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  #461  
Old 02-28-2009, 07:05 AM
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Originally Posted by LadyFinn View Post

Emma Pernald wasn´t there, she was ill.
that's another story i know but unless i was wearing my head under my arm i would have shown up. strange (or maybe not?) that she wasn't there keeping in mind all these stories circulating about the couple

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Daniel Westling gave his first interview to newspaper Expressen after the engagement to Crown Princess Victoria was announced. He has gone back to his routine and daily life at his Gym Balance Training in central Stockholm. Expressen met him after his lunch break in the city and he said he is extremely happy and that he understands what is expected of him. He will do his very best in his work and support next to the Crown Princess.
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WHY ON EARTH did he take off his glasses on engagement day. He looks like a different personality without them (and not for the better). Daniel is a good looking man but even better looking with that special edge those glasses provide - he's definitely a "glasses-person".
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  #462  
Old 02-28-2009, 07:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Duke of Marmalade View Post
WHY ON EARTH did he take off his glasses on engagement day. He looks like a different personality without them (and not for the better). Daniel is a good looking man but even better looking with that special edge those glasses provide - he's definitely a "glasses-person".
I was asking me the same, he looks so much better with glasses.
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  #463  
Old 02-28-2009, 07:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Shaiya View Post
It seems that many have a different attitude to commoner women marrying princes than to commoner men marrying princesses. For some reason, it seems to bother people when the Cinderella story isn't fulfilled.
Just wanted to remind people that the Cinderella-story is not about a scullery maid becoming princess but about a young lady of the nobility deprived of her rightful place in society through machinations of evil relatives is restored to her rightful place by the prince. So if exiled Royal princess Theodora of Greece was to become Princess William of Wales and later Queen Consort of the Uk, this would be a kind of Cinderella-story, as she has been deprived of her position as a princess of a ruling House and would be restored to that place by the prince. Commoner-born Mary Donaldson becoming Crown Princess of Denmark is not a Cinderella-story.

I can't recall any fairytale-story where a scullery maid actually becomes princess.
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  #464  
Old 02-28-2009, 08:50 AM
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I am completely for equal primogeniture, why degrade women by saying that because of your sex, you will somehow be less capable as a monarch? No matter how anyone else tries to explain it, that's what male-preference laws comes down to.
Male-preferance primogeniture has little to do with capability to reign. It's for continuity of dynasties - usually men pass on their house/family name. That's the cruel truth in most of Europe.

But there is still inequality in equal primogeniture. Wives of male monarchs share their spouses' title, while husbands of female monarchs don't. The reason why husbands of queens regnant aren't kings - they don't want the monarch to be outranked by her spouse Isn't it degrading for women to say that the title of queen ranks lower than the title of king?
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  #465  
Old 02-28-2009, 10:26 AM
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: Isn't it degrading for women to say that the title of queen ranks lower than the title of king?
I agree with you, Kotroman about the title of queen. Ideally (in a perfect world) the title of King and Queen should considered equal; unfortunately, we don't live in a perfect world. It has always bothered me that the title of queen is seen as less than king, and thus we have the title prince consort. It's kind of a reverse discrimination, IMO. When a non-royal female spouse marries the king, she is still known as Queen; but for men, this is not the case. I believe that an earlier poster said it best, "royalty is not about equality".
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  #466  
Old 02-28-2009, 10:32 AM
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I believe that an earlier poster said it best, "royalty is not about equality".
But then I ask: why do we have equal primogeniture if it doesn't make all royal men and women equal?
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  #467  
Old 02-28-2009, 11:11 AM
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Princess Victoria of Sweden Announce Her Engagement to Mr. Daniel West
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  #468  
Old 02-28-2009, 11:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Kotroman View Post
But then I ask: why do we have equal primogeniture if it doesn't make all royal men and women equal?
Equal primogeniture is a relatively new concept. It has to start with those who are in direct line to a throne and over time, once everyone gets used to it, it can be reformed to apply to the styles and titles of their spouses. The title "King" is so old and ingrained as to having absolute power and authority that one can see how the public and government would question who was ultimately in charge in the monarchy between a Queen regnant and King consort.
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  #469  
Old 02-28-2009, 11:15 AM
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royals.web-log.nl: Verloving Kroonprinses Victoria en Daniël Westling
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  #470  
Old 02-28-2009, 11:18 AM
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The paper "The Local" is reporting that the reaction to the engagement is lukewarm at best. If you look on the righthand side of the website, there is a gallery of people's "reactions" to the announcement. Papers give royal engagement a lukewarm reception - The Local

I have a question though: people have said that they "look good together". What does that mean? What are the criteria to look good together?

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  #471  
Old 02-28-2009, 11:27 AM
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But then I ask: why do we have equal primogeniture if it doesn't make all royal men and women equal?
But equal primogeniture does make all royal men and women equal: the oldest child becomes the sovereign regardless of the child's gender.

What everyone is discussing is really the separate issue of titles. The women and men who inherit the title of monarch are treated equally. For example, a woman becomes the queen or duchesses in her own right. Where the inequality comes in is how to address the consort. For female spouses, there is no issue because there is a long tradition of calling them queen or duchess. But for male spouses, for whom there have historically been so few, there is no tradition of calling them king or duke when their wives have been the title holders.

I believe this is due to the connotation of the words king or duke: people assume a man who carries such a title is the one who inherited it, not his wife. Giving a male consort a different title prevents that misunderstanding. However, if enough women become title holders and enough men, by extension, become consorts, this issue will likely be addressed in the future in the interests of full equality.
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  #472  
Old 02-28-2009, 11:39 AM
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It seems to me that the problem (if it is a problem) we have here is somewhat complex and confused by the fact that although there is a specific title available for the wife of a male monarch, there is no specific title for the husband of a female monarch.

In my opinion, a monarch whether male or female should be considered of equal status and it follows therefore that the spouse (whether male or female) of a monarch should be considered of equal status too. As such, Daniel Westling once he married Victoria, should be accorded the same status as, for example, the wife of Crown Prince Frederik of Denmark. However, because custom, tradition, precedent etc throughout history enables a female to take on her husband's title but not vice-versa, there has never been a title/name available or created specifically for people in the positions that Daniel Westling, Prince Henrik, Clause Von Amsberg or the Duke of Edinburgh are in.

It would seem odd (though I'm not entirely sure why) if Daniel Westling were given the title Crown Prince, because that title has always been associated with someone who is next in line to the throne. It would seem even more odd if, when Victoria becomes Queen of Sweden, Daniel becomes King of Sweden.

To my rather confused mind, the bottom line is that in reality, there is one meaning for the word KING and two meanings for the word QUEEN (royal related!). The rank and status of the title QUEEN depends on the office the bearer of such title holds.

With regard to equal primogeniture, clearly whatever system of succession is used, there will always be some kind of inequality about it. The system of monarchy (and most forms of state institutions) is by its very nature and history not one based entirely on equality.
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  #473  
Old 02-28-2009, 12:26 PM
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How about Crown Prince-Consort. (and later King-Consort.)

TRH the Crown Princess and Crown Prince-Consort of Sweden.
TM the Queen and King-Consort of Sweden.

Some online news papers already used the Kronprinsesseparet to talk about the couple.

However, I think it's just going to be
TRH the Crown Princess and Prince Daniel of Sweden, the Duchess and Duke of Västergötland. (As said by the Royal Court)
HM the Queen and HRH the Prince-Consort of Sweden.
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  #474  
Old 02-28-2009, 12:28 PM
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Actually, there is tradition of refering to the queen regnant's husband as king. In Spain, every queen regnant's husband was king: either co-monarch (e.g. Ferdinand V and Philip I of Castile) or king consort (Isabella II's husband Francis). In England, Philip the husband of Mary I was king consort. In Scotland, another Mary I's husbands were kings consort.

Nordic countries don't have tradition to use prince consort title for the queen regnant's husband either: Margaret I reigned as widow, Christina reigned unmarried, and Ulrika Eleanor abdicated after less than a year in her husband's favour. So, nothing but the opinion that king ranks higher than queen prevents Swedish governement to decide that Daniel will be king consort - a consort with the title of king, who would rank below his wife and would do only what consorts usually do. It would be like:

Her Majesty The Queen of Sweden
His Majesty The King of Sweden
HRH The Crown Prince of Sweden (the hypothetical son of Victoria and Daniel)
HRH The Crown Princess of Sweden (the hypothetical daughter-in-law of Victoria and Daniel)
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  #475  
Old 02-28-2009, 12:31 PM
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Somehow I think the Swedish Royals will just handle it the way the Dutch and Danish did:
the husband of the reigning Queen will get the title Prince Consort.
(like Price Henrik or Prince Claus).
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  #476  
Old 02-28-2009, 12:58 PM
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Somehow I think the Swedish Royals will just handle it the way the Dutch and Danish did:
the husband of the reigning Queen will get the title Prince Consort.
(like Price Henrik or Prince Claus).
And Queen Elizabeth II's husband isn't called King either.

If I recall right, Prince Henrik just suddenly became The Prince Consort around 2005, so there was no automation in it. Before that, he was just referred to as "The Prince"

I think it is the case of following the modern precedent set in countries which Sweden is comparable to. Why re-invent the wheel with how Daniel is going to be addressed, when the Netherlands, Denmark and the UK have all had their heiresses being married in the generation before, and managed it without the world collapsing. (Prince Henrik's temper tantrum aside - that one had more to do with being ranked after his son in the precedence than the actual title he had.)
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  #477  
Old 02-28-2009, 03:14 PM
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hey boys, will be happen some party or dinner to celebrating the engagement of Victoria and Daniel?
Please some one answer!
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  #478  
Old 02-28-2009, 03:23 PM
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And Queen Elizabeth II's husband isn't called King either.
But the UK and Denmark still have male-preferance primogeniture, which is "discriminatory towards women" () so discriminating men by not giving them right to enjoy their wife's title puts things into balance. It's different in Sweden. If they want pure gender equality in the monarchy, then they shouldn't make exceptions which make no sense.
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  #479  
Old 02-28-2009, 03:26 PM
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hey boys, will be happen some party or dinner to celebrating the engagement of Victoria and Daniel?
Please some one answer!
Here are some links with information about a little party , or shall I call it dinner, with the family on Drottningholm. Daniels parents, Ewa and Olle Westling, Daniels sister, Anna, the Kings sisters Christina and Desiree plus their families and of course Madeleine, Jonas, Carl Philipp, the King and the Queen attend this party. Emma didn't attend because of illness.

Klanen Bernadotte firade med familjen Westling inatt | Victoria gifter sig | Nyheter | Aftonbladet

Kungen höll tal för alla - Förlovningen - Expressen.se

Bara de närmaste var med på förlovningsmiddagen - Svensk Damtidning
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  #480  
Old 02-28-2009, 04:02 PM
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Reguarding the discussion about equal primogeniture and what title a queen's husband should have... Well, I have nothing against Victoria, but I still think, that Carl Philip should have remained crown prince. And even though he only was a baby, taking his title away and giving it to his sister was very odd. But that's too late to change now, of course.

And yes, a queen's husband should be called "king", just like a king's wife is called "queen". It does give me the impression, that the title of "queen" is inferior to the title of "king", and that doesn't seem right.
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