Titles, Surname and Nationality of the Greek Royal Family, Part 2, 2024 -


If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
I think, and this is my opinion, that Prince Pavlos and the other members were hasty in choosing the surname De Gres, because, and this is my opinion, it would have been nicer to use his father's name, Constantine, as a surname.
But I also have the feeling that this is a very quick, very hasty decision, and that perhaps they have chosen De Gres because it was already registered in the register of Athens , and this makes the process very fast
 
the surmane is ΝΤΕ ΓΚΡΕΣ, its sound is De Gres.
This is the surname that Prince Michel created in 2004 when he acquired Greek nationality. He took his surname in his French passport, De Grèce, and its sound, De Gres, into the Greek alphabet, resulting in De Gres.

Makes me wonder if Queen Sofia of Spain, that we have known all our lives as Reina Sofia de Grecia y Borbon, will stay as it is while her family now goes for De Gres/De Grecia as in the place holder last name is now an official family surname.
 
Makes me wonder if Queen Sofia of Spain, that we have known all our lives as Reina Sofia de Grecia y Borbon, will stay as it is while her family now goes for De Gres/De Grecia as in the place holder last name is now an official family surname.
Nothing will change for Queen Sofia because she will not apply for Greek citizenship for obvious reasons. Just as Queen Anne-Marie and Princess Irene also did not apply for Greek nationality.
 
Not to restate the obvious, but how can Pavlos (or any of them) be Crown Prince and Princes and Princesses when they just had to renounce any ties with the monarchy? No wonder he doesn’t want to talk.

But why does citizenship in a country where most of them don’t live and has treated them with such disdain mean more than their birthright? I’m not even seeing what the practical gain is.
 
Makes me wonder if Queen Sofia of Spain, that we have known all our lives as Reina Sofia de Grecia y Borbon, will stay as it is while her family now goes for De Gres/De Grecia as in the place holder last name is now an official family surname.
Sofia is not Borbon? She is known as Sofia of Greece and Denmark? Borbon only comes from JC and therefore the children, including Felipe are "de Borbon y Grecia".
 
Should we expect Pavlos' sons to enroll for military service in Greece now? Or are they exempt for living abroad?
No, they can do it if they want to, but they can also be exempt for living abroad. There are also ways not to enroll even when living in Greece.
I am sure that Pavlos has thought it through. I believe he is right. His decision is very realistic, there was no reason living an impossible, as it proved, dream, when all you want is to have citizen rights.
Constantine and my dear Anne Marie belonged to another era, I totally understand their point of view as well. But the times have changed and Pavlos hasn't actually ever seemed interested in fulfilling the Crown Prince role. It seems a very logical move.
 
Sofia is not Borbon? She is known as Sofia of Greece and Denmark? Borbon only comes from JC and therefore the children, including Felipe are "de Borbon y Grecia".
Agreed. Queen Sofia has never been known in Spain as "Sofia of Greece and Borbon". She's always been Sofia of Greece and Denmark.

It's against the law in Spain for women, even a Queen, to take their husband's surname after marriage.
 
Not to restate the obvious, but how can Pavlos (or any of them) be Crown Prince and Princes and Princesses when they just had to renounce any ties with the monarchy? No wonder he doesn’t want to talk.

But why does citizenship in a country where most of them don’t live and has treated them with such disdain mean more than their birthright? I’m not even seeing what the practical gain is.
There is no Crown Prince or any Princes/Princesses in the Hellenic Republic, which abolished those titles. So Pavlos and his family renouncing their ties to the monarchy in my opinion does not have a material impact on their right to use their titles in Greece,, as such right did not exist already in the first place..

It is not exactlty the same, but the Savoys had to go through a similar situation to be allowed to return from exile: they had to swear allegiance to the Italian Republic.

Sofia is not Borbon? She is known as Sofia of Greece and Denmark? Borbon only comes from JC and therefore the children, including Felipe are "de Borbon y Grecia".
Sofia is legally referred to only as "Sofía de Grecia" in the Spanish royal decrees. Her children use the surname "de Borbón y Grecia".

As far as I understand, it is not customary for married women to take their husbands' names in Spain.
 
Sofia is legally referred to only as "Sofía de Grecia" in the Spanish royal decrees. Her children use the surname "de Borbón y Grecia".

As far as I understand, it is not customary for married women to take their husbands' names in Spain.
It's not just "customary" in Spain for married women to take their husband's surname, as in many anglo saxon countries.

It's actually against the law in Spain.

ETA By law in Spain we all have 2 surnames. It used to be father's surname first, second's the mother. That changed years ago. Parents can choose the maternal surname first if they want to. What none of us Spaniards can do is to take a spouse surname because of marriage.

Queen Sofia has always been legally known as Sofia of Greece and Denmark. Just as Leonor is known as Leonor Borbon Ortiz.
 
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It's not just "customary" in Spain for married women to take their husband's surname, as in many anglo saxon countries.

It's actually against the law in Spain.

ETA By law in Spain we all have 2 surnames. It used to be father's surname first, second's the mother. That changed years ago. Parents can choose the maternal surname first if they want to. What none of us Spaniards can do is to take a spouse surname because of marriage.

Queen Sofia has always been legally known as Sofia of Greece and Denmark. Just as Leonor is known as Leonor Borbon Ortiz.
We are going off-topic, but I believe Queen Sofia uses only the surname "de Grecia" without any reference to Denmark, see for example the Royal Decree 470/2014:

Doña Sofía de Grecia, madre del Rey Don Felipe VI, continuará vitaliciamente en el uso con carácter honorífico del título de Reina, con tratamiento de Majestad y honores análogos a los establecidos para la Princesa o el Príncipe de Asturias consortes en dicho Real Decreto.
 
Her name on a royal decree is not her full legal name under Spanish law.

ETA. Queen Sofia was born as Sophia Margaret Victoria Frederica of Greece and Denmark. And that's her full name under Spanish law.
 
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But why not as Sofia of Grecia y Hannover, as that would be after both her parents?

I can't answer that question. I think there were political and diplomatic issues by adopting Denmark instead of Hannover at difficult times for the family.

I may be wrong and posters, specialising in history, can shed more light on this.

ETA. Prince Pavlos has kept the same legal surnames as Queen Sofia - Pavlos of Greece and Denmark while Felipe his cousin is legally known as Felipe of Borbon and Grecia. There are obviously family connections and diplomatic issues involved, which escapes my knowledge.
 
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What is "of Greece" in Greek and its phonetic translation?*

It does not sound like an official reason has been given, but it seems to me that they took the French variant in order to acknowledge the connection to Greece but not be too on the nose in order to not appear as if they are passing themselves off as official Greek representatives, which may have been the case if they selected the Greek variant. Although according to the Guardian article, some have accused the Greek royals of creating confusion even with the French variant.

*ETA:
OK I used Google translate and "of Greece" translated to "της Ελλάδας" "tis Elládas".

ETA2:
My thought was that "tis Elládas" is tied more to the term Hellenes than to the term Greece. I did some more googling and that seems to be correct but hopefully someone fluent in Greek can confirm.
 
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Her name on a royal decree is not her full legal name under Spanish law.

ETA. Queen Sofia was born as Sophia Margaret Victoria Frederica of Greece and Denmark. And that's her full name under Spanish law.
Really. I always thought all born members of the greek RF have only one name and not a string of names like many other nobles. Have also never seen more names list for Sophie/Sofia other than this one
 
Really. I always thought all born members of the greek RF have only one name and not a string of names like many other nobles. Have also never seen more names list for Sophie/Sofia other than this one

It may be so in countries where legally only one surname is necessary.

Not in Spain where, under the law, we have 2 surnames.

This is why often lack of knowledge of specific country's laws can lead to misunderstandings.

ETA As to queen Sofia given names, the majority of royals have several ones but are only known by their first.
 
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So if I was born Amanda Smith, the daughter of Bob Smith and Eve Jones and I married Stephen Martin and changed my name to Amanda Martin. If for some reason I migrated to Spain, my legal name in Spain would be Amanda Smith y Jones . Martin could not be part of my name but my child Penelope would be Penelope Martin y Smith or possibly Penelope Smith y Martin. I hope that is correct.
 
ETA As to queen Sofia given names, the majority of royals have several ones but are only known by their first.
I meant her given names, not the surnames. And if you look at an Online Gotha which is quiet accurate she and all other members of the greek Rf are listed with only one given name Greece
 
Does this mean Pavlos and the others have renounced their titles, too? If they’re accepting the government and adopting a new last name, I would think so.
 
According to what is stipulated in article 6, paragraph 5 of law 2215/1994 of Evangelos Venizelos, This is what the members of the royal family who have accepted the passport have had to declare:


An explicit and unconditional declaration of respect for the Constitution, acceptance and recognition of the Presidential Parliamentary Democracy and the result of the referendum of December 8, 1974, which determined in a manner not subject to change, was made before the Athens registrar polity(They recognize that the Republic is unalterable in Greece)

To declare, explicitly and unreservedly, before the same registrar, a waiver of any kind of claims related to the past exercise of a civil office or the possession of any title. Subsequently, to be registered in the registers of persons or in the municipal registers of the municipality or community of the state with name, surname and other necessary identification data by law. The presence of the above conditions is established by a decision of the Minister of the Interior, where the relevant documents will be sent in accordance with what is stipulated by law.
 
As I understand it they have to accept the government, in regards to tiles they are basically at an impasse as the government doesn’t recognise them now anyway so can’t strip them or renounce them as in their eyes they don’t exist.
 
Agreed. Queen Sofia has never been known in Spain as "Sofia of Greece and Borbon". She's always been Sofia of Greece and Denmark.

It's against the law in Spain for women, even a Queen, to take their husband's surname after marriage.
:oops:
You are right, and I'm afraid I caused the surname chaos because I did a typo on "....that we have known all our lives as Reina Sofia de Grecia y Borbon" when I meant de Grecia y Dinamarca and left the thread not checking the post.

🤦‍♂️Mea culpa on the typo but I see it helped to engage in an interesting surname conversation!

Bonus Trivia moment:
And speaking on Greek Royals and their surnames or lack thereof, Queen Sofia's name ( Σοφία Μαργαρίτα Βικτωρία Φρειδερίκη / Sofía Margarita Victoria Federica or Sophie Margaret Victoria Frederica of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg, Princess of Greece and Denmark) was used by another Sofia, that is like a lookalike of her: Princess Sophie of Greece and Denmark
 
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Sofia's first surname is "de Grecia" but legally it is not clear what her second surname is, and the Royal Family's website does not even use it.

In 2018, Irene received Spanish nationality, and in the Official State Gazette she appears as "Her Royal Highness Doña Irene de Grecia de Hannover"... She follows the rule of having two surnames, that of her father and that of her mother, and although she receives the title of Royal Highness, the title of Princess is not included, because legally in Spain only Leonor can use it.

 
Really. I always thought all born members of the greek RF have only one name and not a string of names like many other nobles. Have also never seen more names list for Sophie/Sofia other than this one
I read a long time ago they where the Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glucksburg's and some of the family in the past added Beck as a 5th name. Constantine's father Paul who was very down to earth used the name Paul Beck when he lived in the UK and worked at a car or airplane factory in one of the Greek non reigning times before he married in the years between the wars. I think to keep with the heritage would have been nice, Oldenburg, Glucksburg but this family appear to have a jet-set focus and maybe the French name aligns better with their current social and business life.
 
I read a long time ago they where the Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glucksburg's and some of the family in the past added Beck as a 5th name. Constantine's father Paul who was very down to earth used the name Paul Beck when he lived in the UK and worked at a car or airplane factory in one of the Greek non reigning times before he married in the years between the wars. I think to keep with the heritage would have been nice, Oldenburg, Glucksburg but this family appear to have a jet-set focus and maybe the French name aligns better with their current social and business life.
The family was known as the Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Becks before Friedrich Wilhelm was given the Duchy of Glücksburg by King Frederik VI in 1825 and assumed that name. The King was his brother-in-law as they had married two sisters from the House of Hessen-Kassel.
 
The family was known as the Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Becks before Friedrich Wilhelm was given the Duchy of Glücksburg by King Frederik VI in 1825 and assumed that name. The King was his brother-in-law as they had married two sisters from the House of Hessen-Kassel.
Very good detail, I raise a carrot juice to you.
 
From the website of the Greek royal family:

Why are members of the former Greek Royal Family addressed using titles?

Here is the correct form of address: Queen Anne-Marie, former Queen of the Hellenes. All other members of the family are similarly styled. These stylings were first set out in the 1815 Treaty of Vienna, which states that they are hereditary lifetime titles retained even in the event their associated royal offices cease to exist. In 1996, the Hellenic Council of State – the Supreme Administrative Court of Greece – decreed (in Ruling No. 4575/1996) that these titles do not designate nobility but rather function as personal identifiers.

 
According to her new WIKIPEDIA website Maria Olympia and her family have now a Greek citizenship granted by Minister of interior, Theodoros Livanios.

Noblesse & Royautes Website has confirmed it as well.
 
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