Titles of the Belgian Royal Family 2: 2023 -

[meeralakshmi]

If Leopold and Lilian had married under different circumstances, I'm sure Lilian would have been Queen, just like the other 7 consorts of Belgian Kings.

Lilian would have been queen by default but asked not to be. Maybe it was also due to the controversy caused by an unequal marriage.

When it comes to titles, only children and grandchildren of the monarch carry the title of "Prince/ss of Belgium", so Nicolas and Aymeric's future children will be "Prince/ss of Saxe-Coburg", as they will be great-grandchildren of a monarch (King Albert II).

Didn’t know they would be princes/princesses of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha, is there a constitutional passage that says so? However it makes sense since Leopold I started out as a prince of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha.

 

[meeralakshmi]

Now I’m curious if Elisabeth’s male-line great-grandchildren will be princes/princesses of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha or have the surname/title (before marriage) of her husband.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

Didn’t know they would be princes/princesses of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha, is there a constitutional passage that says so? However it makes sense since Leopold I started out as a prince of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha.

There is no document saying so explicitly, but it is implied by King Philippe’s 2015 royal decree. Article 1 of the decree reads (translated):

Article 1. In the public and private acts relating to them, the Princes and the Princesses, children and grandchildren, issuing in direct descendance from the King as well as the Princes and the Princesses, children and grandchildren, issuing in direct descendance from the Crown Prince or the Crown Princess carry the title of Prince or of Princess of Belgium following their forename and, so far as they carry them, their family name and their dynastic title and ahead of the other titles to which their ancestry gives them the right. Their forename is preceded by the predicate His or Her Royal Highness.​

King Philippe has communicated that “the other titles to which their ancestry gives them the right” is meant to include the titles “Duke/Duchess of Saxony, Prince/Princess of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha”.

This information was given by the Palace to the genealogical encyclopedia Le Carnet Mondain.

From a news report by Martine Dubuisson (translated):

Surprising indeed on finding "Le carnet mondain" in its 2017 edition. All of the members of the royal family born in descent from Leopold I (thus not the wives of the kings, Mathilde and Paola, or the spouses of the princes, Lorenz and Claire), with the exception of the children/grandchild of Astrid and Lorenz, henceforth carry as well the titles of "Duke of Saxony, Prince of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha" or "Duchess of Saxony, Princess of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha".

[...]

[...] the bulky work specifies that "the information concerning the royal family of Belgium is reproduced from that which was communicated to us by the Palace"."

[...]

What does the Royal Palace have to say for it? [...] "The Royal Decree of 2015 confirmed that the members of the royal family bear the titles to which their ancestry gives them the right. This is the case," is its limited response.​

In the original French:

Surprise, en effet, en découvrant « Le carnet mondain » dans sa version 2017. Tous les membres de la famille royale issus de la descendance de Léopold Ier (donc pas les épouses de rois, Mathilde et Paola, ou les conjoints de princes, Lorenz et Claire), à l’exception des enfants/petit-enfant d’Astrid et Lorenz, portent désormais aussi les titres de « Duc de Saxe, Prince de Saxe-Cobourg-Gotha » ou « Duchesse de Saxe, princesse de Saxe-Cobourg-Gotha ».

[...]

[...] comme le précise le volumineux ouvrage mondain, que « les informations concernant la famille royale de belgique sont reproduites tellse qu'elles nous sont communiquées par le Palais »."

[...]

Qu’en dit le Palais royal, justement ? [...] « L’arrêté royal de 2015 a confirmé que les membres de la famille royale portent les titres auxquels ils ont droit de part leur ascendance. C’est le cas », se borne-t-il à répondre.​

 

[meeralakshmi]

There is no document saying so explicitly, but it is implied by King Philippe’s 2015 royal decree. Article 1 of the decree reads (translated):

Article 1. In the public and private acts relating to them, the Princes and the Princesses, children and grandchildren, issuing in direct descendance from the King as well as the Princes and the Princesses, children and grandchildren, issuing in direct descendance from the Crown Prince or the Crown Princess carry the title of Prince or of Princess of Belgium following their forename and, so far as they carry them, their family name and their dynastic title and ahead of the other titles to which their ancestry gives them the right. Their forename is preceded by the predicate His or Her Royal Highness.​

King Philippe has communicated that “the other titles to which their ancestry gives them the right” is meant to include the titles “Duke/Duchess of Saxony, Prince/Princess of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha”.

This information was given by the Palace to the genealogical encyclopedia Le Carnet Mondain.

From a news report by Martine Dubuisson (translated):

Surprising indeed on finding "Le carnet mondain" in its 2017 edition. All of the members of the royal family born in descent from Leopold I (thus not the wives of the kings, Mathilde and Paola, or the spouses of the princes, Lorenz and Claire), with the exception of the children/grandchild of Astrid and Lorenz, henceforth carry as well the titles of "Duke of Saxony, Prince of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha" or "Duchess of Saxony, Princess of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha".​

​

[...]​

​

[...] the bulky work specifies that "the information concerning the royal family of Belgium is reproduced from that which was communicated to us by the Palace"."​

​

[...]​

​

What does the Royal Palace have to say for it? [...] "The Royal Decree of 2015 confirmed that the members of the royal family bear the titles to which their ancestry gives them the right. This is the case," is its limited response.​

In the original French:

Surprise, en effet, en découvrant « Le carnet mondain » dans sa version 2017. Tous les membres de la famille royale issus de la descendance de Léopold Ier (donc pas les épouses de rois, Mathilde et Paola, ou les conjoints de princes, Lorenz et Claire), à l’exception des enfants/petit-enfant d’Astrid et Lorenz, portent désormais aussi les titres de « Duc de Saxe, Prince de Saxe-Cobourg-Gotha » ou « Duchesse de Saxe, princesse de Saxe-Cobourg-Gotha ».​

​

[...]​

​

[...] comme le précise le volumineux ouvrage mondain, que « les informations concernant la famille royale de belgique sont reproduites tellse qu'elles nous sont communiquées par le Palais »."​

​

[...]​

​

Qu’en dit le Palais royal, justement ? [...] « L’arrêté royal de 2015 a confirmé que les membres de la famille royale portent les titres auxquels ils ont droit de part leur ascendance. C’est le cas », se borne-t-il à répondre.​

Will the princes/princesses of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha have the style of HRH or HSH? German principalities use HSH but Leopold I was elevated to HRH by George IV prior to becoming the first king of Belgium (following the death of his first wife, George IV's daughter Princess Charlotte of Wales). And unless they make an exception I'm guessing that Elisabeth's male-line great-grandchildren won't have the prince/princess of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha title.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

Will the princes/princesses of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha have the style of HRH or HSH?

Good question. King Philippe’s decree of 2015 implies that royal descendants who are Princes/ses, but not Princes/ses of Belgium, will not be HRH.

Compare Article 1 (on descendants who are Princes/ses of Belgium) of the decree to Article 4 (on descendants who are Princes/ses but not “of Belgium”).

Article 1. In the public and private acts relating to them, the Princes and the Princesses, children and grandchildren, issuing in direct descendance from the King as well as the Princes and the Princesses, children and grandchildren, issuing in direct descendance from the Crown Prince or the Crown Princess carry the title of Prince or of Princess of Belgium following their forename and, so far as they carry them, their family name and their dynastic title and ahead of the other titles to which their ancestry gives them the right. Their forename is preceded by the predicate His or Her Royal Highness.

Article 4. The Princes and Princesses, issuing in direct descendance from His Majesty Leopold, George, Christian, Frederick of Saxe-Coburg, who are not covered by Articles 1 to 3, carry following their forename and, so far as they carry it, their family name, the titles to which their ancestry gives them the right.​

Article 1 stipulates the predicate HRH, but Article 4 does not.


This new rule was confirmed when Article 4 was applied for the first time in 2016, upon the birth of Princess Anna Astrid, daughter of Prince Amedeo of Belgium.

In Anna Astrid’s birth certificate, she was registered as “Princess”, but without “of Belgium” and without HRH. (Her father Amedeo, as a Prince of Belgium, always uses HRH, not HI&RH.)

See this article quoting her birth certificate.

"A la rubrique « nom et prénoms », son acte de naissance porte en effet, comme nous avons pu le voir : « Son Altesse Impériale et Royale la Princesse Anna Astrid Marie Archiduchesse d'Autriche-Este (Habsbourg-Lorraine) »."

Translation:

"In the column 'surname and given names', her birth certificate uses, as a matter of fact, as we were able to see it: 'Her Imperial and Royal Highness Princess Anna Astrid Marie Archduchess of Austria-Este (Habsbourg-Lorraine)'."​

Perhaps future Belgian Princes/ses of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha who are not Princes/ses of Belgium will use the predicate HH. HH is the predicate used by some of the princely families in the Belgian nobility, and it is used by the current members of the German branch of the Saxe-Coburg family.

 

[meeralakshmi]

Good question. King Philippe’s decree of 2015 implies that royal descendants who are Princes/ses, but not Princes/ses of Belgium, will not be HRH.

Compare Article 1 (on descendants who are Princes/ses of Belgium) of the decree to Article 4 (on descendants who are Princes/ses but not “of Belgium”).

Article 1. In the public and private acts relating to them, the Princes and the Princesses, children and grandchildren, issuing in direct descendance from the King as well as the Princes and the Princesses, children and grandchildren, issuing in direct descendance from the Crown Prince or the Crown Princess carry the title of Prince or of Princess of Belgium following their forename and, so far as they carry them, their family name and their dynastic title and ahead of the other titles to which their ancestry gives them the right. Their forename is preceded by the predicate His or Her Royal Highness.​

​

Article 4. The Princes and Princesses, issuing in direct descendance from His Majesty Leopold, George, Christian, Frederick of Saxe-Coburg, who are not covered by Articles 1 to 3, carry following their forename and, so far as they carry it, their family name, the titles to which their ancestry gives them the right.​

Article 1 stipulates the predicate HRH, but Article 4 does not.


This new rule was confirmed when Article 4 was applied for the first time in 2016, upon the birth of Princess Anna Astrid, daughter of Prince Amedeo of Belgium.

In Anna Astrid’s birth certificate, she was registered as “Princess”, but without “of Belgium” and without HRH. (Her father Amedeo, as a Prince of Belgium, always uses HRH, not HI&RH.)

See this article quoting her birth certificate.

"A la rubrique « nom et prénoms », son acte de naissance porte en effet, comme nous avons pu le voir : « Son Altesse Impériale et Royale la Princesse Anna Astrid Marie Archiduchesse d'Autriche-Este (Habsbourg-Lorraine) »."​

​

Translation:​

​

"In the column 'surname and given names', her birth certificate uses, as a matter of fact, as we were able to see it: 'Her Imperial and Royal Highness Princess Anna Astrid Marie Archduchess of Austria-Este (Habsbourg-Lorraine)'."​

Perhaps future Belgian Princes/ses of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha who are not Princes/ses of Belgium will use the predicate HH. HH is the predicate used by some of the princely families in the Belgian nobility, and it is used by the current members of the German branch of the Saxe-Coburg family.

When did the House of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha start using HH instead of HSH? Also I think the Princess prefix is due to Anna Astrid’s Austrian titles of imperial princess of Austria and royal princess of Bohemia and Hungary.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

Also I think the Princess prefix is due to Anna Astrid’s Austrian titles of imperial princess of Austria and royal princess of Bohemia and Hungary.

That’s certainly possible, even likely. My point in that post was merely that Article 4 and its implicit “no HRH” rule was applied to her, and rightly so as she meets the three criteria of Article 4: she is a Princess (according to her Belgian birth certificate), she is a descendant of Leopold I, and she is not covered by Articles 1-3 of the decree of 2015 (and so is not a Princess "of Belgium" or HRH).

Article 4. The Princes and Princesses, issuing in direct descendance from His Majesty Leopold, George, Christian, Frederick of Saxe-Coburg, who are not covered by Articles 1 to 3, carry following their forename and, so far as they carry it, their family name, the titles to which their ancestry gives them the right.​

When did the House of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha start using HH instead of HSH?

I’ll answer that later in the thread for the Saxe-Coburg and Gotha family.

Ducal House of Saxe-Coburg und Gotha (Wettin)

The Ducal House of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha House of Wettin The line was founded in 1680 by Johann Ernst, Duke of Saxe-Saalfeld, who inherited Saxe-Coburg from his brother in 1699. Assumed the title Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Saalfeld in 1735. On the rearrangement of the Saxon Duchies following the...

www.theroyalforums.com

 

[Mbruno]

Now I’m curious if Elisabeth’s male-line great-grandchildren will be princes/princesses of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha or have the surname/title (before marriage) of her husband.

The title of Prince/Princess of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha is inherited in paternal line only, so I don't think Elisabeth's descendants will carry it.

 

[meeralakshmi]

The title of Prince/Princess of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha is inherited in paternal line only, so I don't think Elisabeth's descendants will carry it.

That's what I'm guessing as well unless they make an exception, otherwise the house name will change to Elisabeth's husband's surname (or whatever house he's a part of if he has one).

 

[Mbruno]

That’s certainly possible, even likely. My point in that post was merely that Article 4 and its implicit “no HRH” rule was applied to her, and rightly so as she meets the three criteria of Article 4: she is a Princess (according to her Belgian birth certificate), she is a descendant of Leopold I, and she is not covered by Articles 1-3 of the decree of 2015 (and so is not a Princess "of Belgium" or HRH).

Article 4. The Princes and Princesses, issuing in direct descendance from His Majesty Leopold, George, Christian, Frederick of Saxe-Coburg, who are not covered by Articles 1 to 3, carry following their forename and, so far as they carry it, their family name, the titles to which their ancestry gives them the right.​

I’ll answer that later in the thread for the Saxe-Coburg and Gotha family.

Ducal House of Saxe-Coburg und Gotha (Wettin)

The Ducal House of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha House of Wettin The line was founded in 1680 by Johann Ernst, Duke of Saxe-Saalfeld, who inherited Saxe-Coburg from his brother in 1699. Assumed the title Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Saalfeld in 1735. On the rearrangement of the Saxon Duchies following the...

www.theroyalforums.com

Has the birth certificate of Albert Isvy been made public? It would be interesting to see if he is also referred officially as a "Prince" (being a direct descendant of King Leopold I).

 

[Tatiana Maria]

That's what I'm guessing as well unless they make an exception, otherwise the house name will change to Elisabeth's husband's surname (or whatever house he's a part of if he has one).

Their descendants would be able to inherit the family name “of Saxe-Coburg” even if they did not inherit the titles “Duke/Duchess of Saxony, Prince/Princess of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha”. The 2015 royal decree lists the “family name” and “the titles to which their ancestry gives them the right” as separate items.

The title of Prince/Princess of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha is inherited in paternal line only, so I don't think Elisabeth's descendants will carry it.

You may be right, but it is difficult to be certain because, on the other hand: The other Benelux monarchies are quite similar to Belgium insofar as their countries’ nobiliary law follows paternal inheritance exclusively, their royal families are of German extraction, and their royals carry subsidiary princely titles which incorporate the royal family surname (Prince/ss of Orange-Nassau and Prince/ss of Nassau, respectively).

Nonetheless, both of them have made exceptions to paternal title inheritance when there is a female sovereign. The children of the reigning Queens of the Netherlands carry the title and surname Princess/Prince of Orange-Nassau, and the legitimate male-line descendants of Grand Duchess Charlotte of Luxembourg carry the title Princess/Prince of Nassau.

 

[Linda_26]

Has the birth certificate of Albert Isvy been made public? It would be interesting to see if he is also referred officially as a "Prince" (being a direct descendant of King Leopold I).

I don't think it has been made public, but I've seen several articles (also from sources that I consider reliable) after his birth mentioning that he is the first untitled person ever to be in line to the Belgian throne, which is correct in my opinion (Albert is a direct descendant of Leopold I, but his ancestry doesn't give him right to any title-as it is the case for many other people who like him descend from Leopold I).

 

[Tatiana Maria]

I've also seen many media reports making that statement, but none that I would consider reliable. None of the articles I read cited any source (not even an anonymous "someone close to the family"), and many are from websites or reporters that have made very incorrect statements regarding royal titles and surnames in the past (such as claiming that the 2015 decree limited the number of Princesses and Princes, when in reality it only limited the number of Princesses and Princes of Belgium).

Personally, I do believe your opinion is also King Philippe's opinion (and so I'll assume Albert is untitled until proven otherwise), but I am waiting for confirmation from a reliable source such as a birth certificate or a statement from the family or palace.

On a related note, my understanding is that there is also no confirmation that his surname is Isvy, although it is quite likely.

 

[meeralakshmi]

Their descendants would be able to inherit the family name “of Saxe-Coburg” even if they did not inherit the titles “Duke/Duchess of Saxony, Prince/Princess of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha”. The 2015 royal decree lists the “family name” and “the titles to which their ancestry gives them the right” as separate items.



You may be right, but it is difficult to be certain because, on the other hand: The other Benelux monarchies are quite similar to Belgium insofar as their countries’ nobiliary law follows paternal inheritance exclusively, their royal families are of German extraction, and their royals carry subsidiary princely titles which incorporate the royal family surname (Prince/ss of Orange-Nassau and Prince/ss of Nassau, respectively).

Nonetheless, both of them have made exceptions to paternal title inheritance when there is a female sovereign. The children of the reigning Queens of the Netherlands carry the title and surname Princess/Prince of Orange-Nassau, and the legitimate male-line descendants of Grand Duchess Charlotte of Luxembourg carry the title Princess/Prince of Nassau.

The one thing Belgium has done that the Netherlands and Luxembourg haven't is give titles to the spouses and children of non-heir princesses (Delphine's husband isn't a prince because they aren't legally married). I'm guessing the children of Astrid and Delphine don't have the titles duke/duchess of Saxony and prince/princess of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha along with prince/princess of Belgium.

 

[meeralakshmi]

I'm assuming that even if they inherit the Saxe-Coburg and Gotha titles Elisabeth's children and male-line descendants will still get a subsidiary title via Elisabeth's husband as has occurred in every monarchy where a male consort hasn't changed the name of the royal house.

 

[Linda_26]

The one thing Belgium has done that the Netherlands and Luxembourg haven't is give titles to the spouses and children of non-heir princesses (Delphine's husband isn't a prince because they aren't legally married). I'm guessing the children of Astrid and Delphine don't have the titles duke/duchess of Saxony and prince/princess of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha along with prince/princess of Belgium.

As far as I know, the female-line grandchildren of King Albert II don't have the Saxon titles indeed.
Jim isn't a Prince, but it's not just because he isn't married to Delphine. The Royal decree regulating royal titles doesn't deal with spouses'titles: spouses need to be created Princes by separate royal decrees (as it was done for Lorenz, Mathilde and Claire), it's not automatic. Even if Delphine and Jim were married, I'm quite sure King Philippe wouldn't have made him Prince of Belgium.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

I'm guessing the children of Astrid and Delphine don't have the titles duke/duchess of Saxony and prince/princess of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha along with prince/princess of Belgium.

As far as I know, the female-line grandchildren of King Albert II don't have the Saxon titles indeed.

For Delphine’s children, their titles were decided by the Brussels Court of Appeal verdict of October 1, 2020, so it would depend on what exactly is written in the judgment (which I’ve not found).

For Astrid’s descendants, they indeed do not carry the Saxon titles, according to the information the Palace provided to the publication Le Carnet Mondain in 2017:

La famille royale s’appelle à nouveau de Saxe-Cobourg

Elle a repris, à l’exception de la « branche » Astrid, son ancien titre allemand. Pour le transmettre aux descendants qui ne peuvent plus être des « de Belgique ». La preuve par « Le carnet mondain ».

plus.lesoir.be

Translation:

Surprising indeed on finding "Le carnet mondain" in its 2017 edition. All of the members of the royal family born in descent from Leopold I (thus not the wives of the kings, Mathilde and Paola, or the spouses of the princes, Lorenz and Claire), with the exception of the children/grandchild of Astrid and Lorenz, henceforth carry as well the titles of "Duke of Saxony, Prince of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha" or "Duchess of Saxony, Princess of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha".

[...]

[...] the bulky work specifies that "the information concerning the royal family of Belgium is reproduced from that which was communicated to us by the Palace"."
​

In the original French:

Surprise, en effet, en découvrant « Le carnet mondain » dans sa version 2017. Tous les membres de la famille royale issus de la descendance de Léopold Ier (donc pas les épouses de rois, Mathilde et Paola, ou les conjoints de princes, Lorenz et Claire), à l’exception des enfants/petit-enfant d’Astrid et Lorenz, portent désormais aussi les titres de « Duc de Saxe, Prince de Saxe-Cobourg-Gotha » ou « Duchesse de Saxe, princesse de Saxe-Cobourg-Gotha ».

[...]

[...] comme le précise le volumineux ouvrage mondain, que « les informations concernant la famille royale de belgique sont reproduites tellse qu'elles nous sont communiquées par le Palais »."
​

 

[meeralakshmi]

Even if Delphine and Jim were married, I'm quite sure King Philippe wouldn't have made him Prince of Belgium.

Why is that? His other sister’s husband is a prince of Belgium along with their kids being princes and princesses of Belgium. Since Delphine’s kids are a prince and princess Philippe would have likely given James a title to match the rest of his family and Philippe’s other sister’s family.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

The Royal decree regulating royal titles doesn't deal with spouses'titles: spouses need to be created Princes by separate royal decrees (as it was done for Lorenz, Mathilde and Claire), it's not automatic.

The King may also grant a courtesy (not legally recognized) title to the spouse of a royal, without creating a legal title for them.

For example, Prince Amedeo’s wife Elisabetta remains legally untitled. Therefore, in an official Royal Decree, she is mentioned as plain “Mrs. Elisabetta Maria Rosboch von Wolkenstein”.

But apart from legal documents, King Philippe has had the Royal Palace formally refer to Elisabetta as HRH and as “Princess Elisabetta”, “Princess Elisabetta Rosboch von Wolkenstein”, and “Princess Amedeo of Belgium”.

(However, the Palace never refers to her as Princess Elisabetta of Belgium because the style “Princess (Own Forename) of Belgium” is currently reserved for legal Princesses of Belgium.)


The same treatment is accorded to Léa (widow of Prince Alexandre), the other legally untitled wife of a Prince of Belgium. But the King has not bestowed courtesy titles on any of the legally untitled husbands of Princesses of Belgium.

 

[meeralakshmi]

The King may also grant a courtesy (not legally recognized) title to the spouse of a royal, without creating a legal title for them.

For example, Prince Amedeo’s wife Elisabetta remains legally untitled. Therefore, in an official Royal Decree, she is mentioned as plain “Mrs. Elisabetta Maria Rosboch von Wolkenstein”.

But apart from legal documents, King Philippe has had the Royal Palace formally refer to Elisabetta as HRH and as “Princess Elisabetta”, “Princess Elisabetta Rosboch von Wolkenstein”, and “Princess Amedeo of Belgium”.

(However, the Palace never refers to her as Princess Elisabetta of Belgium because the style “Princess (Own Forename) of Belgium” is currently reserved for legal Princesses of Belgium.)


The same treatment is accorded to Léa (widow of Prince Alexandre), the other legally untitled wife of a Prince of Belgium. But the King has not bestowed courtesy titles on any of the legally untitled husbands of Princesses of Belgium.

Wish they had given William a courtesy title, his son would still be Mr. Albert Isvy. According to Léa’s Wikipedia page she is HRH Princess Léa of Belgium, do you have proof of it being otherwise?

 

[Tatiana Maria]

According to Léa’s Wikipedia page she is HRH Princess Léa of Belgium, do you have proof of it being otherwise?

Wikipedia is quite unreliable in regard to titles, unfortunately.

On the matter of Léa's official title, the Royal Palace issued an announcement in July 1998, as reported by the news agency Belga.

Translation:

The Royal Palace confirmed the information given by the satirical weekly magazine Pan: Prince Alexandre, half-brother of Kings Baudouin and Albert II, married Léa Wolman in 1991. The wife of Prince Alexandre will not personally be a holder of the title of Princess, but the couple may bear for life the title of Prince and Princess Alexandre of Belgium.​

Original:

CACHOTTERIE PRINCIÈRE
Mis en ligne le 25/07/1998 à 00:00

Le Palais royal a confirmé l'information donnée par l'hebdomadaire satirique «Pan»: le prince Alexandre, demi-frère des rois Baudouin et Albert II, a épousé Léa Wolman en 1991. L'épouse du prince Alexandre ne sera pas détentrice personnellement du titre de princesse, mais le couple pourra porter à vie le titre de prince et princesse Alexandre de Belgique. (Belga.)​

CACHOTTERIE PRINCIÈRE

www.lesoir.be

Here is the Royal Palace announcement of Prince Alexandre’s death in 2009, in which Léa is accordingly styled “Princess Alexandre of Belgium”:

La Monarchie belge: Accueil - Actualités - Agenda - Décès du Prince Alexandre de Belgique

web.archive.org

Décès du Prince Alexandre de Belgique

La Princesse Alexandre de Belgique, la Princesse Esmeralda et la Princesse Marie-Christine, le Roi et la Reine et les Membres de la Famille Royale ont la douleur d'annoncer le décès du Prince Alexandre de Belgique cet après-midi des suites d'une embolie pulmonaire foudroyante.​

Wish they had given William a courtesy title,

Agreed; there was no good reason to discriminate by gender in their situation.

 

[meeralakshmi]

It is a long story as controversies over their predicates lingered throughout most of the nineteenth century, but the short answer is April 1844. In that month, the three reigning dukes in the House of Saxony (the Dukes of Saxe-Altenburg, Saxe-Meiningen, and Saxe-Coburg and Gotha) signed an agreement between themselves which stipulated that the reigning dukes and certain senior members of their families, including their children, would henceforth be upgraded from Ducal Serene Highness to Highness.

Note that the German predicate “Durchlaucht”, which is conventionally translated to English as “Serene Highness”, in fact does not contain the German word for Highness, which is “Hoheit”.

Makes sense, then we can indeed expect that Nicolas and Aymeric’s children will be HH Prince/Princess X of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

If Leopold and Lilian had married under different circumstances, I'm sure Lilian would have been Queen, just like the other 7 consorts of Belgian Kings. Their daughters wouldn't have had succession rights in any case, as they aren't descendants of King Albert II. Alexandre's position is more controversial (it has of course no practical relevance nowadays: he died without descendants in 2009 and he would've lost his succession rights anyway in 1991 when he married without consent): some say he had succession rights as he was a legitimate male-line descendant of King Leopold I, others (and that's the official position) argue that he's excluded due to the unconstitutional nature of his parents' marriage (as it was not approved by the government, which was at the time of the marriage in exile in London and didn't approve of Leopold's conduct during the war).

Lilian would have been queen by default but asked not to be. Maybe it was also due to the controversy caused by an unequal marriage.

There was an abundance of controversy, but the official position which the governments of Belgium eventually settled on was:

1. The marriage of Leopold III and Lilian was unconstitutional. The Constitution of Belgium required all constitutional acts of the King to be approved by the Government. The marriage was not approved by the Government; therefore it was not a constitutional act.

2. Because the marriage was unconstitutional, it had no effect in public law.

3. The position of queen (consort) and the succession to the throne were matters of public law. Because Leopold III and Lilian’s marriage had no public-law effects, the marriage could not create Lilian queen or grant their children succession rights to the throne.

4. Leopold III and Lilian’s renunciation had no effect, as the King was not entitled to unilaterally decide matters of constitutional law.

5. Legitimacy was a matter of private law. The marriage was valid as far as private law was concerned, so Alexandre was a legitimate child.


For the government’s position statement and legal citations, see pages 5-8 of the minutes of the Senate session of June 6, 1991.

https://www.senate.be/lexdocs/S0509/S05091665.pdf

 

[meeralakshmi]

Sa Majesté la Reine Paola Margherita Maria-Antonia Consiglia des Princes Ruffo di Calabria, Princesse de Belgique, Grand Cordon de l'Ordre de Léopold

Sa Majesté la Reine Mathilde Marie Christine Ghislaine comtesse d'Udekem d'Acoz, Princesse de Belgique

They could very well give the title held by Mathilde and Paola to Elisabeth’s husband since their title and style as queen consorts (HM Queen X, Princess of Belgium/HM Koningin X, Prinses van België/SM la Reine X, Princesse de Belgique/IM Königin X, Prinzessin von Belgien) clearly differs from the title and style Elisabeth will have as queen regnant (HM The Queen of the Belgians/HM de Koningin der Belgen/SM la Reine des Belges/IM die Königin der Belgier). Therefore Elisabeth’s husband being styled HM King X, Prince of Belgium/ZM Koning X, Prins van België/SM le Roi X, Prince de Belgique/SM König X, Prinz von Belgien would differentiate him from the past kings regnant who were styled HM The King of the Belgians/ZM de Koning der Belgen/SM le Roi des Belges/SM der König der Belgier.

 

[meeralakshmi]

By the way, Mathilde, despite now holding the courtesy title of Queen (as the wife of the King) remains legally a Princess of Belgium too. Contrary to a common misconception, she does not have the official title of "Queen of the Belgians" (although she is often referred as such in the English-speaking media). Her correct style would be: Sa Majesté la Reine Mathilde Marie Christine Ghislaine comtesse d'Udekem d'Acoz, Princesse de Belgique.

In that respect, see for example how Queen Paola was cited in then Prince Philippe's marriage certificate (source)

Mathilde and Paola are indeed still princesses of Belgium, since their titles differ from the one Elisabeth will have as queen regnant (HM The Queen of the Belgians) they could use the male equivalent for Elisabeth’s husband.

(As a side note: Although the legal surname is a different thing than the legal title, the surname and title may nevertheless be connected. The Netherlands and Belgium (I am not sure about Luxembourg) have introduced the general rule that a noble title may not be transmitted without the associated surname. For example, if one of Stéphanie’s brothers gave his children their mother’s surname instead of “de Lannoy”, those children would not inherit the Count title.)

I would assume that Mathilde and Claire were given the titles princess of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha and duchess of Saxony but Lorenz wasn’t.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

I would assume that Mathilde and Claire were given the titles princess of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha and duchess of Saxony but Lorenz wasn’t.

According to the Palace's information provided to the publication Le Carnet Mondain in 2017, none of the consorts carry the Saxon titles:

Surprising indeed on finding "Le carnet mondain" in its 2017 edition. All of the members of the royal family born in descent from Leopold I (thus not the wives of the kings, Mathilde and Paola, or the spouses of the princes, Lorenz and Claire), with the exception of the children/grandchild of Astrid and Lorenz, henceforth carry as well the titles of "Duke of Saxony, Prince of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha" or "Duchess of Saxony, Princess of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha".

[...]

[...] the bulky work specifies that "the information concerning the royal family of Belgium is reproduced from that which was communicated to us by the Palace"."

La famille royale s’appelle à nouveau de Saxe-Cobourg

Elle a repris, à l’exception de la « branche » Astrid, son ancien titre allemand. Pour le transmettre aux descendants qui ne peuvent plus être des « de Belgique ». La preuve par « Le carnet mondain ».

plus.lesoir.be

It is an interesting choice by King Philippe, since the Saxon titles were German by origin, and German tradition would have the approved wives of princes share their husbands' titles.

But it is easy to deduce why King Philippe did not accord the Saxon titles to Mathilde and Claire.

It is public knowledge that King Philippe revived the Saxon titles to justify his interpretation that the legal surname of his male-line family members is "of Saxe-Coburg", not "of Belgium" (and therefore to justify his 2015 decree to limit the number of future "of Belgium" descendants).

However, nobody (in Belgium, that is ...) questions that Mathilde, Claire, Paola and Lorenz retained their legal surnames of "d'Udekem d'Acoz", "Coombs", etc. (Under Belgian law, people do not legally change their name upon marriage, even if many women socially assume their husbands' surnames.) Thus, there was no need to grant them a rehabilitated title to justify registering them under a rehabilitated surname.

 

[meeralakshmi]

However, nobody (in Belgium, that is ...) questions that Mathilde, Claire, Paola and Lorenz retained their legal surnames of "d'Udekem d'Acoz", "Coombs", etc. (Under Belgian law, people do not legally change their name upon marriage, even if many women socially assume their husbands' surnames.) Thus, there was no need to grant them a rehabilitated title to justify registering them under a rehabilitated surname.

It indeed appears that none of the Belgian consorts took their husband's surname. It makes sense that wives of princes wouldn't either.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

It indeed appears that none of the Belgian consorts took their husband's surname. It makes sense that wives of princes wouldn't either.

Exactly. Even when Mathilde and Claire were legally created Princesses of Belgium, the Royal Decrees specified that they would keep their own surnames in legal acts. For example, the decree for Claire stated:

Article 1. In the public and private acts relating to her, Miss Claire Louise Coombs will be referred to as Princess of Belgium following her own names.

https://www.ejustice.just.fgov.be/mopdf/2003/04/08_1.pdf#Page8

It is important to mention that in the French and Dutch languages, the term “name” ordinarily denotes either the surname or the full name – unlike English, in which “name” ordinarily denotes either the forename or the full name.

That is why forms written in English ask for one’s “name and surname”, but forms written in Dutch or French ask for one’s “forename and name”.


In application of the decree, this is how Claire was styled in the Moniteur Belge/Belgische Staatsblad, the official record of Belgian legislation:

By royal decree of 14 July 2004 was awarded:
Grand Ribbon
Princess Claire Coombs, Princess of Belgium.

Moniteur belge

www.ejustice.just.fgov.be

 

[Tatiana Maria]

Table of contents: Unfinished series on the 2015 royal decree

Years ago I began, but never completed, a series of posts attempting to explain King Philippe’s much-misunderstood decree from 2015 on royal titles, predicates and surnames.

The Royal Decree of November 12, 2015:

Moniteur belge

www.ejustice.just.fgov.be

Since a new thread has been opened, and some of the links in the older posts no longer work, I will start afresh with any new explanatory posts in the future, when I find the time.

However, for reference, the old posts can be found at the below links, and I hope they can still be of some use.


Post 1. The laws of surnames in Belgium.

Titles of the Belgian Royal Family 1: Ending Aug.2023

1. It is unclear to me if the title of "Prince Amedeo"/"Princess Maria Laura" given in their birth certificates and birth announcements was inherited from their father or not. On all Belgian official documents I have seen from prior to 1995 (examples given on request), Lorenz was given only the...

www.theroyalforums.com

Posts 2 and 3. The distinction between noble titles and surnames in Belgium.

Titles of the Belgian Royal Family 1: Ending Aug.2023

1. It is unclear to me if the title of "Prince Amedeo"/"Princess Maria Laura" given in their birth certificates and birth announcements was inherited from their father or not. On all Belgian official documents I have seen from prior to 1995 (examples given on request), Lorenz was given only the...

www.theroyalforums.com

Titles of the Belgian Royal Family 1: Ending Aug.2023

1. It is unclear to me if the title of "Prince Amedeo"/"Princess Maria Laura" given in their birth certificates and birth announcements was inherited from their father or not. On all Belgian official documents I have seen from prior to 1995 (examples given on request), Lorenz was given only the...

www.theroyalforums.com

Post 4. Title and surname usage in legal documents by the royal family before 2015.

Titles of the Belgian Royal Family 1: Ending Aug.2023

1. It is unclear to me if the title of "Prince Amedeo"/"Princess Maria Laura" given in their birth certificates and birth announcements was inherited from their father or not. On all Belgian official documents I have seen from prior to 1995 (examples given on request), Lorenz was given only the...

www.theroyalforums.com

Post 5. The reasons why “of Belgium” was regarded as a surname.

Titles of the Belgian Royal Family 1: Ending Aug.2023

1. It is unclear to me if the title of "Prince Amedeo"/"Princess Maria Laura" given in their birth certificates and birth announcements was inherited from their father or not. On all Belgian official documents I have seen from prior to 1995 (examples given on request), Lorenz was given only the...

www.theroyalforums.com

Post 6. The prior consensus that “of Belgium” was a surname, and why it matters, legally, whether “of Belgium” is regarded as a surname or a title.

Titles of the Belgian Royal Family 1: Ending Aug.2023

1. It is unclear to me if the title of "Prince Amedeo"/"Princess Maria Laura" given in their birth certificates and birth announcements was inherited from their father or not. On all Belgian official documents I have seen from prior to 1995 (examples given on request), Lorenz was given only the...

www.theroyalforums.com

 

[meeralakshmi]

Yes, Belgium is another good example of married princesses retaining their own full name and title. Officially, Esmeralda and her also married sister are simply "(HRH Princess) of Belgium" (though they privately use their husbands' names).

Does this also apply to Astrid?