Titles of the Belgian Royal Family 1: Ending Aug.2023

[Stefan]

Princess/Prince has always preceded the royal person's first name, whether or not the surname is used. See how Princess Claire was noted in the official announcement about her conferral with the Order of Leopold.

Bij koninklijk besluit van 14 juli 2004 werd benoemd :
Grootlint
Prinses Claire Coombs, Prinses van België.

Par arrêté royal du 14 juillet 2004 a été nommée :
Grand Cordon
la Princesse Claire Coombs, Princesse de Belgique.

(By royal decree of 14 July 2004 was awarded:
Grand Ribbon
Princess Claire Coombs, Princess of Belgium.)

https://www.ejustice.just.fgov.be/c..._date=2005-01-05&numac=2004015232&caller=list​

Coombs is the legal surname of Princess Claire.

"d'Autriche-Este (Habsbourg-Lorraine)" is the legal surname of Princess Maria Laura. (Refer to the explanation in the post on March 3: https://www.theroyalforums.com/foru...elgian-royal-family-38975-24.html#post2455661)


And the designation of Princess/Prince preceding the first name is independent of the functional title of Princess/Prince of Belgium. Maria Laura's niece Anna Astrid is registered as Princess Anna Astrid but, under the royal decree of 2015 Princess of Belgium, does not have the title Princess of Belgium.

But so it gives an wrong impression that Maria Laura is Princess of Autrich-Este which is wrong.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

Yes, when the Belgians do not want to use the foreign title, your suggestion Maria Laura d'Autriche-Este, princesse de Belgique is the best. Her father was Lorenz d'Autriche-Este before he was created prince de Belgique.

The most precise, of course, is l'archiduchesse Maria Laura d'Autriche-Este, princesse de Belgique.

 

[An Ard Ri]

Yes, when the Belgians do not want to use the foreign title, your suggestion Maria Laura d'Autriche-Este, princesse de Belgique is the best. Her father was Lorenz d'Autriche-Este before he was created prince de Belgique.

The most precise, of course, is l'archiduchesse Maria Laura d'Autriche-Este, princesse de Belgique.

And the children of Astrid and Lorenz were not made Prince/Princess of Belgium until 1991 and would have been styled Archduke/Archduchess prior to that.

 

[Mbruno]

But so it gives an wrong impression that Maria Laura is Princess of Autrich-Este which is wrong.

Not really. As explained by Tatiana Maria, the correct form to cite a Prince or Princess of Belgium in official documents is:

[His/Her Royal Highness] Prince/Princess [Given names] [Family Name, if used], [Dynastic titles, when applicable. e.g. Duke/Duchess of Brabant],
[Prince/Princess of Belgium], [Other titles inherited by descent].

The order shown above (Given Names/ Family Name/ Dynastic Title/ Prince(ss) of Belgium/ Other Titles) is explicitly mandated in the Royal Decrees that regulate the titles and styles of the Royal Famly and cannot be changed. In Maria Laura's case, since "d'Autriche-Este (Habsbourg-Lorraine)" precedes "Princesse de Belgique", it is interpreted to be a surname rather than a non-Belgian title inherited by descent.

 

[Stefan]

Not really. As explained by Tatiana Maria, the correct form to cite a Prince or Princess of Belgium in official documents is:

[His/Her Royal Highness] Prince/Princess [Given names] [Family Name, if used], [Dynastic titles, when applicable. e.g. Duke/Duchess of Brabant],
[Prince/Princess of Belgium], [Other titles inherited by descent].

The order shown above (Given Names/ Family Name/ Dynastic Title/ Prince(ss) of Belgium/ Other Titles) is explicitly mandated in the Royal Decrees that regulate the titles and styles of the Royal Famly and cannot be changed. In Maria Laura's case, since "d'Autriche-Este (Habsbourg-Lorraine)" precedes "Princesse de Belgique", it is interpreted to be a surname rather than a non-Belgian title inherited by descent.

That is something we here as the Experts know but the normal Person on the street doesn't and get's the Impression that she is a Princess of Austria-Este. And i don't understand why once it is used and once not. Seems inconsistent.

 

[maria-olivia]

Nobody in Belgium know Princess Astrid Children and we don' t care about their titles!

 

[Denville]

That is surprising as they are the Kings nephews and neices

 

[maria-olivia]

they live more abroad than in Belgium.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

I am sure that conferrring the titles of prince/ss of Belgien made the newly prince/ss of Belgium the prince/ss. As far as I read many decrees about Russian and British royals I am sure Leopold II could not imagine your intepretation that only prince/ss of nonamed royal house can be belgian royals.

It is only your [wrong] interpretation. All three decrees conferred title "prince/ss of Belgium" and said nothing about additional conditions "who were already princes". What about grand dukes of Russia, who are not princes? Arcdukes of Austria who are not princes of Modena?

When one glances at nineteenth-century European history one sees that what would truly be unimaginable to any European monarch of 1891 is the opinion that a royal house could be composed of non-princes/ses. The Grand Dukes/Duchesses of Russia and Archdukes/Archduchesses of Austria absolutely were considered, and titled as, princes/ses. Membership of the imperial houses of Russia and Austria was restricted to persons of prince/ssly rank and carrying prince/ssly titles, and any individuals who lost their rank and title also saw their membership removed.

The insistence that Leopold II could not imagine limiting the royal family to only princes/ses and that the members of the royal family were not made princes/ses until 1891 is the actual "[wrong] interpretation". Moreover, it is well documented (see my earlier posts and the next post) that they were titled "Prince/ss" in royal decrees, court announcements, etc. before 1891.

Even if the 1891 and 1991 decrees had not excluded descendants born out of wedlock

Why "even"? They obviously had not exclude.

Why "obviously"? It would have been likewise unimaginable in the European royal world of 1891 (or even 1991) for illegitimate descendants to be conferred with royal titles as a regular procedure.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

Continued from the previous post ...

In message #442, which was posted later, you seem to have acknowledged that the members of the Belgian royal family were styled as princes/ses before 1891, though you continued to state that it was "custom" and not "law". I appreciate the concession, but the comment that the royals were not legally created princes/ses until 1891 conflicts with the myriad legal documents, filed before 1891, representing members of the royal family as "prince/ss".

Again, see how Princess Henriette's father the Count of Flanders was cited in her birth certificate in 1870 (image in the linked page):

Son Altesse Royale Monseigneur le Prince Philippe-Eugène-Ferdinand-Marie-Clément-Baudouin-Léopold-George Comte de Flandre, Duc de Saxe, Prince de Saxe-Cobourg-Gotha​

https://www.vrt.be/vrtnws/nl/2018/12/03/henriette/


Morever, all of the royal decrees which were used to confer personal dynastic titles on male members of the royal family (the earliest one was issued in 1840) used "prince" preceding their names. For example:

"Art 1er. Notre fils bien-aimé le prince Léopold-(...) prendra le titre de Duc de Brabant. Ce titre sera toujours à l'avenir, porté par le prince fils aîné du roi, et, à son défaut, par le prince petit-fils aîné du roi.

Art. 2. Notre fils bien-aimé le prince Philippe-(...) prendra le titre de comte de Flandre."
​

https://www.heraldica.org/topics/royalty/royalbelge.htm#Brabant

 

[Tatiana Maria]

As I answered to Prinsara, they presumably believed the wording "Princes and Princesses" in the 1891 decree was sufficient to exclude illegitimate children, since illegitimate children are not princes and princesses under Belgian nobiliary law.

Are you aware that Belgian nobiliary law is not the same as Belgian dynastic law?

No, I am not aware of that, because Belgian dynastic titles are Belgian noble titles.

Belgian royal titles, dynastic or otherwise, belong to the Belgian nobility. All decrees conferring titles on members of the royal family since 1991 (including the 2015 decree) have referenced Article 75, or Article 113 as it is numbered today, of the Constitution, which states:

Article 113

The King may confer titles of nobility, without ever having the power to attach privileges to them.​

So, conferrals of titles in the Belgian royal dynasty are also conferrals of titles in the Belgian nobility. In accordance with that principle, titles such as Prince of Belgium and Princess of Belgium are legally registered as titles of nobility, as stipulated in federal guidance.

https://www.theroyalforums.com/foru...elgian-royal-family-38975-24.html#post2455661
https://www.ibz.rrn.fgov.be/fileadm...ructions/liste-TI/TI012_Titre_de_noblesse.pdf

 

[Tatiana Maria]

An additional proof that the Brussels Court of Appeals' interpretation of the decree of November 24, 2015 (which provides in Article 2 that "the Princes and the Princesses, children and grandchildren, born in direct descendance from His Majesty King Albert II carry the title of Prince or of Princess of Belgium") was not originally the intent of the decree:

The Court of Appeals read "the Princes and the Princesses, children and grandchildren" in the 2015 decree as equivalent to "the children and grandchildren". However, if we use the Court of Appeals reading, then the decree of December 16, 1840 should have made King Leopold II's grandson Prince Leopold of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha (1878-1916) the Duke of Brabant.

The original text of Article 1 of the 1840 decree read:

Notre fils bien-aimé le prince Léopold-Louis-Philippe-Marie-Victor, prendra le titre de duc de Brabant.

Ce titre sera toujours, à l'avenir, porté par le prince fils aîné du roi, et, à son défaut, par le prince petit-fils aîné du roi.

https://www.heraldica.org/topics/royalty/royalbelge.htm#Brabant

Translation:

Our well-beloved son Prince Léopold Louis Philippe Marie Victor shall take the title of Duke of Brabant.

This title shall always, in the future, be carried by the prince, oldest son of the king, and, in the absence thereof, by the prince, oldest grandson of the king.

​

Between 1878 and 1909, Leopold II, reigning King of the Belgians, had no son. However, he had one grandson by his eldest daughter Louise, who had married into a foreign royal family: Prince Leopold of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha.

If (as the Brussels court of appeal ruled) the term Prince/Princess does not specify only those descendants who are already Belgian royals and "prince, oldest grandson of the king" is equivalent to "oldest grandson of the king", then why was Prince Leopold of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha never styled Duke of Brabant under the 1840 decree, as the oldest grandson of the king who had no surviving son?

 

[Mbruno]

An additional proof that the Brussels Court of Appeals' interpretation of the decree of November 24, 2015 (which provides in Article 2 that "the Princes and the Princesses, children and grandchildren, born in direct descendance from His Majesty King Albert II carry the title of Prince or of Princess of Belgium") was not originally the intent of the decree:

The Court of Appeals read "the Princes and the Princesses, children and grandchildren" in the 2015 decree as equivalent to "the children and grandchildren". However, if we use the Court of Appeals reading, then the decree of December 16, 1840 should have made King Leopold II's grandson Prince Leopold of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha (1878-1916) the Duke of Brabant.

The original text of Article 1 of the 1840 decree read:

Notre fils bien-aimé le prince Léopold-Louis-Philippe-Marie-Victor, prendra le titre de duc de Brabant.

Ce titre sera toujours, à l'avenir, porté par le prince fils aîné du roi, et, à son défaut, par le prince petit-fils aîné du roi.

https://www.heraldica.org/topics/royalty/royalbelge.htm#Brabant

Translation:

Our well-beloved son Prince Léopold Louis Philippe Marie Victor shall take the title of Duke of Brabant.

This title shall always, in the future, be carried by the prince, oldest son of the king, and, in the absence thereof, by the prince, oldest grandson of the king.

​

Between 1878 and 1909, Leopold II, reigning King of the Belgians, had no son. However, he had one grandson by his eldest daughter Louise, who had married into a foreign royal family: Prince Leopold of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha.

If (as the Brussels court of appeal ruled) the term Prince/Princess does not specify only those descendants who are already Belgian royals and "prince, oldest grandson of the king" is equivalent to "oldest grandson of the king", then why was Prince Leopold of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha never styled Duke of Brabant under the 1840 decree, as the oldest grandson of the king who had no surviving son?

Again, I think the 1840 decree was just badly worded. " Et, à son défaut, par le prince petit-fils aîné du roi" was probably intended to mean instead: "Et, à son défaut, par le prince fils aîné du fils aîné du roi".

A gender-neutral version of the second wording I proposed above was actually used in the new decree of October 2001 that now regulates the use of the title of Duke (or Duchess) of Brabant.

 

[Prinsara]

There is nothing about legitimacy in the 1840 decree, either. Would they have subsequently had to take the title from Leopold of SCG and give it to his grandfather's oldest son by Mme Delacroix?

Also, relations between Leopold and Louise became possibly worse than Albert and Delphine. I'm not sure Leopold cared to be reminded she existed, let alone give marks of favor to her children.

 

[maria-olivia]

Leopold II is not the Grand Father of Leopold III . The 2 Children of leopold II and Blanche Delacroix , Duchesse de Vaughan were tittled but have no descendence
Princess Clementine the only Daughter King Leopold II was kind with had to wait her Father passing away to marry Prince Victor Napoléon . When Stephanie married the Comte de Lonyay , she lost all her Austrian tittles and was as Louise desherited by her Father. But is was a happy Wedding.

 

[Prinsara]

Why is she simply referred to as "Princess Elisabeth" and not the Duchess of Brabant?

 

[Stefan]

Why is she simply referred to as "Princess Elisabeth" and not the Duchess of Brabant?

I think there is no tradition in the belgian RF to do so. Philippe and Mathilde where also always referred to as Prince Philippe and Princess Mathilde before they became King and Queen-

 

[Prinsara]

I think there is no tradition in the belgian RF to do so. Philippe and Mathilde where also always referred to as Prince Philippe and Princess Mathilde before they became King and Queen-

Must be a recent tradition. Albert and Paola were always the Prince and Princess of Liège, were they not? And this title was kept because it's the only one that works bilingually.

 

[Skippy]

Must be a recent tradition. Albert and Paola were always the Prince and Princess of Liège, were they not? And this title was kept because it's the only one that works bilingually.

They were indeed. I think the use of the formal titles ended when Albert ascended the throne. Because Philippe was - as far as I know - never referred to as the Duke of Brabant.


Elisabeth looks stunning - what an elegance. A true lady.

 

[Mbruno]

Why is she simply referred to as "Princess Elisabeth" and not the Duchess of Brabant?

In the Court website and also on her 18th birthday, she is/was referred to as HRH Princess Elisabeth, Duchess of Brabant.

Her official legal name/titles under the Belgian royal decrees regulating the matter (and the way she would be cited in official documents) is:

Son Altesse Royale la Princesse Elisabeth Thérèse Marie Hélène, Duchesse de Brabant, Princesse de Belgique

or

Hare Koninklijke Hoogheid Prinses Elisabeth Theresia Maria Helena, Hertogin van Brabant, Prinses van België.

It appears that the British-like custon of referring to her simply as "the Duchess of Brabant" is not common in Belgium. Note also that "Duchess of Brabant" is not a peerage or a title of nobility, but is considered a "dynastic title" in the terminology of the royal decrees.

EDIT: I don't know if she also uses an official German translation of her given names.

Now that she is carrying out official solo engagements, will Elisabeth begin receiving an apartment from the Government, or will she continue to be supported by her parents?

Right now, during the academic school year, she is living at her college in Oxford and, when she is back in Belgium, I suppose she still lives with her family at the Castle of Laeken. I don't see a need for the government to provide her with a separate residence or apartment. When she moves to her own home, I suppose it will be a Royal Trust property rather than a state-owned apartment.



Elisabeth has also declined a government dotation for now and I don't expect her to receive public money until she completes her university studies at least (including any eventual postgraduate courses). I assume that, when she attends solo public events like those this week, the Royal Household is paying for all the associated costs as far she is concerned. Her parents are most likely also paying for her wardrobe, jewelery, etc, out of their own appanage.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

In the Court website and also on her 18th birthday, she is/was referred to as HRH Princess Elisabeth, Duchess of Brabant.

Her official legal name/titles under the Belgian royal decrees regulating the matter (and the way she would be cited in official documents) is:

Son Altesse Royale la Princesse Elisabeth Thérèse Marie Hélène, Duchesse de Brabant, Princesse de Belgique

or

Hare Koninklijke Hoogheid Prinses Elisabeth Theresia Maria Helena, Hertogin van Brabant, Prinses van België.

It appears that the British-like custon of referring to her simply as "the Duchess of Brabant" is not common in Belgium. Note also that "Duchess of Brabant" is not a peerage or a title of nobility, but is considered a "dynastic title" in the terminology of the royal decrees.

Exactly. The correct short form of her title is "HRH Princess Elisabeth", not "the Duchess of Brabant. "Her Royal Highness Princess Elisabeth" is the form used the entries in the court agenda for this engagement and her engagement on Sunday.

https://www.monarchie.be/nl/agenda/3d-printlaboratorium

3D-printlaboratorium
30 juni 2022

Hare Koninklijke Hoogheid Prinses Elisabeth huldigt een 3D-printlaboratorium in aan de Katholieke Universiteit van Leuven (KUL). Deze ultramoderne onderzoeksinfrastructuur kreeg de naam ‘Princess Elisabeth Additive Manufacturing Lab’. Prinses Elisabeth bezoekt het departement Werktuigkunde van de KUL en krijgt een rondleiding in het gloednieuwe laboratorium dat haar naam draagt.


https://www.monarchie.be/fr/agenda/rv-belgica

RV Belgica
25 juin 2022

Son Altesse Royale la Princesse Elisabeth baptise le navire de recherche océanographique Belgica à Gand. Le RV Belgica jouera un rôle clé dans la recherche marine belge et européenne au cours des prochaines décennies. Grâce au nouveau navire, les scientifiques marins seront en mesure de poursuivre et même d'étendre leurs missions de recherche de plusieurs jours ou plusieurs semaines dans les eaux belges et au-delà.

L'État belge, représenté par le Bureau fédéral de la politique scientifique (BELSPO), est propriétaire du navire. L'Institut royal des sciences naturelles de Belgique (IRSNB) gérera le navire en collaboration avec le ministère de la défense et un opérateur privé.​

Will respond in due course to the posts on the general subject of titles. (In short, the form "the Duke/Duchess of Brabant" has not been in use since the early 20th century.)

 

[Skippy]

Exactly. The short form of her title is HRH Princess Elisabeth, not "the Duchess of Brabant. "Her Royal Highness Princess Elisabeth" is the form used the entries in the court agenda for this engagement and her engagement on Sunday.

https://www.monarchie.be/nl/agenda/3d-printlaboratorium

3D-printlaboratorium
30 juni 2022

Hare Koninklijke Hoogheid Prinses Elisabeth huldigt een 3D-printlaboratorium in aan de Katholieke Universiteit van Leuven (KUL). Deze ultramoderne onderzoeksinfrastructuur kreeg de naam ‘Princess Elisabeth Additive Manufacturing Lab’. Prinses Elisabeth bezoekt het departement Werktuigkunde van de KUL en krijgt een rondleiding in het gloednieuwe laboratorium dat haar naam draagt.


https://www.monarchie.be/fr/agenda/rv-belgica

RV Belgica
25 juin 2022

Son Altesse Royale la Princesse Elisabeth baptise le navire de recherche océanographique Belgica à Gand. Le RV Belgica jouera un rôle clé dans la recherche marine belge et européenne au cours des prochaines décennies. Grâce au nouveau navire, les scientifiques marins seront en mesure de poursuivre et même d'étendre leurs missions de recherche de plusieurs jours ou plusieurs semaines dans les eaux belges et au-delà.

L'État belge, représenté par le Bureau fédéral de la politique scientifique (BELSPO), est propriétaire du navire. L'Institut royal des sciences naturelles de Belgique (IRSNB) gérera le navire en collaboration avec le ministère de la défense et un opérateur privé.​

Will respond in due course to the posts on the general subject of titles. (In short, the form "the Duke/Duchess of Brabant" has not been in use since the early 20th century.)

Those titles were out of use even earlier than I thought, then.

 

[rominet09]

They were indeed. I think the use of the formal titles ended when Albert ascended the throne. Because Philippe was - as far as I know - never referred to as the Duke of Brabant.


Elisabeth looks stunning - what an elegance. A true lady.

Sorry but Liège is named "Luik" in Flanders.

 

[Skippy]

Sorry but Liège is named "Luik" in Flanders.

I know, but what does it have to do with Philippe being Duke of Brabant at the time? He has never been Prince de Liège. His father was and that ended in 1993.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

I know, but what does it have to do with Philippe being Duke of Brabant at the time? He has never been Prince de Liège. His father was and that ended in 1993.

In 2001 King Albert II decided that the honorifics Graaf van Vlaanderen (Comte de Flandre), Comte de Hainaut (Graaf van Henegouwen) and Prince de Liège (Prins van Luik) would no longer be granted given the linguistic implications.

Brabant, the heartland of Belgium, is bilingual so the honorific Hertog van Brabant (Duc de Brabant) remains in use.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

The 2001 decree only dealt with the titles Duke of Brabant and Count of Hainaut. It abolished the rule (set down in the Royal Decree of September 10, 1930) that the title Count of Hainaut was automatically awarded to the eldest son of the Duke of Brabant, and introduced a gender-neutral rule for the title Duke (Duchess) of Brabant.

https://www.heraldica.org/topics/royalty/royalbelge.htm#Hainaut
https://www.heraldica.org/topics/royalty/royalbelge.htm#Brabant

The titles Prince of Liège and Count of Flanders had never been made automatic, and no one held them in 2001 (the last Count of Flanders died in 1983 and the last Prince of Liège acceded to the throne in 1993), so there was no need for the King to take any action. By simply not awarding them again, the titles will not return.

https://www.heraldica.org/topics/royalty/royalbelge.htm#Liège

 

[Prinsara]

Then shouldn't we stop calling her the Duchess of Brabant, since no one in Belgium does?

 

[Somebody]

Then shouldn't we stop calling her the Duchess of Brabant, since no one in Belgium does?

Only if 'we' have consistently chosen 'HRH The Duchess of Brabant' over 'HRH princess Elisabeth' - and I don't believe 'we' have. Although I did notice that the Norwegian royal house did so recent.

She is ALSO the Duchess of Brabant. So, calling her HRH The Duchess of Brabant instead of HRH Princess Elisabeth is applying British or Dutch rules to a Belgian situation - but adding it to her full name and title is of course perfectly fine. I've never heard anyone state that we can no longer call Crown princess Victoria also Duchess of Västergötland because she is and in specific situations (such as a visit to her duchy) that will be stressed but most of the time people will just use her princess-title (as is the practice in Sweden for all the princes and princesses).

FYI: In the Netherlands, Amalia's correct title is 'HRH the princess of Orange'.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

Only if 'we' have consistently chosen 'HRH The Duchess of Brabant' over 'HRH princess Elisabeth' - and I don't believe 'we' have. Although I did notice that the Norwegian royal house did so recent.

She is ALSO the Duchess of Brabant. So, calling her HRH The Duchess of Brabant instead of HRH Princess Elisabeth is applying British or Dutch rules to a Belgian situation - but adding it to her full name and title is of course perfectly fine. I've never heard anyone state that we can no longer call Crown princess Victoria also Duchess of Västergötland because she is and in specific situations (such as a visit to her duchy) that will be stressed but most of the time people will just use her princess-title (as is the practice in Sweden for all the princes and princesses).

FYI: In the Netherlands, Amalia's correct title is 'HRH the princess of Orange'.

And the Dutch Court (and all colleges of State) consistently use "The Princess of Orange" when using formal language. Maybe that title has more intrinsic weight than "The Duke of Brabant" although it always was the most important Dukedom of all Low Countries. Strange that the Belgian Court does not use it alike The Prince of Wales, The Princess of Asturias and The Princess of Orange. I think that "La Duchesse de Brabant" is a beautiful title of grand importance and deserve the same treatment as the three examples.

 

[An Ard Ri]

Then shouldn't we stop calling her the Duchess of Brabant, since no one in Belgium does?

Eh no as all you have to do is look at the Belgian Royal site ,see below
Princess Elisabeth, Duchess of Brabant

https://www.monarchie.be/en/royal-family/princess-elisabeth-duchess-of-brabant

Often royals are not always referred to by their official royal titles

The Prince of Wales is more often referred to as simply Prince Charles
The Princess Royal is more often referred to as simply Princess Anne and so on!