Titles of the Edinburgh Children

[acdc1]

I couldn't find a thread on this. I know that they want their kids styled as children of an Earl. I don't know if they'll have any more kids after this one, but if this child is a boy, he will be Viscount Severn. If they had one more child, and it was a boy, would it be the Hon. X Windsor?

 

[branchg]

Lord/Lady Mountbatten-Windsor

 

[Iluvbertie]

I couldn't find a thread on this. I know that they want their kids styled as children of an Earl. I don't know if they'll have any more kids after this one, but if this child is a boy, he will be Viscount Severn. If they had one more child, and it was a boy, would it be the Hon. X Windsor?

As the children of an Earl they are all Lord/Lady Mountbatten-Windsor (the same as the children of Earl Spencer are Lord/Lady Spencer) but the eldest son and heir is allowed to use the courtesy title of the current title-holder's second title e.g. Viscount Severn in the same way as Viscount Linley (Princess Margaret's son) uses this title as the eldest son and heir of his father Earl Snowdon (not because he is the son of Princess Margaret but because his father was given a title).

 

[acdc1]

In the Wikipedia artcle on Earls, it says that the eldest son takes the highest lesser title of his father as a courtesy title, so in this case it would be Viscount Severn. All daughters of the Earl are styled as Lady (Forename) (Surname), which Louise is. Any younger sons are styled as The Honourable (Forename) (Surname). Would this be different since Edward is a prince?

 

[Claire]

No different.
The only problem I have is that when Edward becames a Duke if he has a son does he became the earl?

 

[selrahc4]

No different.
The only problem I have is that when Edward becames a Duke if he has a son does he became the earl?

He wouldn't become the Earl, but he would use the title as a courtesy title.

 

[Lady Marmalade]

Even though legally they ARE His/Her Royal Highnesses Prince/Princess...

 

[Jo of Palatine]

In the Wikipedia artcle on Earls, it says that the eldest son takes the highest lesser title of his father as a courtesy title, so in this case it would be Viscount Severn. All daughters of the Earl are styled as Lady (Forename) (Surname), which Louise is. Any younger sons are styled as The Honourable (Forename) (Surname). Would this be different since Edward is a prince?

It's different with Royal Earls, I think. Second sons of "normal" earls are just The Honorable, but with a Royal earl as father, I guess it'd be "Lord (Forname) Mountbatten-Windsor. As it is meant that Edward will end up a Royal Duke one day and his son (in case there is one) a duke, it won't be a problem anyway.

 

[branchg]

Even though legally they ARE His/Her Royal Highnesses Prince/Princess...

Correct. All of Edward and Sophie's children are automatically HRH Prince/Princess of the UK as male-line grandchildren of The Sovereign under the 1917 Letters Patent of George V.

They are being styled as the children of an Earl at the request of their parents, but this is simply a request, not a change in their title or rank.

 

[Georgia]

I thought that there had been a change in law after Lady Louise was born but I looked into it and no, there wasn't.
I suppose its a little like Camilla, she really is Princess of Wales although she is styled as Duchess of Cornwall just as after Charles becomes King she will be Queen but styled as Princess Consort. You can do anything when you're Royal!!

 

[morhange]

It's different with Royal Earls, I think. Second sons of "normal" earls are just The Honorable, but with a Royal earl as father, I guess it'd be "Lord (Forname) Mountbatten-Windsor. As it is meant that Edward will end up a Royal Duke one day and his son (in case there is one) a duke, it won't be a problem anyway.

No, I think royal earls are the same as regular earls. It's only applicable for when a royal earl is using earl as a courtesy title, I think. If Louise had been a boy, and this second child had been a boy, I'm sure he probably would have been known as The Honourable NN Windsor.

 

[branchg]

I thought that there had been a change in law after Lady Louise was born but I looked into it and no, there wasn't.
I suppose its a little like Camilla, she really is Princess of Wales although she is styled as Duchess of Cornwall just as after Charles becomes King she will be Queen but styled as Princess Consort. You can do anything when you're Royal!!

Well, right now, Camilla is HRH The Princess Charles by marriage, in addition to all of the titles held by the wife of the heir to the throne (Princess of Wales and Countess of Chester, Duchess of Cornwall and Rothesay, Countess of Carrick, Baroness Renfrew and Princess of Scotland).

Once Charles becomes King, she doesn't have a choice in titles as the wife of The Sovereign and is automatically Queen. Unless Parliament passes legislation agreeing otherwise, she cannot hold the lesser title and rank of a Princess once she becomes Queen Consort.

 

[principessa]

If I would meet Lady Louise or Viscount Severn (I am not expecting that this will happen), and I am talking to them and adress them as Princess or Prince, would I get problems?

 

[Claire]

If they are anything like their folks they would constantly correct you.

 

[Clare Niadna]

I believe that another girl would be Lady, but a younger son would be the"Honorable". If Edward becomes a duke, younger son would then be Lord.

 

[Elspeth]

Considering how creative the royal family is being with titles and styles these days, I wouldn't be surprised to see a younger son called "Lord X Mountbatten-Windsor" rather than "The Honourable..." It just seems rather unfair to refer to someone as simply "The Hon. X" when he's really HRH Prince X.

 

[PrinceOfCanada]

In that vein, Elspeth, it might end up being HRH Prince X, The Honourable Y, much like Alexandra is HRH Pss Alexandra, The Hon. Lady Ogilvy (showing the one title in precedence in her own right, and that derived from her husband; similarly a child could theoretically be named HRH P X, T H Y showing the first by absolute birthright, the Honourable derived from his father).

All this nonsense aside.. one wishes, somewhat, that EIIR would issue a LP with a blanket amendment to all remainders providing for strict primogeniture amongst children of peers.

 

[Velasco]

From what I understand, the Earl and Countess have requested that their children be treated as "normal" children of an Earl, in terms of title, etc. But no official change is made, so when they are older they can themselves decide whether they wish to pertain to royal rank, with HRH Prince/Princess, or to act as "mere" aristocracy.

 

[Suonymona]

I think if they tried to act as "mere aristocracy", Sophie would give 'em a boot up their backsides.

 

[wbenson]

All this nonsense aside.. one wishes, somewhat, that EIIR would issue a LP with a blanket amendment to all remainders providing for strict primogeniture amongst children of peers.

I know this is old and the user is no longer among us, but for everyone else, she can't do that. It takes an Act of Parliament to amend a peerage like that.

 

[QUEENECE29]

Lord/Lady Mountbatten-Windsor

Why not to use Prince and Princess titles?

 

[Claire]

I know this is old and the user is no longer among us, but for everyone else, she can't do that. It takes an Act of Parliament to amend a peerage like that.

Is it possible that this wasn't done as the palace was concerned that the current government might make thier own amendations at the same time?

 

[branchg]

Why not to use Prince and Princess titles?

The intent was to start downsizing the number of Royal Highnesses in the royal family, something that has been discussed for years among The Queen, Prince Philip and their children. Edward and Sophie are far from the throne and the chance of their children succeeding is almost zero. So, why should they carry the burden of HRH?

The main obstacle to carrying out reform now is The Duke of York, who is adamantly opposed to his daughters losing their royal rank and title. But once The Queen dies, it is very likely Charles will issue new letters patent replacing the 1917 Letters Patent criteria of holding royal rank. This would mean Beatrice, Eugenie, James and Louise would all be styled as the children of a Duke. The Princess Royal's children are commoners and carry no titles.

 

[Lady Ann]

But once The Queen dies, it is very likely Charles will issue new letters patent replacing the 1917 Letters Patent criteria of holding royal rank.

Do you really think so? I have always thought Prince Charles into tradition and loyal to his family, I dont know how much he will change when it comes to Letters of Patent criteria. I guess we will have to wait and see

 

[branchg]

I personally think it is inevitable. Right now, there are 4 HRH children of the Sovereign, 6 HRH male-line grandchildren, 4 HRH grandchildren of George V, and 4 HRH princesses by marriage (Brigitte, Sophie, Katharine, Marie-Christine). Once William and Harry marry and produce children, there could be 2-6 more HRH grandchildren and 2 more HRH wives.

It's just too many royals running around, most of whom do little in the way of public duties. People are living longer these days and the perception may be the family is too big and expensive to maintain, something that has come up often in the British press.

 

[Zonk]

I would tend to disagree. Its going to happen but it won't be because Charles takes the titles.

Once the current Dukes of Gloucester and Kent (as well as Prince Michael) and their wives die (and I not trying to be morbid or wish harm on them...its just a fact of life)..what do you have left? Charles, William, Henry, Andrew, Beatrice, Eugenie, Anne and Edward are all you have left of the HRH's. Beatrice, Eugenie and Anne will not and cannot pass along the HRH's and Edward already wants his kids to have a "normal". And what do you have Charles, William and Henry. And every keeps what they already have.

 

[branchg]

Maybe, maybe not. The Queen and The Duke of Edinburgh will likely have passed on in 15 years. Charles could be King for 20 years or more. William and Harry will have married and produced more HRH grandchildren by then. Then, you still have Beatrice and Eugenie, James and Louise, Anne, Andrew, Edward, The Duke of Gloucester is fairly young as is Prince Michael. The Duke of Kent and Princess Alexandra may have passed on by then or be less active.

That's still a lot of Princes/Princesses running around, especially if William and Harry have more than one kid.

Time will tell, but it's not a big secret that it's been discussed by "The Way Forward" group for a long time now. The royal family has to be sensitive to change and Britain may no longer be as supportive of the monarchy once The Queen dies.

 

[Zonk]

Yes, they are running around but let's face it. Who is going to be doing any work on behalf of the Royal Family.

My point is eventually it will get to the soverign's immeadiate family without Charles having to anything. James and Louise most likely will not do anything but show up for family functions (much like Zara and Peter). In 15 years, it will just be William and Henry producing HRH's. Once the Dukes of Gloucester and Kent and Prince Michael die, the Earl of Ulster and the Earl of St. Andrews will just be Your Grace.

And you still have my scenario. Beatrice, Eugenie, Louise and James (the former two might have some royal duties at least I hope and the last two won't) are not going to produce HRH's. So you still have a smaller royal family that is technically on the British taxpayer's payroll.

 

[Lady Ann]

Zonk, do you think that James being a male line grandchild of the Queen may one day want to use his HRH title? If he did he may pass it on to his children if he wanted too? After all he is still really HRH Prince James right? I thought I read some where that if they wished to both children my choose to use their titles after 18?

 

[MAfan]

Yes, Lady Ann, both Luise and James may choose to use their title of Princes; but the children of James will not be HRH and Princes, because they will be the children of a grandson of the Queen; so they will be styled only as the children of a Earl, or maybe Duke if Prince Edward will be create Duke. The status of the children of James will be the same of the Earls of Ulster and Saint Andrew and their siblings.