Why Harry/Henry??

[Ish]

My 15 years of UK education in North Yorkshire and Oxford I have never been taught about Cromwell or the surrounding issues. I know of him from research through other areas of history.

That's scary.

In Canada (or at least the part that I live in) we go over English/British history from Henry VIII to Charles II, as well as the American and French Revolutions in grade 8 and 9 - before we even go into Canadian history. It's a bit disturbing if the British aren't learning about such a significant part of modern history but members of the Commonwealth are.

 

[EIIR]

I was certainly taught about the Civil War, Cromwell and the Glorious Revolution at my school in Northern Ireland. I vividly remember learning about 1066, Henry V, the Tudors, the mad George III, the Victorian era, right up to the two world wars. We also learned about other international events, not just English or British history.

I could well believe that a large chunk of the population wouldn't know about Cromwell. A sizeable proportion of schoolchildren, when asked who Churchill was will say a nodding dog who sells car insurance.

 

[cinrit]

I'm American, and I knew who Oliver Cromwell was before I turned 21. And that was ... well, quite some time ago!

 

[Ish]

The Spencer red hair dates back to Sarah, Duchess of Marlborough, who would be ecstatic to know that her direct descendant Prince William was the future king .

I don't know how common it's been in the Royals recently, but red hair has popped up before, notably the Tudors.

Prince Charles did say years ago that he planned to be known as George VII, but I can't see it. George VI chose to be known as George rather than Albert partly to show continuity with his father after all the upset of the Abdication and partly because (as with Edward VII) the name Albert was associated with the German Prince Albert, whereas George was seen as a British name ... er, despite not having been used by any British royals before the Hanoverians! Edward VII was known as Prince Edward even though his family called him Bertie: everyone knows Prince Charles as Charles and it would be totally weird to start calling him George!

I agree with you completely here. It should also be noted that in the few cases were a name other than the Prince's Christian name has become the regnal name there have been.. Circumstances. Victoria's given name had not simply been Victoria (I believe it was Alexandra or something similar), but she had been called Princess Victoria. Edward VII had been Prince Albert Edward (it had been his mother's desire that after him every monarch be Albert something), but he went against that when he became king, likely because his relationship with his father had been less than stellar. George VI had previously been known as Duke of York more than his given name, so people wouldn't have necessarily gotten used to calling him either Albert or Bertie. Similarly, while Edward VII had been called David by the family, he had been Prince Edward. To see Charles cease to be Charles and become George will/would be weird.

Regardless, though, we are getting a bit off topic.

 

[Trillian]

My 15 years of UK education in North Yorkshire and Oxford I have never been taught about Cromwell or the surrounding issues. I know of him from research through other areas of history.

We covered the Dark Ages, up to and including the Reformation period (UK and Europe), the Restoration of the British Monarchy in Junior High. From 1748 to 1945 UK (including the British / our monarchs) and other countries including our own in Modern History in the Senior School -Yrs11 &12.

This during the 70s in New South Wales. Not some much emphasis in it these days, but it's still part if our heritage, still being a Commonwealth Country.

 

[Mariel]

Oh goodness, Artemisea, I should have realized it was the press and Diana that distorted Prince Charles' statement about his son's red hair. He has been a loving father indeed.
I take it all back. But my comment about the early Stuarts is true. Ginger!

 

[Meadow]

Calling someone Harry instead of Harry has been around for donkeys years same as Jack/John, Richard/Dick (which thank goodness has gone out of fashion) Phillip/Phyliss can be Pip/Pippa. I doubt Diana honestly even thought about Oliver Cromwell chances are she liked the name there was a time she and Charles were close yet for some reason whatever she did was to spite Charles somehow. There are names we all like and a lot of girls think of what they will name their babies a long time before they have any. Diana worked in a nursery and loved kids and somewhere along the line she liked Oliver and William and Harry. I never heard of either boy being named after anyone in the family they were names the couple both liked and would go well with Prince and with their future roles. William gets called Wills and Henry get's Harry which actually suits him I think. Harry is a lot cheekeir sounding then the more straight Henry. My gran was called Gwen her whole life I never knew her name was in fact Gwendoline till after her death. As for the red hair I love boys with red hair I know some people don't but I've always had a soft spot for a red head and they are becoming more common so chances are the new baby could be a red head. I think Charles will be over the moon no matter what colour the babies hair is or it's name. Royals do have other considerations most of us don't have to worry about the press mucking about with our name.

 

[KittyAtlanta]

I don't think Diana wanted to spite Charles (it was a good time for them, I think). I think she liked the name from the popular musical of the time, Oliver!

I would never believe she would, at that time, had even a smidge of thinking about Oliver Cromwell.

 

[Ish]

I don't think Diana wanted to spite Charles (it was a good time for them, I think). I think she liked the name from the popular musical of the time, Oliver!

I would never believe she would, at that time, had even a smidge of thinking about Oliver Cromwell.

I doubt she wanted it to spite Charles at all. My comment is more that however well intended the name might have been - it was popular, she just liked it, it was a family name, whatever - it still would have been rather tacky. Giving the heir to the British throne's second son the name of the Lord Protector is tacky, no matter the intent. Her desire to have named her first son after her father is understandable, and the whole idea of "John" being cursed in the BRF isn't one that people necessarily realize. As the spouse to the heir to the British throne, however, she should have realized that Oliver as a name would have been a bit inappropriate.

Although, given the way their relationship ended, I do find it a bit ironic that the next King Charles (if he goes with that name) almost had a son named Oliver.

 

[Pranter]

I could see Diana not knowing about Charles/Oliver, she said herself she wasn't good a school and was a thick as a plank about some things.

She was still very young when she had Harry and I don't recall anyone ever talking about her love of 'ancient' British History.


LaRae

 

[Osipi]

Actualy, Oliver Cromwell was the first person I thought of when it was mentioned she had been thinking of the name Oliver. It really is a popular name now, my new great grandson has it for a middle name.

One other thing too. I would imagine that even if Charles had assented to Oliver, HM would put a quick veto on it.

 

[Tiggersk8]

I stumbled across this the other night and since it's about Harry...

YouTube ~ Prince Harry's Christening & William Being A Little Devil! - 1984

I love HM teasing Zara about the new puppy.

 

[Ish]

I stumbled across this the other night and since it's about Harry...

YouTube ~ Prince Harry's Christening & William Being A Little Devil! - 1984

I love HM teasing Zara about the new puppy.

Okay, that was the cutest thing ever. I love how even though they're the BRF they still act (at least with the children at that age) like any other art of parents/grandparents/great-grandparents/cousins.

Question, regarding the christening gown. It's said early on in the clip that the gown Harry is wearing was used for the christenings of Prince Charles, "Granny" (HM), and "Great-Granny" (QEQM). Would it have also been used for other Royals - the Queen's younger children or her sister, or any of the other BRF grandchildren or even her great grandchildren?

 

[Tiggersk8]

I don't know why Diana said Great Granny was also christened in it, because if she meant QEQM, she wasn't. HM certainly was and AFAIK, all of the Royals used it, including Princess Margaret's children and grandchildren up to Lady Louise. By the time it was used for Louise, the lace had become too fragile and HM commissioned a brand new replica to be used from now on.

Reason I know it was used for Margaret's grandchildren is because there's a gorgeous B&W out there w/the Queen Mum holding one of Lady Sarah Chatto's sons after his Christening.

 

[NGalitzine]

The gown began its life in Queen Victorias time and was used by ,many of her British descendents up until quite recently. It has now been retired and restored. A copy of it was made. I believe James, Viscount Severn was the first to be christened wearing the new gown.
It would not have been used for the Christening of the Queen Mother as she was born a Bowes Lyon and not a member of the royal family.

 

[Ish]

I don't know why Diana said Great Granny was also christened in it, because if she meant QEQM, she wasn't. HM certainly was and AFAIK, all of the Royals used it, including Princess Margaret's children and grandchildren up to Lady Louise. By the time it was used for Louise, the lace had become too fragile and HM commissioned a brand new replica to be used from now on.

Reason I know it was used for Margaret's grandchildren is because there's a gorgeous B&W out there w/the Queen Mum holding one of Lady Sarah Chatto's sons after his Christening.

Maybe Diana meant to add a few more "greats" in there, although I don't know if Queen Victoria's grandchildren referred to her as "Granny."

The gown began its life in Queen Victorias time and was used by ,many of her British descendents up until quite recently. It has now been retired and restored. A copy of it was made. I believe James, Viscount Severn was the first to be christened wearing the new gown.
It would not have been used for the Christening of the Queen Mother as she was born a Bowes Lyon and not a member of the royal family.

When Diana uses the name "Great Granny" in the clip I assumed she meant QEQM, implying that it was of Bowes Lyon origin. I guess either she was wrong in the use of "Great Granny" or I was wrong in the assumption that she meant QEQM.

 

[Sister Morphine]

I personally don't understand the confusion between the fact his given name is Henry and he chooses to be called Harry. My name is Elizabeth and hardly anyone calls me that. I prefer Beth, and that's what I've always been called. It doesn't mean my parents should have just named me Beth instead. They had their reasons for naming me Elizabeth, the same as Charles and Diana had their reasons for naming him Henry. It's an old, established name in the royal family, and they clearly had a fondness for it. Harry is merely a nickname, and besides.....Henry is a very formal name. For a baby, which he was at the time, Harry was perfect. He's chosen to keep with it, rather than revert to the more "grown-up" name.

It's no different than someone named Margaret going by Meg or Maggie, or someone name Jennifer going by Jen or Jenny.

 

[Artemisia]

When Diana uses the name "Great Granny" in the clip I assumed she meant QEQM, implying that it was of Bowes Lyon origin. I guess either she was wrong in the use of "Great Granny" or I was wrong in the assumption that she meant QEQM.

Perhaps Diana meant Princess Alice of Battenberg (Prince Philip's mother)? She was born at Windsor Castle in the presence of Queen Victoria, although the christening took place in Darmstadt. As a great-granddaughter of Queen Victoria, I find it entirely plausible Alice was christened wearing the gown.

 

[Ish]

Perhaps Diana meant Princess Alice of Battenberg (Prince Philip's mother)? She was born at Windsor Castle in the presence of Queen Victoria, although the christening took place in Darmstadt. As a great-granddaughter of Queen Victoria, I find it entirely plausible Alice was christened wearing the gown.

That is a really logical explanation. I'm pretty sure that Princess Alice was no longer alive at the time, but she still would have been Great Granny and may have been christened in the gown.

Another explanation is that she meant Great Grandad, in reference to George VI, who would most likely have been christened in it too.

 

[LauraS3514]

The Spencer red hair dates back to Sarah, Duchess of Marlborough, who would be ecstatic to know that her direct descendant Prince William was the future king .

(snip)

Prince Charles did say years ago that he planned to be known as George VII, but I can't see it. George VI chose to be known as George rather than Albert partly to show continuity with his father after all the upset of the Abdication and partly because (as with Edward VII) the name Albert was associated with the German Prince Albert, whereas George was seen as a British name ... er, despite not having been used by any British royals before the Hanoverians! Edward VII was known as Prince Edward even though his family called him Bertie: everyone knows Prince Charles as Charles and it would be totally weird to start calling him George!

Not quite - the brother between Edward IV and Richard III was George, Duke of Clarence and one of Edward's sons who died in infancy was named after him. So there's two royal Georges who were Plantagenets.

 

[Ish]

Not quite - the brother between Edward IV and Richard III was George, Duke of Clarence and one of Edward's sons who died in infancy was named after him. So there's two royal Georges who were Plantagenets.

I think, and I could be wrong, Alison more meant there's been no British monarchs named George other than the Hanovers (and of course, the Windsors).

 

[EIIR]

We know that Charles in a passionate Shakespeare fan, so will undoubtedly be aware of the iconic line from Henry V, Act 3, Scene 1:

Cry 'God for Harry, England, and Saint George!'

It would seem that 'Harry' has been a somewhat informal substitute for Henry for rather a long time.

 

[cinrit]

Henry Percy, to whom Anne Boleyn was supposedly betrothed before Henry VIII set eyes on her, was called Harry Percy. So yes, it's been used as a nickname for Henry for a very long time.

 

[cepe]

6 pages and with the last post, I think this is where we came in ........

 

[Warren]

...given the way their relationship ended, I do find it a bit ironic that the next King Charles...almost had a son named Oliver.

...and Oliver Hoare would be mortified if he had.

 

[CyrilVladisla]

So many people, including the press, refer to His Royal Highness as Harry.
Suppose one day that the Prince announces: "My first name is and always was Henry. I have decide that I shall now only answer to Prince Henry or Henry. Harry is in the past."
This would show that Prince Henry is developing a definite interest in FORMALITY.
​

Queen Elizabeth II's paternal uncle, Prince Henry, Duke of Gloucester, was sometimes referred to as Harry by family members.

Prince Henry may be referred to as Harry, but he signed his first name as Henry when it came time to register as a witness for his brother William's wedding.

 

[JessRulz]

I would imagine that considering he has been called Harry by his family, friends and work colleagues his entire life, it would be highly unlikely that that would happen.

He is only referred to as Henry in the Court Circular. Not even on his official website.

 

[MichelleQ2]

During one of the interviews during the queens jubilee (possibly the Katie Couric interview), he was referred as "Prince Henry of Wales" I think it is nice to use the more formal name and title when necessary.

 

[Curryong]

He closed the London Olympics on behalf of his grandmother as Prince Henry of Wales. I remember jokes at the time about people looking round when the name was announced and saying "Who?"

I like the name Harry, though, it suits his personality. He's given the name a new lease of life. When I was growing up virtually the only Harrys you ever met were old men born before the First World War!

 

[MARG]

During one of the interviews during the queens jubilee (possibly the Katie Couric interview), he was referred as "Prince Henry of Wales" I think it is nice to use the more formal name and title when necessary.

To be honest the UK and Commonwealth seem to have no problem at all with the original announcement after his birth stating that he was to be named Henry and called Harry by his family and up until now it is only on formal documents that we see Prince Henry.

As you mention Katie Couric did refer to him as Henry and I often see people on the board, particularly from the US, who seem adamant about calling him Henry. I find it odd on two scores. Firstly, I keep looking around for the illusive Henry and secondly because the US is the home of John's called Jack! Go figure! adamant