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  #361  
Old 12-17-2016, 05:55 AM
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Duke, I do not believe that any Royal Family is white and pure, as in all classes of society they do not escape problems, and having power and influence the risk of taking advantage of certain privileges is always there.

Cristina's problem has always been that obsessed in her pride and accustomed to a life of privileges ... she has never seen reality. Iñaki was unintelligent, too ambitious, and Cristina's big mistake was to look the other way.

She lives in Switzerland, working for fabulous salaries in jobs that she has obtained and maintained by friends of Juan Carlos and with protection of the Spanish police. According to the press, also Juan Carlos and Sofia help to finance the exclusive education of her children. What else does she want?

On the title of nobility, the duchy was an honor ... and Iñaki used that honor to do business, and filled his pockets with public money from the citizens of that city. For the city of Palma de Mallorca was an offense that they used that title, they had already eliminated the street of the "Dukes of Palma" and wanted to officially ask the Royal House to withdraw the title ... was inevitable. Cristina is still Infanta of Spain that is a greater honor, and that is a title that her husband can not use.
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  #362  
Old 12-17-2016, 06:55 AM
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What happens to the Infanta (great jobs, good salaries) happens to almost all royal children in reigning monarchies. It comes with the package of belonging to a family in the top of the social pyramid.

Doña Cristina already lived a luxury lifestyle before Urdangarín became an executive of NOOS, so the big house and big lifestyle was not connected to NOOS per sé.
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  #363  
Old 12-17-2016, 08:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
What happens to the Infanta (great jobs, good salaries) happens to almost all royal children in reigning monarchies. It comes with the package of belonging to a family in the top of the social pyramid.

Doña Cristina already lived a luxury lifestyle before Urdangarín became an executive of NOOS, so the big house and big lifestyle was not connected to NOOS per sé.
I agree with you - usually 'golden jobs' are given to family members by friends and connections, eg the job Cristina currently holds, provided by the Aga Khan. Elena's husband Jaime held a similar job during the marriage.

Inaki is different, because he was too arrogant and stupid to accept such a job (he turned down a 200.000 Euro per year job at Laureus because he felt it it was not good enough), he wanted to provide all the luxury life by himself, so he started doing shady deals involving public money because of his status, son in law of the King, and the 'business' went well. He funded the extra-luxurious lifestyle on stealing public money (JC even recommended him). Yes, Cristina is a rich woman (she'll become really weathly when her parents pass away), but Inaki wanted more, he wanted to show off what he created, what a great business guy he was and his wife looked the other way. People already started asking questions when they bought and renovated the Pedralbes house, way over the top for Inaki.

In the end the King had to force Inaki to take a 'golden job', Telefonica in Washington, to get him out of the way, but it was already too late, because the economic situation was turning to the worse and the King thought it was a good idea to shoot an elephant in Africa, both incidents made public opinion change and people taking a closer look to the dealings of the SRF. Cristina became a scapegoat because she did not want to do what the public relation department asked her to do, back down and be quiet.

You are right lula, no RF is white and clean, but over the years people could witness some difference of behaviour with all family members, when in public and in private, what leads to the thought that they are all hypocrites:

Juan Carlos: travelling to Africa with his mistress and shooting an elephant, nobody would have known had he not broken his hip, in times of economic hardship
Sofia: travelling to Washington and posing with Inaki, who was already accused of stealing public money, for pictures, smiling, after the scandal broke, in times of economic hardship
Felipe: not doing anything about it for years, still posing smiling with Inaki on his birthday shortly before the scandal became public
Letizia: not in connection with Cristina and Inaki but her yoga friend, involved in a credit card scandal, labelling the magazines writing about it as 'sh*t', assuring her friendship, 'to hell with the rest', meaning everybody outside their circle = the public.
  #364  
Old 12-17-2016, 08:31 AM
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The big house was bought with money from Noos, help from Juan Carlos and a mortgage loan very beneficial to them from the bank where Cristina works. Before they lived in a flat, in a nice neighborhood, but much smaller... The doubt of how they were able to buy that great house and pay for the great reform always existed.

For example, Infanta Elena and Marichalar lived for many years renting in a flat that was owned by a friend, it is known that Jaime de Marichalar was able to buy his own house with the help of an inheritance he received from an aunt.

Iñaki was a handball player, that in Spain is a secondary sport, did not win the money of a soccer player. It was when he left the sport, that he started with business ... he wanted to succeed and earn money fast, without the necessary experience and intelligence to handle those businesses.
  #365  
Old 12-17-2016, 08:46 AM
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Originally Posted by lula View Post
[...] ... he wanted to succeed and earn money fast, without the necessary experience and intelligence to handle those businesses.
In all alleged corruption cases in all countries it shows that also people with necessary experience and intelligence to handle those businesses are waaaaay open for "deals". It happens to the best and the brightest. Manipulation of the LIBOR interest rate by the top banks. Manipulation of the software of Volkswagens so that test results of diesel pollution would be more favourable than in reality. Fannie Mae and Lehman Brothers trading in worthless mortgages. Etc. The governing Partido Popular is buried in corruption. This did not prevent them to remain by far the biggest political party in Spain, by the way.

Morale of the story: whether Urdangarín was up to the job or not, experienced or not, intelligent or not: most experienced, most intelligend and most capable CEO's in the world have been open to corruption, simply because they could not resist the seduction of great wealth streaming their way.
  #366  
Old 12-18-2016, 05:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
It is a very understandable reaction of an utterly exhausted person after, as the article mentioned: "61 sessions in Court, together lasting 164 days, in six months time". And it is even more understandable seeing what the Infanta Doña Cristina herself is actually accused of. Any other Spanish citizen with the same accusation would see this case administratively dealt or maybe has to spend one afternoon in a tribunal. This was pure class justice, but then in the reverse meaning of the word.
Sorry but this is crap. She is a privileged woman living a privileged life thanks to working and middle class Spaniards. She abused her royal status thinking her husband and her had card blanche because she was an infanta. Wrong.

The wheel of justice in Spain is slow but inexorable. For everyone. Most importantly she'a been judged publicly - we don't want her in Spain. Neither the King nor the Parliament can't control her dynastic's rights, they belong to her. However, this will change when amendments to the Spanish Constitution are made following political parties' discussions on the way.
  #367  
Old 12-18-2016, 06:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Marengo View Post
If the quotes are actually hers, I can just say: wow! or make that WOW!

Did she really say all this or do 'sources' claim she says/thinks it?
She must be under a lot of stress and seems to be burning her brigdes if these quotes are real ones.

Did she actually mention her sister-in-law or is it an interpertation by the newspaper?
The stuff about her sister in law is the dramatic interpretation from the newspaper to make the story more interesting. Letizia sells so if she can be enmeshed in the article so much the better. LOC is the gossip section of El Mundo. What they don't know they invent or embellish. Kind of like Daily Mirror.
  #368  
Old 12-18-2016, 06:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Duke of Marmalade View Post

You are right lula, no RF is white and clean, but over the years people could witness some difference of behaviour with all family members,N when in public and in private, what leads to the thought that they are all hypocrites:
There are hypocrites everywhere:

Prince Phillip - he's had several affairs along the years. Loves hunting.
Prince Andrew - he's selling his name to whoever buys it. Loves hunting.
King Gustav - several affairs. Loves hunting.
Prince Bernhard of Holland - Nazi sympathizer and "founder of WWF" - he shoot anything that moved.

Prince Phillip is quite popular despite being a misogynist, sexist and racist self.

Frankly, they can all go to hell. I want my Head of State to have principles and Felipe is a principled man.
  #369  
Old 12-18-2016, 06:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Alondra View Post
Sorry but this is crap. She is a privileged woman living a privileged life thanks to working and middle class Spaniards. She abused her royal status thinking her husband and her had card blanche because she was an infanta. Wrong.

[...]
Explain how it is thanks to "working and middle class Spaniards" (so no low and high class Spaniards?) that Doña Cristina has a "privileged" lifestyle? She has never received one cent of income from the State.

When the Infantas did public events, the expenses of Doña Elena and Doña Cristina were reimbursed with a cap of around € 25.000,-- per person which is really nothing in comparison with other monarchies. When still a member of the Casa Real, the maximum annual reimbursement of Doña Cristina did cost 5/100th of one single Eurocent per Spaniard.

Wooooooooooooooooooooooooooooow..... thát is expensive! Chop her head off!

  #370  
Old 12-18-2016, 07:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Alondra View Post
There are hypocrites everywhere:

Prince Phillip - he's had several affairs along the years. Loves hunting.
Prince Andrew - he's selling his name to whoever buys it. Loves hunting.
King Gustav - several affairs. Loves hunting.
Prince Bernhard of Holland - Nazi sympathizer and "founder of WWF" - he shoot anything that moved.

Prince Phillip is quite popular despite being a misogynist, sexist and racist self.

Frankly, they can all go to hell. I want my Head of State to have principles and Felipe is a principled man.
The Prince Philip having had several affairs and a love of hunting: not illegal.

The Prince Andrew selling his name to any bidder and a love of hunting: not illegal.

The King Gustav having had several affairs and a love of hunting: not illegal.

The Prince Bernhard of the Netherlands - being a (alleged) Nazi-sympathizer is not illegal. The Prince actually indeed was the founder-President of World Wildlife Fund, so no sarcastic marks needed here, and until that position the Prince -like any aristocract- was a hunter as well.

You name all "blames" which are not illegal at all but you forget the-mother-of-all-blames: Prince Bernhard "has been too easily accessible for favours by third parties" (the actual bribery has never been proven) and therefore was "punished" by a discharge from all military functions (as his "services" were connected with the gigantic mega-million-purchase of 212 F-16 fighters for the Royal Netherlands Air Force).

In comparison with this, the Infanta Doña Cristina buying a new dress at Zara with a creditcard which might possibly have had some NOOS money is nothing.
  #371  
Old 12-18-2016, 07:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
Explain how it is thanks to "working and middle class Spaniards" (so no low and high class Spaniards?) that the Infanta Doña Cristina has a "privileged" lifestyle? She has never received one cent of income from the State.
The monarchy in Spain ended in 1931 when by popular vote we became a Republic. It was because a dictatorship (Franco's) that Spain became a monarchy again. Cristina would had to work hard for a living had she been a minor stateless royal in Europe. Fortunately for her, her family "privileges" were restored and her expenses were paid by spanish taxpayers. Not YOU.

Spaniards expect our royals to respect our constitution and LAWS. The Undargarin's didn't.
  #372  
Old 12-18-2016, 07:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
The Prince Philip having had several affairs and a love of hunting: not illegal.

The Prince Andrew selling his name to any bidder and a love of hunting: not illegal.

The King Gustav having had several affairs and a love of hunting: not illegal.

The Prince Bernhard of the Netherlands - "Nazi sympathizer and "founder of WWF" - he shoot anything that moved: Being a Nazi-sympathizer is not illegal. He indeed was one of the founders of the World Wildlife Fund and until then he indeed was a hunter as well.

You name all "blames" which are not illegal at all but you forget one blame: the Prince Bernhard "being too easily accessible for favours by third parties" (the actual bribery has never been proven) and therefore "punished" by discharging from all military functions (as the "services" were for the gigantic purchase of 212 F-16 fighters for the Royal Netherlands Air Force). In comparison with this, the Infanta buying a new dress at Zara with a creditcard which might have had NOOS money is nothing.
What's your point? I answered a post referring to royal's being hypocritical, not illegal.
  #373  
Old 12-18-2016, 07:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Alondra View Post
What's your point? I answered a post referring to royal's being hypocritical, not illegal. Take a chill pill will you?
My point is that you blame these royals for acts which are not illegal, with other words: anyone can have an opinion about it but they did not break any law.

The Infanta Doña Cristina is in tribunal because she is under suspicion of having acted illegally, against the law.

So in my personal neatly worded opinion, without any pill whatsoever, the cases of the Infanta and the three gentlemen you gave as an example are beyond comparison.
  #374  
Old 12-18-2016, 07:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Alondra View Post
The monarchy in Spain ended in 1931 when by popular vote we became a Republic. It was because a dictatorship (Franco's) that Spain became a monarchy again. Cristina would had to work hard for a living had she been a minor stateless royal in Europe. Fortunately for her, her family "privileges" were restored and her expenses were paid by spanish taxpayers. Not YOU.

Spaniards expect our royals to respect our constitution and LAWS. The Undargarin's didn't.
You are not giving an answer. I poned down the verificable fact that neither Doña Elena nor Doña Cristina (equal to their aunts Doña Pilar and Doña Margarita) received any cent of income from the State of Spain.

That these four ladies all settled well and lead a "privileged" life is because they belong to a family which is part of the top of the social pyramid and yes, Don Juan, who never was King of Spain, already was a wealthy man himself. That his daughters and granddaughters live "well to do" is more because they are what they are and not because of the Spanish taxpayers.
  #375  
Old 12-18-2016, 07:19 AM
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The monarchy in Spain ended in 1931 when by popular vote we became a Republic. [...]
That is new to me. I understood that the municipal elections of 1931 resulted in victories (mainly in big cities) for parties favoring an end to the monarchy. Unrest broke out in these cities and King Alfonso XIII went into exile but did not abdicate.

Is that "by popular vote we became a Republic"?
  #376  
Old 12-18-2016, 07:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
My point is that you blame these royals for acts which are not illegal, with other words: anyone can have an opinion about it but they did not break any law.

The Infanta Doña Cristina is in tribunal because she is under suspicion of having acted illegally, against the law.

So in my personal neatly worded opinion, without any pill whatsoever, the cases of the Infanta and the three gentlemen you gave as an example are beyond comparison.

Frankly I don't understand your post. Cristina and her husband are facing charges for tax fraud in Spain. They had the best representation against the tribunal - few people have so many lawyers working with them.

We all know she committed fraud. Her husband will go to jail, she wont.
  #377  
Old 12-18-2016, 07:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
That is new to me. I understood that the municipal elections of 1931 resulted in victories (mainly in big cities) for parties favoring an end to the monarchy. Unrest broke out in these cities and King Alfonso XIII went into exile but did not abdicate.

Is that "by popular vote we became a Republic"?
You are being pedantic and shouldn't rely too much on wikipedia
  #378  
Old 12-18-2016, 10:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
Any other Spanish citizen with the same accusation would see this case administratively dealt or maybe has to spend one afternoon in a tribunal. This was pure class justice, but then in the reverse meaning of the word.
i think that this is because there is an expectation she should have known better. being a representation of the head of state and a well educated woman with many privileges afforded to her through her position, people have high expectations and i don't blame them.

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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
Then the King taking away her title Duquesa de Palma de Mallorca: a shameful and cowardly act. While it is not at all for sure that the Infanta will be convicted for anything, he already sacrificed his sister on the altar of the public opinion. What will Don Felipe do when the Tribunal follows the Public Prosecutor and discharges the Infanta? Restore her as Duquesa de Palma de Mallorca? No... the bitter words of the Infanta are very understandable indeed.
i was very happy seeing felipe revoke her title. it was the only thing under his hand to show his disapproval. i think he may have had an expectations that cristina would give up her title herself (but as you say, she won't because in her head she did nothing wrong, so why should she?). so he took cards in the matter, and did the only thing under his control. i think it was a wise move myself, or all the rubbish of this matter would fly into his yard.

to me, there is no coming back. cristina won't be duchess of palma again.

Quote:
Frankly, they can all go to hell. I want my Head of State to have principles and Felipe is a principled man.
people thought JC was a principled man too, until they saw him shooting an elephant with his mistress in an exotic destination in times of economic crisis in spain WHILST being the spanish honorary president of the WWF. i don't put my hand under the fire for any of the members of this family, including felipe himself. yes, from the outside he seems principled but weren't cristina and inaki not the 'idyllic royal family' at one point?

'trust is gained in drops and lost in buckets'

Quote:
Letizia: not in connection with Cristina and Inaki but her yoga friend, involved in a credit card scandal, labelling the magazines writing about it as 'sh*t', assuring her friendship, 'to hell with the rest', meaning everybody outside their circle = the public.
not to mention that she was a self-confessed republican before marrying felipe who according to her was agnostic, magically reinvented as a monarchic, catholic who visits the pope, kisses his hand and goes to church as required. no principles are visible here.
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  #379  
Old 12-18-2016, 10:40 AM
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Originally Posted by carlota View Post
'trust is gained in drops and lost in buckets'
Sometimes a simple statement says far more than a 3000 word thesis and this one fits the best for me.

No matter what the outcome of this lengthly trial or whatever sentence is passed down to either Inaki or Cristina, the fact that there even was a trial will remain as the black mark against these people's characters. There will be no coming back from it as people have long memories.
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  #380  
Old 12-18-2016, 11:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Alondra View Post
The monarchy in Spain ended in 1931 when by popular vote we became a Republic. It was because a dictatorship (Franco's) that Spain became a monarchy again.
It is technically correct that it was Franco who originally restored the monarchy. However, the present constitutional monarchy is a creation of the constitution of 1978, which was ratified in a popular referendum by over 90 % of those who voted. It is not like the monarchy lacks legitimacy then.
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