Titles Of Nobility And Aristocracy

[Queen Cutie]

I have read/heard somewhere that in terms of the British aristocracy, an earl whose title originates from a surname, e.g. Earl Spencer, outranks or is otherwise superior to an earl whose title originates from a place name. Is this true?


(Sorry if this question has been asked and answered before.)

 

[Denville]

I have read/heard somewhere that in terms of the British aristocracy, an earl whose title originates from a surname, e.g. Earl Spencer, outranks or is otherwise superior to an earl whose title originates from a place name. Is this true?


(Sorry if this question has been asked and answered before.)

Never heard of this. Titles are ranked in terms of their length of standing.

 

[Sionevar]

I have read/heard somewhere that in terms of the British aristocracy, an earl whose title originates from a surname, e.g. Earl Spencer, outranks or is otherwise superior to an earl whose title originates from a place name. Is this true?

(Sorry if this question has been asked and answered before.)

No, this is not correct. Within any given grade, a title is ranked based on i) which national peerage it belongs to and ii) its creation date.

I believe Earl Spencer himself has made this claim several times, for reasons that aren't hard to guess, but just because he says it, doesn't mean it is true

 

[Mbruno]

I have read/heard somewhere that in terms of the British aristocracy, an earl whose title originates from a surname, e.g. Earl Spencer, outranks or is otherwise superior to an earl whose title originates from a place name. Is this true?


(Sorry if this question has been asked and answered before.)

Not that I know. British Earls are ranked among themselves first according to which peerage their title belongs to, the ranking being (in descending order of precedence):

1. Peerage of England
2. Peerage of Scotland
3. Peerage of Great Britain
4. Peerage of Ireland
5. Peerage of the United Kingdom

Within the same peerage, they are ranked then by seniority with older titles (by date of creation) outranking newer ones.

 

[Denville]

No, this is not correct. Within any given grade, a title is ranked based on i) which national peerage it belongs to and ii) its creation date.

I believe Earl Spencer himself has made this claim several times, for reasons that aren't hard to guess, but just because he says it, doesn't mean it is true

When has Charles Spencer said this?

 

[Queen Cutie]

Many thanks for the replies to my question. Most informative.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

It occurs to me that under the Dutch Civil Code, the child of a nobleman must carry the surname of their noble father to inherit his nobility. So, the change in the Netherlands to give nobility to male-line descendants born out of wedlock will, in all likelihood, increase the number of members of the nobility much more rapidly than a hypothetical change to give women equal rights to transmit nobility would have, because approximately one in two children is now born to unmarried parents whereas only a small minority of children carry the surname of their mother.

With the start of the Kingdom of the Netherlands and the Grand-Duchy of Luxembourg (today's Benelux countries under the Crown of Willem I of Orange-Nassau, King of the Netherlands, Grand-Duke of Luxembourg) there were around 550 noble families in the newly established Peerage.

As of today, there are less than 300 noble families in said Peerage. More than 1/3 of these families effectively live outside the Netherlands (mainly in the former Southern Netherlands, now Belgium, so continue in the municipal registries of a foreign country). In 1939 was the last elevation of a Dutchman into the hereditary Nobility.

Since WWII, despite some incorporations of foreign Nobility and some recognitions of older existing Nobility pre-1792, more than 40 noble families have become extinct. So the conclusion is justified that with the Nobility Act 1994 the existing practice since since WWII to "phase out the Nobility" has become official policy.

By the way, back then in 1994 a majority in Parliament was willing to open succession via a female line when a lady appears to be the last holder of a noble title. But consultation amongst the Nobility itself and an advice by the High Council of Nobility learned they themselves preferred continuation of the existing "male only" inheritance, exactly to stress the historic character of the Nobility: a "glass dome" has been placed over the Nobility.

Even in Belgium and Spain, with an active nobiliary policy, there are hardly new hereditary noble creations, it almost exclusively are life Peerages since decades.

 

[An Ard Ri]

Such a shame that the Dutch Monarch can no longer award titles as in the UK/Spain and Belgium.

 

[Mbruno]

Such a shame that the Dutch Monarch can no longer award titles as in the UK/Spain and Belgium.

The Dutch monarch can still grant titles of nobility to members or former members of the Royal House. And, as Duc said, it is possible to recognize preexisting nobility held by families in the Low Countries prior to 1795 and to incorporate foreign titles into the nobility of the Netherlands subject to certain restrictions, e.g., the country where the title was awarded must have or have had at the time of the award a nobiliary law that is similar to that of the Netherlands.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

Since WWII, despite some incorporations of foreign Nobility and some recognitions of older existing Nobility pre-1792, more than 40 noble families have become extinct. So the conclusion is justified that with the Nobility Act 1994 the existing practice since since WWII to "phase out the Nobility" has become official policy.

By the way, back then in 1994 a majority in Parliament was willing to open succession via a female line when a lady appears to be the last holder of a noble title. But consultation amongst the Nobility itself and an advice by the High Council of Nobility learned they themselves preferred continuation of the existing "male only" inheritance, exactly to stress the historic character of the Nobility: a "glass dome" has been placed over the Nobility.

But again, the government did not let their supposed "phasing out" and "glass dome" policy discourage them from extending nobility and noble titles to additional male lines (namely, illegitimate and adoptive ones).

Thank you for the information about the numbers of Dutch noble families.

 

[Toledo]

The best source for fairly definitive answers to these sorts of questions is heraldica.org

These links are very informative:

• A Glossary of European Noble, Princely, Royal and Imperial Titles
• Royal Styles
• Styles of the Members of the British Royal Family

This site is also very useful:

British Titles of Nobility - An Introduction and Primer to the Peerage


lots of interesting reading! ?
.

No one did it best like Warren when giving a reply. I still have that Heraldica page as a bookmark all these years later since he posted it on 07-07-2011, 01:49 PM

 

[CyrilVladisla]

Some peerage titles have been created by combining other names.
The Viscount Alanbrooke was created by Alan Brooke by combining his first and last names.

 

[EuroJpnJoRoyals]

I would like to ask, if a Countess divorced her husband when her husband was still a heir of the dukedom, she would be known as Name, Marchioness/Countess of x.

What about her husband has inherit the Dukedom from his father? Would she also be promoted as Name, Duchess of X? Or remains as Name, Marchioness/Countess of X?

 

[duke of poliganc]

I have a question regarding titles of the nobility in Spain, sometimes some nobles are address with a lesser title first then a higher title afterwards, for example X 16 count of X , 5 Duke of X, is that tradition due to the age of the first title so the year of the creation of that title gives it precedent over the other title or is it according to which of the titles is associated with a grandee

 

[Tatiana Maria]

I have a question regarding titles of the nobility in Spain, sometimes some nobles are address with a lesser title first then a higher title afterwards, for example X 16 count of X , 5 Duke of X, is that tradition due to the age of the first title so the year of the creation of that title gives it precedent over the other title or is it according to which of the titles is associated with a grandee

Noble titles which are connected to grandeeships traditionally rank higher than titles with no grandeeship, regardless of the “rank” expressed in the titles themselves. Thus, a noble whose titles are a Viscountcy linked to a grandeeship and a Countship which is not linked to a grandeeship will customarily use the Viscount/ess title, as that is their highest title.

This echoes how a Grandee outranks a noble who bears no grandee rank. Infanta Elena’s daughter Victoria of Marichalar and Borbón is untitled, but as the non-royal child of an Infanta of Spain, she holds the rank of a Grandee per the 1987 royal title decree and custom. Thus, the untitled Doña Victoria outranks any outranks any “mere” marquess or marchioness who is not a Grandee.

However, I have also seen at least one case of a noble who uses a lesser title even when it is not linked to any grandeeship. Unfortunately, I am not informed enough to explain why that occurs.

 

[An Ard Ri]

Some peerage titles have been created by combining other names.
The Viscount Alanbrooke was created by Alan Brooke by combining his first and last names.

The 1st Viscount was previously a Baron and was elevated in 1946.
The Viscountcy of Alanbrooke became extinct in 2018.

 

[JR76]

The 1st Viscount was previously a Baron and was elevated in 1946.
The Viscountcy of Alanbrooke became extinct in 2018.

What a curious way to create a title.

 

[An Ard Ri]

What a curious way to create a title.

It was one of many honours Lord Alanbrooke received for his service during WWII including the Garter!
Sadly he died on the morning of the Garter Ceremony and Service ,he was given a funeral at Windsor 9 days later.

 

[theroyalfly]

I have a question regarding titles of the nobility in Spain, sometimes some nobles are address with a lesser title first then a higher title afterwards, for example X 16 count of X , 5 Duke of X, is that tradition due to the age of the first title so the year of the creation of that title gives it precedent over the other title or is it according to which of the titles is associated with a grandee

Spanish noble titles follow a clear hierarchy and tradition when listed. The primary factor determining the order of titles is their association with a Grandee or GE, not the age or creation date of the title. Titles with Grandee status always take precedence, regardless of rank (e.g., Duke, Marquess, Count). All Grandees are styled "The Most Excellent," while non-Grandee titles carry "The Most Illustrious."

For example, in the case of the 14th Duke of Abrantes GE, his primary title is listed first because it is a Dukedom with Grandee status. His next title, 6th Marquess of Duero GE, follows as it also carries Grandee status. Non-Grandee titles are listed afterward, in descending order of rank (e.g., Marquess, Count, Viscount).

The exception of the Dukedom of Fernandina, which lacks Grandee status, is rare. In general, Dukedoms are almost always Grandees, so a noble would not be styled as "16th Count of X" before "5th Duke of X" unless the Count title carried Grandee status and the Dukedom did not, which is highly unlikely. The hierarchy is:

• Grandee titles first, in order of rank (Duke, Marquess, Count, etc.).
• Non-Grandee titles next, in order of rank.
• Age of the title’s creation is irrelevant to this order.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

Spanish noble titles follow a clear hierarchy and tradition when listed. The primary factor determining the order of titles is their association with a Grandee or GE, not the age or creation date of the title. Titles with Grandee status always take precedence, regardless of rank (e.g., Duke, Marquess, Count). All Grandees are styled "The Most Excellent," while non-Grandee titles carry "The Most Illustrious."

For example, in the case of the 14th Duke of Abrantes GE, his primary title is listed first because it is a Dukedom with Grandee status. His next title, 6th Marquess of Duero GE, follows as it also carries Grandee status. Non-Grandee titles are listed afterward, in descending order of rank (e.g., Marquess, Count, Viscount).

The exception of the Dukedom of Fernandina, which lacks Grandee status, is rare. In general, Dukedoms are almost always Grandees, so a noble would not be styled as "16th Count of X" before "5th Duke of X" unless the Count title carried Grandee status and the Dukedom did not, which is highly unlikely. The hierarchy is:

• Grandee titles first, in order of rank (Duke, Marquess, Count, etc.).
• Non-Grandee titles next, in order of rank.
• Age of the title’s creation is irrelevant to this order.

I believe the OP was asking about cases where the order in which titles are used or listed does not follow the "logical" order you posted. There are cases of nobles who use a lower title, even if it is not attached to a Grandeeship of Spain.

 

[duke of poliganc]

Yes exactly, I asked the question primarily as the son of the late Duchess of Alba recently remarried and I saw a lot calling him “Cayetano Martínez de Irujo y Fitz-James Stuart, 14th Count of Salvatierra, 4th Duke of Arjona, Grandee of Spain”

 

[theroyalfly]

Yes exactly, I asked the question primarily as the son of the late Duchess of Alba recently remarried and I saw a lot calling him “Cayetano Martínez de Irujo y Fitz-James Stuart, 14th Count of Salvatierra, 4th Duke of Arjona, Grandee of Spain”

Only Wikipedia refers to him first as Count of Salvatierra and then as Duke of Arjona. Tatler and other major publications call him Duke of Arjona. Both titles, Count of Salvatierra and Duke of Arjona, are Grandees, so neither outranks the other based on that status alone.

In practice, Spanish nobles often choose one title as their primary identifier when they hold multiple titles. For example the then, Carlos Falcó, 5th Marquess of Griñón, was best known by that title despite later inheriting the older Marquessate of Castel-Moncayo, which even has a Grandee attached compared to the former.

 

[Somebody]

In this particular case, Cayetano became the count of Salvatierra in 1994 (BoE) but was only given the title of Duke of Arjona in 2013 (BoE), so that might be why some sources continue to reference him by his earlier title although the use of his higher ranking title would be more appropriate.

Another interesting question is why his brother Jacobo never received a ducal title from his mother (he is still 'only' a count, although with Grandeza) while his most of his siblings did... The only other one without a ducal title is Fernando, who is Marquis of San Vicente del Barco.

 

[theroyalfly]

In this particular case, Cayetano became the count of Salvatierra in 1994 (BoE) but was only given the title of Duke of Arjona in 2013 (BoE), so that might be why some sources continue to reference him by his earlier title although the use of his higher ranking title would be more appropriate.

Another interesting question is why his brother Jacobo never received a ducal title from his mother (he is still 'only' a count, although with Grandeza) while his most of his siblings did... The only other one without a ducal title is Fernando, who is Marquis of San Vicente del Barco.

In Spanish nobility, the transfer of titles is a personal choice made by the head of the house or the family itself.

The three remaining ducal titles—Dukedom of Alba, Dukedom of Berwick, and Dukedom of Liria and Jérica—are closely linked to the House of Alba and generally go only to the primary heir, Cayetano.

The reason why Eugenia, the youngest sibling and a woman, was granted a dukedom instead of her older brothers Jacobo or Fernando is also unclear to me.

 

[Mbruno]

In Spanish nobility, the transfer of titles is a personal choice made by the head of the house or the family itself.

The three remaining ducal titles—Dukedom of Alba, Dukedom of Berwick, and Dukedom of Liria and Jérica—are closely linked to the House of Alba and generally go only to the primary heir, Cayetano.

The reason why Eugenia, the youngest sibling and a woman, was granted a dukedom instead of her older brothers Jacobo or Fernando is also unclear to me.

The law on the distribution of surplus titles among direct descendants, which is still based on King Alfonso XIII's royal decree of 1912 (as amended), actually says that the "principal" title must be reserved for the "immediate successor", which I take to mean the heir apparent. The law itself does not explicitly define, I think, what the "principal" title means.

Art. 13.​

El poseedor de dos ó más Grandezas de España ó Títulos del Reino, podrá distribuirlos entre sus hijos ó descendientes directos con la aprobación de S. M., reservando el principal para el inmediato sucesor. Esta facultad quedará subordinada á las limitaciones y reglas establecidas expresamente en las concesiones respecto al orden de suceder.

 

[Somebody]

In Spanish nobility, the transfer of titles is a personal choice made by the head of the house or the family itself.

The three remaining ducal titles—Dukedom of Alba, Dukedom of Berwick, and Dukedom of Liria and Jérica—are closely linked to the House of Alba and generally go only to the primary heir, Cayetano.

The reason why Eugenia, the youngest sibling and a woman, was granted a dukedom instead of her older brothers Jacobo or Fernando is also unclear to me.

The ducal title that Eugenia got was the one her mother used prior to becoming the Duchess of Alba. Male heirs traditionally use the title of Duke of Huescar. Maybe, that’s why it was passed on to her daughter?

 

[theroyalfly]

The ducal title that Eugenia got was the one her mother used prior to becoming the Duchess of Alba. Male heirs traditionally use the title of Duke of Huescar. Maybe, that’s why it was passed on to her daughter?

You are right. Cayatena's father ceded that to her, while the Duke of Huescar was ceded to Cayetana's first born son Carlos, who also ceded that to his heir Fernando.

 

[meeralakshmi]

A while ago I saw that I had (unintentionally) downloaded a file with an overview of titles and styles in every current European monarchy. I deleted it because I didn’t see any use for it at the time and I’m not sure where to find it again, does it sound familiar to anyone? It seemed like it came from Heraldica but I can’t find it on there.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

A while ago I saw that I had (unintentionally) downloaded a file with an overview of titles and styles in every current European monarchy. I deleted it because I didn’t see any use for it at the time and I’m not sure where to find it again, does it sound familiar to anyone? It seemed like it came from Heraldica but I can’t find it on there.

Could this be it? If not, I hope it is helpful nonetheless.

A Glossary of European Noble, Princely, Royal and Imperial Titles

 

[meeralakshmi]

Unfortunately no because it isn’t by royal family.