Debate on the Reform of the Spanish Constitution (Re: Succession)

[Mari_*]

I think if it's a boy he will be the heir..

 

[adelaide]

Thanks Bmoliveira for your translation.
We have to par attention when we use internet dictionary firts to the name of family, then for the technical words, because some time the electronique dictionary is making barbarism and false sens which give a wrong sens of the text. ( It's the reason why, for my part, I use it with a lot of prudence)

 

[aryo]

I got confused.
felipe would be the king in 10 years,so in 10 years he would have his complete number of children he want.so if this baby is girl,they won't change the law,but if the next baby was boy,what would happen?they will wait until he become king?in 2008 there is an election why do they held a referandum and change the law?

 

[adelaide]

I got confused.
felipe would be the king in 10 years,so in 10 years he would have his complete number of children he want.so if this baby is girl,they won't change the law,but if the next baby was boy,what would happen?they will wait until he become king?in 2008 there is an election why do they held a referandum and change the law?

That is the question! An other one, why Aznar didn't do it also?

 

[Princess Robijn]

The following is my alternate translation of this article.
Sabino Fernandez Campo, former head of household for His Majesty the King, demonstrated today that he would support constitutional reform that would permit a female to ascend to the throne only when the current Prince of Asturias becomes King.

Fernandez Campo, in Tenerife to participate in a conference concerning the Monarchy and the Constitution, part of the presentation organized by the Parliament in the Canary Islands commemorating the centennial of the visit to the Canary Islands by Alfonso XII, suggested that constitutional reform requires extreme measures (requisitos severos).

He explained that it would be necessary to dissolve the Courts and convene a referendum, which is difficult for a government in power to find an opportune moment to do.

In his opinion, this reform must be broached with prudence and calm, and affirmed that in the event that Princess Letizia were to give birth to another female, it would not complicate matters, since there would be time to implement reforms permitting Infanta Leonor to succeed to the throne.

In the event that the child whom Princess Letizia now expects is a male, matters, he acknowledged, would be more complicated, since he would inherit a present right to the Crown upon his birth.

He recalled that the Council of State has given retroactive application to prior constitutional amendments, but in his opinion, while such changes might not have judicial or legal effect, they might have a moral effect.

If a change were enacted giving a female heir comparable rights of inheritance, one wonders why the Infanta Elena would not inherit those rights.

Wouldn't this be the same as in Norway? (Crown Prince Haakon & Princess Märtha-Louise) so it is possible

 

[lula]

Wouldn't this be the same as in Norway? (Crown Prince Haakon & Princess Märtha-Louise) so it is possible

Yes, and the same thing that in Belgium (Philippe and Astrid). What happens is that in Spain to the people much likes to create polemics and to discuss very much. What happens is that with this reform others have to be done there are a lot of different interests, for what there are people interested in creating polemics or looking for polemics, to complicate everything.

The Government, the Council of State and the Chairwoman of the Constitutional Court have repeated it often. The succession will reform in order that Leonor could succeed to her father, but supporting the position of the Prince of Asturias. Personally I believe that it is a question of State, and for the good of the State. The situation of the Monarchy in Spain, for historical known reasons, is not easy. If the Prince of Asturias takes some future one as a possible King, it is because he has been educated from child to be it, and because the people entrusts in that this education leads him to being a good Chief of State.

 

[adelaide]

The important thing in the spanish situation for the succession of... FELIPE, is that it's Felipe who was educated for to be the inheritor of his father and it's a right constitutional and since twenty years all his work is doing for this aim. It's a coherent action.

The coming of Letizia, as we can to see YET, reinforce this role with a great weight of efficacity.

The discussion about the succussion of Felipe until now is quiet an academic one because none of the politics hadn't the politic corage to do it.

 

[Princess of Monaco]

Is true... I think has more complicated is the new baby born is a boy...

I dont agree with Sabino because is Princess Letizia has a boy, in the order of preference has to the boy and how is tell is complicated and I think Infanta Leonor can reign and possibly can the other females in the family...

The S. 21 not want this because is discriminate with the woman, Queen Sofia has a good queen but she stay all time behind King Juan Carlos... Pass the same thing with Letizia... she has glamour and more better things to the Royal Family and I think she knowledge the family about the treatment with the prenses, about the speeches and other things...

I prefer the before Letizia not the after, she's not spontaneus and I dont like I prefer the treat of Princess Maxima and Princess Mary their was her not that the Royal Family what to do...

 

[lula]

I believe that I have repeated it often. In case of the Queen Sofia and of the Princess, the question is not that they are women. They occupy a secondary place, because they must occupy a secondary place. And in knowing it, there is the base of which they do a good work. They must never be over the King that is the Chief of the State, and of the Prince that is the future Chief of State. The Queen and the Princess do not work for them, work for the Monarchy and work for the State. They are the colitigants, and because of it they occupy a secondary place, since Jaime and Iñaki occupy it behind the Infantas.

 

[Elsa M.]

http://actualidad.terra.es/familia-real/articulo/iu_principes_constitucion_1238832.htm

The man in charge of IU, Félix Taberna, stated today that the news on the new daughter of the Princes of Asturias shall not provoke 'false debates' around the reform of the Constitution, as far as succession is concerned. What must take place is an ample constitutional reform in all senses, in order to change the model in the Head of State.

 

[Redferns]

Spain: equal rights

In the dark heart of machismo shines a beacon of sexual equalitry


Thomas Catan, Madrid
In 30 years Spanish women have gone from being mere chattels to the most liberated in Europe. They are even on the road signs


NI_MPU('middle');They make up half the Spanish population but have yet to appear on a single coin. Now MPs are preparing to pass a bill stipulating that 50 per cent of Spain’s euro coins must bear a woman’s image.

“For women, this is absolutely fundamental,” said Elvira Cortajarena, the Socialist MP sponsoring the measure. “We need our work to be recognised and valued.”
In Fuenlabrada, a commuter town on the outskirts of Madrid, authorities are taking aim at other perceived symbols of male domination. The town council has decreed that half of the street signs should show a recognisably female figure. New signs at pedestrian crossings show a stick figure with a skirt and a pony tail, rather than the traditional striding man. “The idea is to change the male signs for female ones as they deteriorate,” said Rosalina Guijarro, the town’s traffic and safety councillor. “That way we will end the sexism that has existed in traffic signs.”
All over Spain, long considered the spiritual home of machismo, debate is raging about gender equality in a way that has not been heard in other European countries since the 1970s.
Efforts to give the country’s coins and street signs a female face have been met with some derision by conservatives as evidence of political correctness gone mad. But those symbolic moves are being accompanied by one of the most ambitious efforts to promote gender equality seen in decades.
Source: Times database

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,13509-2476981_2,00.html

 

[Lox]

The real question here is: if Felipe has a son, will that son be robbed of his birthright as heir, and be knocked down a couple of steps in the order of succession? Or will the new succession law start with the children of that yet to be born prince?

This would be a lot easier if Felipe never gets a son, or if he gets one AFTER the new succession law has been passed.

 

[Gloriana]

I don't see it as being ''robbed'' of anything.

 

[ZandraRae]

As I have posted on this forum before in the Swedish thread, IMO the firstborn, whether male or female should inherit the throne. In the case of the Spanish Royal Family, that person should be Infanta Leonor. I do hope that the law will be changed and that Leonor will be queen one day.

 

[crm2317]

When Letizia and Felipe were expecting their second child they found out the sex of the baby so that if it was a boy, they would perhaps reform the constitution before birth. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

However the baby was a girl and so there was no need for an immediate reform. What happens when Leonor has a daughter and she should be Queen but there is still no reform of the constitution. Surely the reform is inevitable, it is just a question of when the timing is right?

 

[dazzling]

As I have posted on this forum before in the Swedish thread, IMO the firstborn, whether male or female should inherit the throne. In the case of the Spanish Royal Family, that person should be Infanta Leonor. I do hope that the law will be changed and that Leonor will be queen one day.

I totally agree, male or female, they should be the next to the throne

 

[Mari_*]

So, according to this we could take for a fact that Leonor is the heiress to the Spanish throne.. ¿?

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

So, according to this we could take for a fact that Leonor is the heiress to the Spanish throne.. ¿?

At the moment it's a fact - provided that Letizia does not give birth to a boy before a reform of the constitution.

So if there is no boy, Leonor will be Queen anyway, even without a reform. If there is a boy, he will be heir until a reform.

I am sure the reform will come as everybody, public, politicians and SRF want Leonor or the first born in general to be heir, no matter what gender (Felipe's generation excluded of course).

Leonor's christening already marked the first step of her upbringing as heir, with King and Queen as godparents, all important people present and making use of the baptismal font that is only reserved for the heir to the throne. I expect Sofia's christening a much more private and low key event, looking forward to it

 

[mapian]

At the moment it's a fact - provided that Letizia does not give birth to a boy before a reform of the constitution.

So if there is no boy, Leonor will be Queen anyway, even without a reform. If there is a boy, he will be heir until a reform.

I am sure the reform will come as everybody, public, politicians and SRF want Leonor or the first born in general to be heir, no matter what gender (Felipe's generation excluded of course).

Leonor's christening already marked the first step of her upbringing as heir, with King and Queen as godparents, all important people present and making use of the baptismal font that is only reserved for the heir to the throne. I expect Sofia's christening a much more private and low key event, looking forward to it

You are right, but you make a mistake: baptismal font is reserved for the "infantes" (princes) of Spain not only for the heir to the throne. Sofía also will use this font.

I think spanish people will not admit that Leonor will not be queen.

 

[Mari_*]

I've just read an article today where it says that the reform of the constitution is a very long and complicated process.

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

You are right, but you make a mistake: baptismal font is reserved for the "infantes" (princes) of Spain not only for the heir to the throne. Sofía also will use this font.

I think spanish people will not admit that Leonor will not be queen.

Oh yes you are right. Got confused here. Do we know if the baptism will take place in the palace or at Zarzuela?

Even if F & L will have a boy, I have the feeling that Leonor should be Queen and the constitution should be changed. But as you mentioned in another post, it will be tricky for many reasons and in the end the SRF fears either a change to their role or abolishment, worst case cenario. It's no secret that there are public movements / politicians who want to get rid of / cut powers of the monarchy who will try to use this long awaited once in a lifetime opportunity for their own purposes.

 

[mapian]

Oh yes you are right. Got confused here. Do we know if the baptism will take place in the palace or at Zarzuela?

Even if F & L will have a boy, I have the feeling that Leonor should be Queen and the constitution should be changed. But as you mentioned in another post, it will be tricky for many reasons and in the end the SRF fears either a change to their role or abolishment, worst case cenario. It's no secret that there are public movements / politicians who want to get rid of / cut powers of the monarchy who will try to use this long awaited once in a lifetime opportunity for their own purposes.

It's hard for me write in Inglish, that's a link from Leonor's baptism thread, I think Sofia's baptism will be very similar, simple and familiar.

http://www.theroyalforums.com/forums/f11/christening-infanta-leonor-january-14th-2006-a-7826.html

Yes, it is dificult change some articles of spanish constitution, Monarchy opposition is minority in Spain, but they make a lot of noise, this change is a good oportunity for them.

 

[WindsorIII]

I totally agree, male or female, they should be the next to the throne

Agreed. I never undestood in this day and age that we are in that some of the prehistoric beliefs are still in place. I am not saying desmantle traditions but there are certain cases that just need to be adjusted for the times. Today woman are just as capable and have the same opportunities as men, (I am talking about the Western world here, which Spain is part of)

So no longer is it true that a make is more qualified or better prepared to rule than a female, just simply by being born a male.

It may be a long and complicated process to change the constititution but for this issue, it would be worth the trouble.

JMO

 

[Mari_*]

But as you mentioned in another post, it will be tricky for many reasons and in the end the SRF fears either a change to their role or abolishment, worst case cenario. It's no secret that there are public movements / politicians who want to get rid of / cut powers of the monarchy who will try to use this long awaited once in a lifetime opportunity for their own purposes.

Yes, so I've read. That the referendum could lead to referendum of monarchy yes, or monarchy not.

 

[marian]

In firts place, I think that thank you to discrimination to some princess, some countries, in specially in Europe, had a great kings. For example, King Badouin of Belgium, he was a great king. Now, King Harald is a good king but his older sister had to be discriminated for that Harald, because he is man, he could be a king. In this times, there are monarchies with heirs males, except in Sweden. But, I think that is very hard for a prince has a job that dont be as crown prince as Carl Philip. Is princess Victoria happy as crown princess ?

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

Some countries in Europe still prefer the male heir but I think the reasons why this was once established are out of date today. Best example is the Netherlands with their very popular Queens in the past generations. I have no doubt that Princess Anne or Infanta Elena - provided they had received the same education as their younger brothers - would be very capable to do the "top job".

What I sometimes think is that it might be more difficult for a future Queen to find a suitable spouse as men in general are more reluctant to fit into the consort role as for society it's more natural to see a woman there. It's somehow fixed in our minds since it has been mostly the case in the past centuries - with some exceptions of course.
There were / are great male consorts around but they all admitted that their life was not easy in the shadow of a Queen, just think of Prince Philip, Prince Claus or Prince Bernhard. They all had their difficulties with their role and I imagine that - in case they get married - Daniel Westling's task won't be exactly easy either. But maybe society will have moved on regarding this issue once Leonor is old enough to chose her partner.

 

[Mari_*]

Some countries in Europe still prefer the male heir but I think the reasons why this was once established are out of date today. Best example is the Netherlands with their very popular Queens in the past generations. I have no doubt that Princess Anne or Infanta Elena - provided they had received the same education as their younger brothers - would be very capable to do the "top job".

What I sometimes think is that it might be more difficult for a future Queen to find a suitable spouse as men in general are more reluctant to fit into the consort role as for society it's more natural to see a woman there. It's somehow fixed in our minds since it has been mostly the case in the past centuries - with some exceptions of course.
There were / are great male consorts around but they all admitted that their life was not easy in the shadow of a Queen, just think of Prince Philip, Prince Claus or Prince Bernhard. They all had their difficulties with their role and I imagine that - in case they get married - Daniel Westling's task won't be exactly easy either. But maybe society will have moved on regarding this issue once Leonor is old enough to chose her partner.

I totally agree with you. That's what I've always thought.

 

[adelaide]

Dear Duke of Marmelade the Pile of San Dominic de Guzman is used for all the Infants of Spain and not only for the futur heir.

 

[asma]

Some countries in Europe still prefer the male heir but I think the reasons why this was once established are out of date today. Best example is the Netherlands with their very popular Queens in the past generations. I have no doubt that Princess Anne or Infanta Elena - provided they had received the same education as their younger brothers - would be very capable to do the "top job".

What I sometimes think is that it might be more difficult for a future Queen to find a suitable spouse as men in general are more reluctant to fit into the consort role as for society it's more natural to see a woman there. It's somehow fixed in our minds since it has been mostly the case in the past centuries - with some exceptions of course.
There were / are great male consorts around but they all admitted that their life was not easy in the shadow of a Queen, just think of Prince Philip, Prince Claus or Prince Bernhard. They all had their difficulties with their role and I imagine that - in case they get married - Daniel Westling's task won't be exactly easy either. But maybe society will have moved on regarding this issue once Leonor is old enough to chose her partner.

totally agree,Besides,I've another point, my admiration of monarchies is mainly due to stability and tradition reserved for hundreds of years so I prefer no change in spanish conistitution.this of course doesn't mean I don't want Leonor to be queen but when this is her right according to the current conistitution.
one more point,I think changing conistitution will take away the right of Leonor younger brother"if any".

 

[aryo]

I was reading another forum about spanish royals and there they had a wonderful discussion about why changing the constitution in favor of infanta leonor is almost imposible,they said the goverment decide to change the constitution,the referandum result would be yes,but the real problem is the campaign for the referandum beacuse the campaign will be the great chance that the oppositions(republican and nationalist)dream of and people start to talk about the existence of monarchey.THAT'S WHY THE PRINCES WAS TOLD NOT HAVE ANOTHER CHILD.