Titles of the Dutch Royals

[Tatiana Maria]

Do you think they may do something similar to what they did for Margriet's children for Alexia and Ariane's? In this day and age I don't think it would be out of the question for their spouses to receive some sort of title.

The problem is that per the 2002 Act on Membership of the Royal House, even if Princess Alexia and Princess Ariane eventually marry men approved by Parliament, the children of the marriages will not be members of the Royal House if they are further than two degrees of consanguinity from the monarch.

Therefore, if Alexia and Ariane’s children were born during the reign of Queen Catharina-Amalia, the children would never be members of the Royal House, and the present legislation would not permit the Queen and Government to confer any titles on them.

Suppose that while Willem-Alexander remains on the throne, Alexia gives birth to children from an approved marriage: Then it will be legally possible to bestow titles on her children. But what if Ariane is still unmarried? Perhaps Ariane waits until the reign of Catharina-Amalia to marry and have children: Then it will be too late for her children to be granted titles, even if born from an approved marriage.

Accordingly, if Alexia’s children were born first, and the king and government bestowed titles on them, they would run the risk of Alexia’s children being titled and Ariane’s children being untitled, even though their positions are identical, simply because of the timing.


A possible alternative during the reign of Queen Catharina-Amalia would be to grant a hereditary title to Alexia or Ariane’s husband so that their children would inherit it from their father. But if the couple subsequently divorced, could he be stripped of the title? Otherwise, if the ex-husband remarried, his new wife and their children could end up with a royal family title.


Given all these restrictions, I unfortunately suspect the monarch and government will simply revert to patriarchal convention and have Ariane and Alexia’s children bear their father’s surname and title only.

 

[meeralakshmi]

The problem is that per the 2002 Act on Membership of the Royal House, even if Princess Alexia and Princess Ariane eventually marry men approved by Parliament, the children of the marriages will not be members of the Royal House if they are further than two degrees of consanguinity from the monarch.

Therefore, if Alexia and Ariane’s children were born during the reign of Queen Catharina-Amalia, the children would never be members of the Royal House, and the present legislation would not permit the Queen and Government to confer any titles on them.

Suppose that while Willem-Alexander remains on the throne, Alexia gives birth to children from an approved marriage: Then it will be legally possible to bestow titles on her children. But what if Ariane is still unmarried? Perhaps Ariane waits until the reign of Catharina-Amalia to marry and have children: Then it will be too late for her children to be granted titles, even if born from an approved marriage.

Accordingly, if Alexia’s children were born first, and the king and government bestowed titles on them, they would run the risk of Alexia’s children being titled and Ariane’s children being untitled, even though their positions are identical, simply because of the timing.


A possible alternative during the reign of Queen Catharina-Amalia would be to grant a hereditary title to Alexia or Ariane’s husband so that their children would inherit it from their father. But if the couple subsequently divorced, could he be stripped of the title? Otherwise, if the ex-husband remarried, his new wife and their children could end up with a royal family title.


Given all these restrictions, I unfortunately suspect the monarch and government will simply revert to patriarchal convention and have Ariane and Alexia’s children bear their father’s surname and title only.

So if Alexia or Ariane has one child during her father’s reign and another during her sister’s the older child will be titled but the younger child won’t be? That’s certainly odd, maybe they should redefine what it means to be a member of the royal house. That said Willem-Alexander will likely be on the throne for 10-20 more years and I think it’s most likely that Alexia and Ariane will have married and had children by the end of his reign.

 

[Somebody]

I assume Constantijn, Laurentien, Alexia, and Ariane will become princes/princesses of Orange-Nassau like Friso did. Not sure if they’ll be ennobled like Friso was (so Constantijn and Laurentien becoming a count and countess of Orange-Nassau and Alexia and Ariane becoming jonkvrouwen van Amsberg).

I wasn’t aware they would lose their princess of the Netherlands titles, will they become princesses of Orange-Nassau then? I assume Constantijn and Laurentien will also cease to be a prince and princess of the Netherlands when Amalia becomes queen. However like Marengo said they could make a provision for siblings of a former monarch and their spouses like they did for Margriet and Pieter.

They will not (need to) become prince(sse)s of Orange-Nassau as they currently already are prince or princess of Orange-Nassau (by birth or in Laurentien's case by courtesy. In daily life they use 'van Oranje' as surname, referring to this particular title, so little will change.

Friso was made count of Orange-Nassau, so he could pass that title on to his children, while retaining his title of prince of Orange-Nassau.

 

[Mbruno]

The problem is that per the 2002 Act on Membership of the Royal House, even if Princess Alexia and Princess Ariane eventually marry men approved by Parliament, the children of the marriages will not be members of the Royal House if they are further than two degrees of consanguinity from the monarch.

Therefore, if Alexia and Ariane’s children were born during the reign of Queen Catharina-Amalia, the children would never be members of the Royal House, and the present legislation would not permit the Queen and Government to confer any titles on them.

Suppose that while Willem-Alexander remains on the throne, Alexia gives birth to children from an approved marriage: Then it will be legally possible to bestow titles on her children. But what if Ariane is still unmarried? Perhaps Ariane waits until the reign of Catharina-Amalia to marry and have children: Then it will be too late for her children to be granted titles, even if born from an approved marriage.

Accordingly, if Alexia’s children were born first, and the king and government bestowed titles on them, they would run the risk of Alexia’s children being titled and Ariane’s children being untitled, even though their positions are identical, simply because of the timing.


A possible alternative during the reign of Queen Catharina-Amalia would be to grant a hereditary title to Alexia or Ariane’s husband so that their children would inherit it from their father. But if the couple subsequently divorced, could he be stripped of the title? Otherwise, if the ex-husband remarried, his new wife and their children could end up with a royal family title.


Given all these restrictions, I unfortunately suspect the monarch and government will simply revert to patriarchal convention and have Ariane and Alexia’s children bear their father’s surname and title only.

Alexia's and Ariane's husbands will be members of the Royal House while Catharina-Amalia is queen, so they can be legally granted titles of nobility that can be passed on to their future children. The law provides for the loss of the title of Prince of the Netherlands (which the husbands most likely will not be given) when membership of the Royal House expires, but doesn't say anything about loss of nobility. I assume that, once ennobled, they would retain that rank for life.

 

[Somebody]

It is theoretically possible but there is no precedent in the Netherlands for husbands of non-heirs to be ennobled.

An easier way would be to arrange for a title for the children by the marriage law for each of the princesses - as was done for the children of Constantijn as well whose children have a different title than their parents. This does, however, require them to receive parliamentary approval for their marriages.

 

[meeralakshmi]

Could the husbands be given the courtesy title of prince of Orange-Nassau?

 

[Mbruno]

It is theoretically possible but there is no precedent in the Netherlands for husbands of non-heirs to be ennobled.

An easier way would be to arrange for a title for the children by the marriage law for each of the princesses - as was done for the children of Constantijn as well whose children have a different title than their parents. This does, however, require them to receive parliamentary approval for their marriages.

I agree, but going back to the original discussion, would that be legally possible if the children were born after Catharina-Amalia becomes queen? Tatiana Maria's point was that, after Catharina-Amalia ascends the throne, any children born to her sisters will not be members of the Royal House (even though they will be in the line of succession), so technically they cannot be granted titles of nobility under the Wet op de Adeldom.

 

[Mbruno]

Could the husbands be given the courtesy title of prince of Orange-Nassau?

Yes, Alexia's and Ariane's husbands will be members of the Royal House, both under King Willem-Alexander and under Queen Catharina-Amalia, so they can be legally given the substantive (not just the courtesy) title of Prince of Orange-Nassau by royal decree. It is up to the monarch and the Dutch government to decide that though (as royal decrees must be countersigned by a responsible minister to be legally valid in the Netherlands).

As pointed out, I don't think there is any precedent where the title of Prince of Orange-Nassau was granted to husbands of Princesses of the Netherlands .

2 De titel «Prins (Prinses) van Oranje-Nassau» kan bij koninklijk besluit uitsluitend worden verleend aan leden van het koninklijk huis.

3 Binnen drie maanden na verlies van het lidmaatschap van het koninklijk huis wordt bij koninklijk besluit beslist over het behoud van de titel «Prins (Prinses) van Oranje-Nassau» als persoonlijke titel voor degenen die het lidmaatschap hebben verloren.

 

[meeralakshmi]

Yes, Alexia's and Ariane's husbands will be members of the Royal House, both under King Willem-Alexander and under Queen Catharina-Amalia, so they can be legally given the substantive (not just the courtesy) title of Prince of Orange-Nassau by royal decree. It is up to the monarch and the Dutch government to decide that though (as royal decrees must be countersigned by a responsible minister to be legally valid in the Netherlands).

I guess that would be similar to the titles held by Mathilde (before becoming queen), Lorenz, and Claire in Belgium.

 

[Mbruno]

I guess that would be similar to the titles held by Mathilde (before becoming queen), Lorenz, and Claire in Belgium.

It is a similar situation in the sense that Mathilde, Lorenz, and Claire have been also made Prince or Princess of Belgium in their own right by separate royal decrees. However, while in Belgium there is, I suppose, no limitation on whom the King can make a Prince/Princess of Belgium by royal decree, in the Netherlands, on the other hand, the Law on Membership of the Royal House, which is an act of the Dutch Parliament, bestows the titles of Prince/Princess of Orange-Nassau automatically on the heir presumptive and on a former monarch upon abdication, and allows the title to be additionally granted separately by royal decree only to members of the Royal House.

By the way, Mathilde, despite now holding the courtesy title of Queen (as the wife of the King) remains legally a Princess of Belgium too. Contrary to a common misconception, she does not have the official title of "Queen of the Belgians" (although she is often referred as such in the English-speaking media). Her correct style would be: Sa Majesté la Reine Mathilde Marie Christine Ghislaine comtesse d'Udekem d'Acoz, Princesse de Belgique.

In that respect, see for example how Queen Paola was cited in then Prince Philippe's marriage certificate (source):

L'an mil neuf cent nonante-neuf, le quatre décembre, à dix heures, devant Nous, Messire François-Xavier Chevalier de Donnea, Ministre d'Etat, Membre de la Chambre des Représentants, Bourgmestre de la Ville de Bruxelles, Officier de l'Etat Civil, Grand Officier de l'Ordre de Léopold, assisté de Marceline Van Baerlem, Echevine de la Ville de Bruxelles, comparaissent à l'Hôtel de Ville :
Son Altesse Royale le Prince Philippe Léopold Louis Marie, Duc de Brabant, Prince de Belgique, Sénateur, Grand Cordon de l'Ordre de Léopold, titulaire de diverses distinctions honorifiques étrangères, né à Bruxelles, deuxième district, le quinze avril mil neuf cent soixante, domicilié à Bruxelles, rue Brederode 16, fils majeur de Sa Majesté le Roi Albert II Félix Humbert Théodore Christian Eugène Marie, Roi des Belges, Prince de Belgique, Grand Maître de l'Ordre de Léopold, titulaire de diverses distinctions honorifiques étrangères, et de son épouse Sa Majesté la Reine Paola Margherita Maria-Antonia Consiglia des Princes Ruffo di Calabria, Princesse de Belgique, Grand Cordon de l'Ordre de Léopold, domiciliés à Bruxelles, d'une part; [...]

 

[Somebody]

I agree, but going back to the original discussion, would that be legally possible if the children were born after Catharina-Amalia becomes queen? Tatiana Maria's point was that, after Catharina-Amalia ascends the throne, any children born to her sisters will not be members of the Royal House (even though they will be in the line of succession), so technically they cannot be granted titles of nobility under the Wet op de Adeldom.

No provision was made for such a circumstance in the case of Constantijn and Laurentien whose children theoretically could also have been born after W-A ascended the throne. Maybe the argument is that the ennoblement of any children the couple may have already takes place at the moment the marriage law comes into effect? If so, it would work for any marriages taking place ahead of Amalia becoming queen (even if her nieces and nephews are born at a later point in time).

 

[Tatiana Maria]

No provision was made for such a circumstance in the case of Constantijn and Laurentien whose children theoretically could also have been born after W-A ascended the throne. Maybe the argument is that the ennoblement of any children the couple may have already takes place at the moment the marriage law comes into effect? If so, it would work for any marriages taking place ahead of Amalia becoming queen (even if her nieces and nephews are born at a later point in time).

The decree on the titles and surnames of Constantijn and Laurentien’s future children was issued in May 2001, a year prior to the 2002 reforms.

Staatsblad 2001, 227 | Overheid.nl > Officiële bekendmakingen

zoek.officielebekendmakingen.nl

According to the 1985 Law on Membership of the Royal House, all persons in line to the throne were members of the Royal House. So, as of 2001, the expectation would have been for Constantijn’s children to be born into the Royal House unless they were born after King Willem-Alexander abdicated or died - which would have been unlikely.

Nevertheless, it does seem negligent that the governments have never addressed this issue, as far as I can tell from the preparatory work and legislation.