could surive for a long time. He could pass in minutes. It all comes down to how much damage was actually done and what % of his brain is actually dead. Oh and it also depends on what side of his brain the damage was done to. The brain is very unforgiving when it has encountered any kind of damage. And with Friso not having oxygen for any length of time, be it short or long, part of his brain is dead. It dies off very quickly due to oxygen and blood supply loss.
as for my opinion, they should take him off the ventilator and let his body/brain do what it wants. In the end, it is his decision after all, if one can look at it that way.
sesa . . .

First, please accept my heartfelt condolences on your brother's loss. I am so, very, very sorry, and my prayers are with you.

Secondly, thank you for the deeply moving and personal info you shared about what the specific parameters are regarding DNR, what the role of a first responder is on scene, and the roles the doctors play once the individual has arrived at the hospital.

One of the reasons I enjoy coming on boards is that there is always the opportunity to learn something, and I very much appreciate your opening yourself up by sharing your personal experience in order to educate myself and others about this.

Now that I have this knowledge, I will pass it along. Because regardless of anything we might want to have happen in a situation, any written directives, or so on, that we have in place, nothing is ever certain, and good information needs to be shared.

Like COUNTESS, I remember the Karen Quinlan situation. That her family obtained a court order and she was taken off the machines, yet lingered in limbo for years until she gave up fighting.

I cannot even begin to imagine or fathom what it must have been like to have been a member of her immediate family. Or to be a member of the Dutch royal family, now.

My heart goes out to all of them, too.

I can tell you that I share your opinion that if Friso was a member of my family, I would want him removed from the vent. Whenever his passing happened, the way I look at it, that is when it was meant to happen.

And so be it.

Until that time, I would not want him to be artificially maintained.

Thank you again, sesa.
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  #1452  
Old 05-31-2013, 04:27 PM
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you guys are so sweet. Thank you for the kind words. What makes it even worse is that he passed away 19 yrs to the date of my other brother! So now at 47 I am an only child and have a major hole in my heart. I feel as if I lost part of my body! And I am just a sister. I can only imagine what Friso's mother is feeling, but she has to abide by what Mabel wants, since she is his wife. That is a tug of war that has to be very hard on a person. One may want something and the other may want something totally different, but the mother can not do a single thing about the situation because she is only the mother. I know that seeing my mother go thru this, it was a very difficult situation. I learned soooo much from this, so in a way, I'm happy, and I know know how to deal with things in the future and what needs to be done now to help prepare for the future. My brother's were 29 and 51 when they passed, so it just shows that you need to be prepared no matter the age. I've also learned a great deal about being a "organ donor" so if anybody wants information on that, please let me know and I will give you my personal email. For example: did you know that there is 2 types of organ donation??? I didn't. I thought once you donate, that's it. they take everything. Nope. not the case!
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  #1453  
Old 05-31-2013, 08:07 PM
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Sorry to hear of you're lost sesa.

Wouldn't you think that Prince Friso given that he's married and has children would have discussed with someone, wife, family, friend, lawyer, doctor, etc what his wishes would be medically if he ended up in a coma for a long period of time or was unable to make decisions for himself? You would think this would be written down somewhere. Morbid topic to think about but you never know what is going to happen in the future.

Sometimes family members have overridden their family's wishes in hopes that the person would mostly recover or recover enough that they would have some quality of life. Sometimes they are lucky and this happens. Other times it doesn't. I don't know if this was the case in this situation. I would think what the person wanted, said or had written down would be given a lot of weight.

This thought entered my mind when I read all these different posts. Up until now, this had never entered my thought.
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  #1454  
Old 05-31-2013, 08:31 PM
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Frankly, I think, he never thought of these circumstances, as he is young. Many young people do not see this type of event in their lives. Who or whom, have fought for the chance, they think may come, I do not know. I, also, do not know, how I would think or feel and unless, like Dear sensa. We haven't even explored these situations. Never say I would do, if you have not lived in this shadow.
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  #1455  
Old 07-09-2013, 09:20 AM
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The Dutch media just wrote that prince Friso arrived at Huis Den Bosch (where princess Beatrix lives) today.
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  #1456  
Old 07-09-2013, 09:27 AM
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From the Dutch Royal Website: -

Prince Friso leaves Wellington Hospital

On behalf of the Royal Family, the Government Information Service wishes to issue the following communiqué.
Prince Friso was discharged from the Wellington Hospital (London) today.
Prince Friso remains in a state of minimal consciousness. While his health situation continues to be of concern, the Prince no longer needs hospital care. Over the coming months, all available options to provide him with the required long-term care and nursing- in the Netherlands or the United Kingdom - will be evaluated in consultation with experts.
Prince Friso will spend this summer with his family at Palace Huis te Bosch in The Hague, where a medical team - led by Prof. Jan van Gijn and Dr. Michael Kuiper - will be entrusted with his care. He arrived there today.
The Royal family wholeheartedly thanks the medical team of the Wellington hospital for their excellent and devoted care.
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  #1457  
Old 07-09-2013, 09:28 AM
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The news is confirmed by the Royal Court:

"Prince Friso has left the Wellington Hospital (London) today. Prince Friso remains unchanged in a state of minimal consciousness....This summer, Prince Friso and his family spend at Huis ten Bosch Palace....He arrived there today."

Prins Friso uit Wellington Ziekenhuis - Het Koninklijk Huis

From NOS: http://nos.nl/koningshuis/artikel/52...ten-bosch.html
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  #1458  
Old 07-09-2013, 09:29 AM
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I think this is the best news we could have expected considering Friso's situation. I am glad he has been discharged from the hospital in London at least to be among his family and cared for in familiar surroundings and in his homeland.
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  #1459  
Old 07-09-2013, 09:31 AM
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Perhaps now that is still in an unchanged state after all this time, they will let him go. Poor thing. A tragedy for the whole family.
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  #1460  
Old 07-09-2013, 09:32 AM
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I have a feeling that the Royal Family with this latest step are preparing to let Friso go...
I still pray for his wife, daughters, mother and brothers to give them strength for all the difficult decisions they have to take.
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