Titles, Surname and Nationality of the Greek Royal Family, Part 2, 2024 -


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Haha I hasn't even thought about it meaning they now have EU citizenship. I guess though that is only something for some of them - I assume some of the others must already have it, Alexia's family for example? The reality is with the way MC and Pavlos' children travel, does it make that much difference? But yes, it can't be ruled out.

I do keep reading articles (many probably from the same wire source) which say things like "now they renounce their titles and have the surname "de Grece". I can't imagine they'll stop using them though?

Edit - what the deal with their Danish side. Do they have royal titles from being grandchildren of a Danish King? So even if they renounce Greek titles are they keeping Danish ones?
 
Haha I hasn't even thought about it meaning they now have EU citizenship. I guess though that is only something for some of them - I assume some of the others must already have it, Alexia's family for example? The reality is with the way MC and Pavlos' children travel, does it make that much difference? But yes, it can't be ruled out.

I do keep reading articles (many probably from the same wire source) which say things like "now they renounce their titles and have the surname "de Grece". I can't imagine they'll stop using them though?

Edit - what the deal with their Danish side. Do they have royal titles from being grandchildren of a Danish King? So even if they renounce Greek titles are they keeping Danish ones?
They don't have any titles from Anne-Marie. The title Prince/ss of Greece and Denmark is from Georgios I of Greece having been a Danish prince before being a Hellenic king and all Greek dynasts bear the title.
 
I thought that, I saw a few Greek reports referring to him as Prince Paul of Denmark and wondered if I had missed something.
 
If they only did it for the EU citizenship I’m really going to roll my eyes.

Note, please, for the "pragmatic" camp: do you think they should give who-knows-what up in exchange for this and that there is then no issue the next time MC or Olympia wears a tiara (particularly Queen Sophia’s giant diamond one)?
That's fine. you can roll your eyes. I think it's perfectly acceptable.
 
Note, please, for the "pragmatic" camp: do you think they should give who-knows-what up in exchange for this and that there is then no issue the next time MC or Olympia wears a tiara (particularly Queen Sophia’s giant diamond one)?
Who's ever had any issues with the Greek ladies wearing their tiaras?
 
I thought that, I saw a few Greek reports referring to him as Prince Paul of Denmark and wondered if I had missed something.
Don't trust how the Greek Press is calling the Royals. They ignore titles differences and protocols.
Such as ... calling à Queen ... Highness. Or a Serene Highness .... Majesty.

They also cannot understand the difference between King Constantine of the Hellénes (abolished 1974) and His Majesty King Constantine.. title which remains for life.

He is (was) former King of Greece... but he will always bear the title of King (once a King always King)
There is difference.
 
Who's ever had any issues with the Greek ladies wearing their tiaras?
I don't see any issue here. Anyone who owns a tiara can wear it when appropriate. There is no rule that only aristocrats or royals can wear tiaras.

Besides, why wouldn't the ladies of the former Greek royal family wear their family jewels and heirloms? That has nothing to do with their citizenship status or their allegiance to the Hellenic Republic.

A more sensitive issue in my opinion is whether they will keep wearing the Greek dynastic orders or not. I am not sure, but I assume it might be illegal to do so in Greece. That wouldn't prevent them from wearing them outside Greece (for example, when they are invited to white-tie galas in foreign countries), but I suppose that could be interpreted as a violation of the oath they took when they became Greek citizens, or maybe not (it is controversial to say the least).

The agnatic descendants of King Victor Emmanuel III for example had to swear allegiance to the Italian Republic to be allowed to return from exile to Italy, but they keep wearing and granting the Savoy dynastic orders. The Savoy orders are, however, a corporation with its seat, I think, in Switzerland (?). It is in fact the Savoy family's business and they make money out of it. Wearing the orders in Italy itself is theoretically forbidden, but that doesn't seem to be strictly enforced (again, I am not sure). The Savoys definitely wear them outside of Italy to say the least.

Edit - what the deal with their Danish side. Do they have royal titles from being grandchildren of a Danish King? So even if they renounce Greek titles are they keeping Danish ones?
I am not sure.

The common claim used to be that all male-line descendants of King Christian IX had the title of Prins/Prinsesse af Danmark, but all descendants of Christian X (both in paternal or maternal line) who were in the line of succession under the Act of Succession of 1953 had the title instead of Prins/Prinsesse til Danmark. However, at least the latter has been now contradicted by the fact that Prince Joachim's children, who are descendants in maternal line of Christian X and are in the line of succession to the Danish throne, have been nonetheless stripped of the title of Prins/Prinsesse til Danmark and are now only Greve/Komtesse af Monpezat, which is a title in the Danish nobility, rather than a royal title.

If Joachim's children are no longer princes/princesses, despite being successors to the Danish throne, it would be illogical in my opinion for King Constantine's descendants, who are not in the Danish line of succession, to be considered Danish princes/princesses, even though they are male-line descendants of Christian IX.

But, again, I am not sure. Maybe the Danish members can clarify.
 
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If they only did it for the EU citizenship I’m really going to roll my eyes.

Note, please, for the "pragmatic" camp: do you think they should give who-knows-what up in exchange for this and that there is then no issue the next time MC or Olympia wears a tiara (particularly Queen Sophia’s giant diamond one)?
Why would that be an issue? They own these pieces of jewellery, they can certainly wear them.
Also the Savoys, among others, swore allegiance to the Republic when they were allowed back to Italy after 56 years in 2002, and they continued to wear tiaras belonging to former Queens of Italy (for example, Marina wore her mother-in-law's rather impressive Musy Tiara at the Danish Royal wedding in 2004)
 
Which makes perfect sense really when you think that even Countess Alexandra’s second husband had one. Constantine was the husband of a Danish Princess after all.
 
Which makes perfect sense really when you think that even Countess Alexandra’s second husband had one. Constantine was the husband of a Danish Princess after all.
And a former ruling King descendant from the Danish RF
 
They don't have any titles from Anne-Marie. The title Prince/ss of Greece and Denmark is from Georgios I of Greece having been a Danish prince before being a Hellenic king and all Greek dynasts bear the title.
But that doesn't make sense, why on earth is a dead King's words/promises being kept? especially since he made this agreement when he became the King of Greece and not the Danish one?

I don’t understand what Pavlos and family and siblings (except maybe Nik) get out of this. Even assuming you can’t give up something the Greek government doesn’t recognize anyway… it feels cheap. That they had to wait until the King was gone screams volumes.
More so they had to wait until a government that isn't so hostile to them. But I agree.

And Pavlos' children, by the same logic, lose nothing since they were never "natural Greeks" to begin with, but now have the privilege of being citizens of 3 countries (the US, the UK, and Greece, with the latter also giving them EU citizenship).
I assume they have a Danish passport as well?
 
But that doesn't make sense, why on earth is a dead King's words/promises being kept? especially since he made this agreement when he became the King of Greece and not the Danish one?
I'm afraid I don't know what you mean. Since the time of Georgios I all Greek dynasts have born the title Prince/ss of Greece and Denmark. Until 1953, they had succession rights in Denmark because they were descendants of a Greek/Danish prince.

I assume they have a Danish passport as well?
I doubt it.

The Danish diplomatic passport was to address the fact that, in 1994, Anne-Marie, Constantine and their five children were temporarily rendered stateless when Greece revoked their citizenship. Until then, they had all had Greek nationality and passports.

The grandchildren and in-laws of Anne-Marie and Constantine have had citizenship either through birth in a nation that grants citizenship to those born there or through their other parent. Marie-Chantal would have passed down her American nationality (and four of the children were born in the US, which grants nationality to all people born on US soil) and Alexia's children would have Spanish nationality both by being born in Spain and by having a Spanish parent (Carlos).
 
I'm afraid I don't know what you mean. Since the time of Georgios I all Greek dynasts have born the title Prince/ss of Greece and Denmark. Until 1953, they had succession rights in Denmark because they were descendants of a Greek/Danish prince.
Is it a legal document? It makes no sense imo that Margrethe could strip her own grandchildren of titles but not her greek great-nieces/nephews.
 
Is it a legal document? It makes no sense imo that Margrethe could strip her own grandchildren of titles but not her greek great-nieces/nephews.
The 1953 constitution is a legal document and has nothing to do with Margrethe. It also has nothing to do with titles. It has to do with who has the right to sit on the throne of Denmark. Until 1953, the Greek dynasts had Danish succession rights. After the 1953 change, they didn't, but that didn't change their title.
 
Is it a legal document? It makes no sense imo that Margrethe could strip her own grandchildren of titles but not her greek great-nieces/nephews.
If you go back and look at the conversation in the threads related to Joachim's children's titles, you can read all about it.

The Greeks derive their Danish titles from Prince William of Denmark, who became George I of Greece. That was a special arrangement when he took the Greek throne, different even from the one for his nephew Prince Carl of Denmark, who became Haakon VII of Norway. Carl/Haakon's descendants are also in the male line, but they do not hold Danish titles.

So, Margrethe would have had to go back and undo a 160-year-old agreement regarding the Greek royals to remove her nieces' and nephews' Danish titles. It probably wouldn't have been worth reopening all that, since they don't use the Danish titles much in their commercial activities, and they are not in line for the Danish throne.

Plus, I've always had the impression that Christian X's purpose in keeping George I's male-line descendants as Danish princes was to ensure they had a lifeline in case the Greek throne collapsed, which it did several times. If the current generation hadn't had Queen Anne-Marie's tie to Denmark, having that historical Danish title might have been helpful in securing passports.
 
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So, Margrethe would have had to go back and undo a 160-year-old agreement regarding the Greek royals to remove her nieces' and nephews' Danish titles. It probably wouldn't have been worth reopening all that, since they don't use the Danish titles much in their commercial activities, and they are not in line for the Danish throne.
Why wouldn't it be worth reopening all that? so she can easily take away her grandchildren's titles but can't be bothered to do away with a legal document? Why is a dead king's wishes still being upheld just because he wanted titles for his descendants?
 
Why wouldn't it be worth reopening all that? so she can easily take away her grandchildren's titles but can't be bothered to do away with a legal document? Why is a dead king's wishes still being upheld just because he wanted titles for his descendants?
Why bother? The Greek royals don't seem to be inhibited by their Danish titles, and their activities are no reflection on the Danish royal house.
 
All desendents of Prince William-King George's I of the Hellenes buried in Tatoi are buried with double titles, both greek and Danish. Bond with Denmark was never muted, even before Anne-Marie wed King Konstantine. Out of the tomb I'm not sure if they use both titles in social life , such us in a wedding invitation or else.
Need to check if.
 
So, Margrethe would have had to go back and undo a 160-year-old agreement regarding the Greek royals to remove her nieces' and nephews' Danish titles. It probably wouldn't have been worth reopening all that, since they don't use the Danish titles much in their commercial activities, and they are not in line for the Danish throne.
Margrethe can not do anything about it anymore as she is no longer in that position. That would be Frederik now.
 
The grandchildren and in-laws of Anne-Marie and Constantine have had citizenship either through birth in a nation that grants citizenship to those born there or through their other parent. Marie-Chantal would have passed down her American nationality (and four of the children were born in the US, which grants nationality to all people born on US soil) and Alexia's children would have Spanish nationality both by being born in Spain and by having a Spanish parent (Carlos).
Marie-Chantal is a British citizen otherwise than by descent since she was born in the UK before 1983, i.e., when the UK still had unrestricted Jus soli citizenship. On the other hand. Marie-Chantal is also a US citizen by descent as she was born outside the United States in 1968 to a father who was a US citizen by birth (Robert Miller) and who, prior to her birth, had resided in the United States for at least 10 years, five of which after the age of 14 (which were the requirements at the time for transmission of US citizenship to foreign-born children of only one US citizen parent).

Four of Marie-Chantal's children (Maria-Olympia, Constantine-Alexios, Achileas-Andreas, and Aristides-Stavros) were born in the United States, so they are natural-born US citizens under the 14th amendment to the US constitution. Having been born outside the United Kingdom after 1983 to a British citizen otherwise than by descent, they also acquired British citizenship at birth under the terms of the British Nationality Act 1981.

The most complicated situation is that of Marie-Chantal's other son, Odysseas-Kimon. Unlike his siblings, Odysseas was born in the United Kingdom rather than the United States. Having been born in the UK after 1983 to at least one parent who is a British citizen (in his case, Marie-Chantal), he also became a British citizen automatically at birth under the British Nationality Act 1981. As Odysseas was not born in the United States, he is not entitled to Jus soli US citizenship as his siblings. However, having been born in London in 2004 to a mother who was a US citizen at the time of hs birth, he would have acquired US citizenship by descent at birth as long his mother, at any time prior to his birth, had resided in the United States for at least 5 years, two of which after the age of 14. I suppose Marie-Chantal satisfied those residency requirements at the time of Odysseas' birth, but I am not sure. Can anyone clarify?

In summary, barring the required clarification about Odysseas that was mentioned above, my understanding is that all of Marie-Chantal's children should be both US and British citizens. In addition, they are now also Greek citizens and, by implication, also citizens of the European Union.
 
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Margrethe can not do anything about it anymore as she is no longer in that position. That would be Frederik now.
That's true, but if you re-read my post, you'll see that I was referring to several years ago when Margrethe removed the princely titles from Joachim's children. That's why I had everything in the past tense. :)
 
Members of the former Greek RF had Danish diplomatic passports but not Danish citizenship! This was established when their status was debated in the Danish parliament some twenty years ago! I doubt that they could marry according to Danish law, however any legal rights accorded to the family have not been disclosed publicly! Again, I doubt it was the case; it would have created resentment towards the Danish RF if - more or less - distant family members not living in Denmark had privileges not so easily accorded to others!
 
Members of the former Greek RF had Danish diplomatic passports but not Danish citizenship! This was established when their status was debated in the Danish parliament some twenty years ago! I doubt that they could marry according to Danish law, however any legal rights accorded to the family have not been disclosed publicly! Again, I doubt it was the case; it would have created resentment towards the Danish RF if - more or less - distant family members not living in Denmark had privileges not so easily accorded to others!
But Queen Anne-Marie is born Danish citizen. Doesn't she transmit it to her children ?
 
I find the nationality issues very confusing. Maybe someone can explain. Just to sort it out, Anne Marie is Danish, her husband was Greek. Their children weren't born in Greece IIRC. So which nationality do they have, both or just one? Then, Pavlos is married to an US American, the children were born in the US or Britain? That puts the question what nationality they have. I don't even want to get further with the other children, it does get very complicated with this extended family, which is so internationally connected.
 
Chrysi Vardinogiannis doesn't have a princess title?
On the website of the Greek Royal House it appears without a title.
Tatiana Blatnik now also appears without the title of princess.

 
I'm afraid I don't know what you mean. Since the time of Georgios I all Greek dynasts have born the title Prince/ss of Greece and Denmark. Until 1953, they had succession rights in Denmark because they were descendants of a Greek/Danish prince.


I doubt it.

The Danish diplomatic passport was to address the fact that, in 1994, Anne-Marie, Constantine and their five children were temporarily rendered stateless when Greece revoked their citizenship. Until then, they had all had Greek nationality and passports.

The grandchildren and in-laws of Anne-Marie and Constantine have had citizenship either through birth in a nation that grants citizenship to those born there or through their other parent. Marie-Chantal would have passed down her American nationality (and four of the children were born in the US, which grants nationality to all people born on US soil) and Alexia's children would have Spanish nationality both by being born in Spain and by having a Spanish parent (Carlos).
Marie-Chantal's children are dual British/American citizens. Olympia. Alexios, Achilleas,, and Aristidis are US citizens by birth and British citizens by descent. Odysseas is a British citizen by birth and probably a US citizen by descent, as Marie-Chantal probably satisfied the minimum USA residence requirements to pass on US citizenship to foreign-born children when Odysseas was born.

Marie Chantal herself is also a British citizen by birth and a US citizen by descent.
 
I find the nationality issues very confusing. Maybe someone can explain. Just to sort it out, Anne Marie is Danish, her husband was Greek. Their children weren't born in Greece IIRC. So which nationality do they have, both or just one? Then, Pavlos is married to an US American, the children were born in the US or Britain? That puts the question what nationality they have. I don't even want to get further with the other children, it does get very complicated with this extended family, which is so internationally connected.
Two eldest of their children were born in Greece; Alexia - in Mon Repos, Pavlos - at Tatoi Palace.

Nikolaos - in Rome.

Theodora and Philippos - in London.


All Alexia's children were born in Barcelona.
 
I find the nationality issues very confusing. Maybe someone can explain. Just to sort it out, Anne Marie is Danish, her husband was Greek. Their children weren't born in Greece IIRC. So which nationality do they have, both or just one? Then, Pavlos is married to an US American, the children were born in the US or Britain? That puts the question what nationality they have. I don't even want to get further with the other children, it does get very complicated with this extended family, which is so internationally connected.
Everything depends on the law of each country.

In Greece we have Jus sanguinis, (Right of blood) it means that children of Greek citizens are by right Greeks also. Wherever they are born.
On the other side Jus soli does not apply. It means that children of foreigners, born in Greece don't have the right to become automatically Greeks.
Now for the Grrek Royal family. Late King's 5 children (2 born in Greece and 3 abroad) are entitled to the Greek citizenship, because of their father. The issue is that around 1990 (not sure of the exact date) the then Greek government deprived the whole family from their Greek citizenship (it is a separate thread for this) They regained it just 2 months ago.
As for the Danish side, no idea if Queen Anne-Marie born Danish citizen has transmitted her citizenship to her 5 kids, because I don’t know what the Danish law prevails. Our Danish friends could help maybe.
 
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