Bluetortuga and Bubbette are not the same people, Sean
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My apologies then. I just wasn't sure. :flower:
I am a supporter of Israel and her right to exist. I do not support any organization or state that uses terror as a means to achieve their goals.
Does that include Israel too? Also, can you cite official examples (i.e. by IFIs and the UN) of Palestinian corruption? Now compare and contrast to every other state in the world, including Israel.
If the PA was not so corrupt, maybe there would have been a Palestinian state already. But they have proven time and time again that they cannot be trusted. One day they say peace, the next day its a bombing.
There would never have been a Palestinian state because until recently Israel would not agree to one. The PA was only established in 1993. However, Israeli leaders througout the country's short history, from Ben Gurion to Golda Meir and from Rabin to Sharon, have always vehemently opposed a Palestinian State. Not because of the corruption of the PA (which didn't exist before 1993), but because they saw Palestine as their 'god given' land. Indeed, up until last year, Sharon was publicly against a Palestinian state -- no matter what. Also, While corruption is a problem, that has nothing to do with statehood.There are plent of states with corruption. Thus it is just an excuse to deny statehood and gobble up more and more land.
If you are so against terrorism, you should also be against State sponsored terrorism, which Israel engages in daily. Again, I can cite you hundreds of examples if you so wish. I do not condone violence (I believe human life is sacrosanct), but having seen how they are treated, I do understand what would drive the Palestinians to such depths of despair. Your argument of not being trusted can be used against the Israelis. Cosntant seize fires, but then the displacing of civilians for settlements, the diverting of water, the confiscatio of farm lands for settlers, the extra judicial assassinations, the torture, the breaking of bones of young Palestinian boys with huge stones by soldiers (I've seen it with my own two eyes), the dropping of 2000 pound bombs into the most densely populated area on earth. The list is endless. The fact of the matter is that Israel has done nothing to make peace. As one previous poster even acknowledged, ethnic cleansing or "transfer" is the preferred solution. This has been the case since the inception of Israel. Indeed, Theodre Herzl, the founder of Zionism, even said so at at the turn of the century.
You don't justify your cause by blowing up civilians.
The bombings can not be controlled by the PA. Even in areas that are under the control of the Israeli Defence Forces with all of their military might (thanks to the US tax payer), bombers get out. If they can't stop it, then you can not expect an civilian authority wich has been decimated by the Israelis to be able to do so. Until there is a brutal occupation, there will be violence. Any simpelton knows that. Just look at colonial history. Even Israelis recognize that now. There soldiers are refusing to serve for these vary reasons.
And they are only willing to return to the peace table whenever one of their major allies takes a big hit.
You are also wrong when you say the Palestinians don't come to the peace table until they suffer some kind of setback or when "one of their major allies takes a hit. Firstly, they don't have any major allies (I don't count the self-serving Arab states as allies). Secondly, the fact is that they are always calling for dialogue. It is Israel that refuses to deal with the Palestinians under the lame excuse that it will not negotiate with Arafat. It was the Israelis who walked away from the talks at Taba. With respect ot the Palestinians are always wanting to have discussions. It was because of their efforts and the first intifada that Oslo took place. It is because of the second Intifada that the roadmap (a non-starter, IMO) was published by the 'quartet'. The Palestinians have fought for their rights and like other colonial peoples before them have they refused to roll over and play dead.
You don't justify your cause by dancing and celebrating in the streets after a terrorist event (9/11).
They weren't the only ones that danced. Like events occurred throughout the world. The celebrations (only some celebrated) took place before the extent of the damage was known. Moreover, Palestinians are bombed and attacked with American made weaponry daily. They know that America supports Israel because of the Zionist lobby in the States. That's why some of them were happy. Not completely unreasonable. And what about the Israelii's shooting the video and clapping?
Saddam's capture was a huge blow to the PA. Hamas admitted that this week.
Yes, Saddam supported the Palestinians morally and financially, when the other Arab countries sold out to the highest bidder. This doesn't make the Palestinians bad people. Just like doesn't make Americans bad people for having supported Saddam Hussein during the 1970s and 80s, when they knew he was carrying out huge atrocities. So I don't see why it should be any different when the role is reversed. If they the United States was more even handed and less biased, then one could argue that they would not have needed Saddam's financial support. After all, Israel receives billions thanks to the work of AIPAC and other lobby groups. In any event, the PA and Hamas are not connected. They are diametrically opposed to one another so one has to be a bit weary of what one says about other.
If I can recall PNMQureia said this week that he would pursue a one-state solution if necessary so that Israel would continue to have full legal and financial responsibility of the West Bank and Gaza. I thought they wanted their own state already.
You either misunderstood or a quoting out of context. Israel does not support the Palestinians. It never has because by doing so it will acknowledge that it created refugees, which in turn will mean that they have the right of return and the right to compensation. That is one of the biggest problems. That's why they don't even refer to it as the Occupied territories.It's the intrenational community that foots the bill.
You accuse the Israelis of ethnic cleansing. Didn't ethnic cleansing occur in your country too, when the native americans were shifted to reservations so that they would not pose a threat to the white population? More than any other nations Canada and the U.S. are guilty of ethnic cleansing. How come no one speaks about that injustice, since you are so passionate about human rights?
Indeed, it did occur here (and I it was a previous poster that was advocating it). It wasn't only ethnic cleansing, but it was genocide. Don't worry, I'm not a selective historian. I am more than willing to acknowledge wrongs done by my country. However, that happened hundreds of year ago -- although, sadly, Native peoples are still poorly treated here --, and the clock can not be reversed. The crimes being purportrated against the Palestinians, however, is taking place in the here and now. We should not let what happened to Native Americans happen again. Just because European colonialists mistreated Native Americans/Canadians, does not make it okay for Israel to mistreat Palestinians.
Who is the UN? Have they been appointed as the world's government? They can't do anything let alone tell a nation what to do.
The UN is the international community. It is the same body that legislated Israel into existence. In other words, if it wasn't for the UN, there would be no Israel. It is far from perfect, but the world is a better place with it (the UN, that is). And I am not defending any organization. I am trying to provide another side of the argument, although I am pro-Palestinian. I do not, however, supporate a separate state. For a two state solution to work the Palestinian state will haveto be equal and viable, not subordinate. This will not happen. Thus I suppport a binational state, with equal rights for both peoples. I think it's about time that the Palestinians start demanding one too.
As for G-d, we all live by His laws. We can't even bat an eyelash without Him allowing it. Zionist? Yes. Believer in G-d? Yes. Supporter of Israel? Yes. Supporter of a fair and equitable solution for the Palestinian people? Yes. Supporter of terror? No, and never will be. It's funny, some of the organizations you defend would find you to be an infidel.
Actually, we don't all live by any one god's laws, if at all. And many do not see god as a man. Be cognizant of that. As far as supporting terror...hmmm. Many, many people (more and more each day) would take the position that if you support Israel you support state sponsored terrorism. And if an organization consideres me an infidel, then so be it. That is their problem, not mine.
All the best.
I just started 'life' very, very young.
