Titles and Styles of Harry, his Future Wife and Children

[Mbruno]

The issued the LP for all of the children of the eldest son of the Prince of Wales to be HRHs in late 2012. So this was right after the announcement of Kate's first pregnancy. So at the time, it was not known that the baby was George. If was a girl, she would have been a future Queen but not a HRH Princess from birth without the new LPs.

That is correct, Skippyboo. Thanks for pointing that out !

Personally, I don't see an objective reason though for the HRH style to be restricted to the heir's children only. It would only be a problem if HRH status came with special privileges or access to public funding, but that is no longer necessarily the case.

 

[Rudolph]

If Harry's children aren't expected to be part of the working Firm, I see no reason why he would want HRH for his children.

Beatrice and Eugenie are prime examples what having a fancy title and no formal role can do to someone.

In fact, I think Eugenie would give it up her HRH tomorrow is she could.

 

[JR76]

If Harry's children aren't expected to be part of the working Firm, I see no reason why he would want HRH for his children.



Beatrice and Eugenie are prime examples what having a fancy title and no formal role can do to someone.



In fact, I think Eugenie would give it up her HRH tomorrow is she could.

Unless Andrew stops it I'm sure she'd be glad to do like Patricia of Connaught and renounce her title upon marriage. Lady Eugenie has a nice ring to it.

 

[Countessmeout]

I've been of the opinion for quite some time now that if Harry marries & have children they will be styled like his Wessex cousins. If not, & if the Letters patent of 1917 isn't amended, we'll soon be in the same situation again with an extended clan of royals which apparently is what Charles wants to move away from.

Charles doesn't want an extended working royals. There us a difference.

I don't get why people care. 5 HRH or 500, it costs the same. HRH doesn't come with a salary, house or privilege of any kind. If Harry's kids are not HRH they will still attend trooping and other events, and will still need security costs.

The family is slimming down anyways without eliminating Harry's kids.

Honestly people complain about not seeing royaks enough, how they don't work enough. When Charles is king, even if Harry and William double what they do now, it won't even be a tenth of what royals do now. Charles can't afford to slim down his siblings or eliminate his nieces. Not at least until his grandkids, including Harry's, are old enough.

In reality the continent gets it right. Younger siblings have titles yes, but they are encouraged like in the Netherlands to have careers. They do royal duties from time to time, but still are private. Charles wants to slim down he should embrace that. Encourage people like the yorks to fight what they do, have private jobs and lives, while still attending bigger events and having patronages. Giving court circular recognition to their work would not visit Charles any money. They font get funding for staff anyways.

 

[Rudolph]

A title makes a difference, especially with the kind of press coverage you receive.

Look at Zara and Peter, or even James and Louise, compared to Beatrice and Eugenie.

And the fact is the perception of titles does evolve. Not that long ago we could expect earldoms for husbands of the Yorks. Do it today and people would be in the streets.

I can easily see Harry and his American wife saying "you know what, let's do what the Queen and uncle Edward did with his children. They have the best of both worlds"

 

[Denville]

If Harry's children aren't expected to be part of the working Firm, I see no reason why he would want HRH for his children.

Beatrice and Eugenie are prime examples what having a fancy title and no formal role can do to someone.

In fact, I think Eugenie would give it up her HRH tomorrow is she could.

I see no reason why he would NOT want his children to be styled HRH. of course he would want it. Titles are important to them
I can't see what "harm" its doing to Bea and Eugenie to have the title of Princess and no formal role. they can do occasional royal duties and be seen as part of the RF at times but still have the freedom to have a job.. if they want it.. There's nothing to stop Eugenie just being known as Eugenie Mountbatten Windsor, and going to her office every day, if she wants to.

 

[Rudolph]

Why not just make everyone a royal highness then? The public doesn't care, no harm in having a title.

The Queen and Prince Edward certainly took the view 'HRH' was a burden for minor royals and Harry's children will be minor royals.

I don't think Harry has the same attachment to titles as Prince Andrew

 

[Lumutqueen]

I see no reason why he would NOT want his children to be styled HRH. of course he would want it. Titles are important to them

I can't see what "harm" its doing to Bea and Eugenie to have the title of Princess and no formal role. they can do occasional royal duties and be seen as part of the RF at times but still have the freedom to have a job.. if they want it.. There's nothing to stop Eugenie just being known as Eugenie Mountbatten Windsor, and going to her office every day, if she wants to.

You only have to look at the treatment Beatrice and Eugenia get as opposed to what Zara and Peter received to see why Henry wouldn't want his children to have HRHs. You can tell from the way he's spoken about his life and his very clear abhorrence to the press intrusion he receives, that he wouldn't want that for his children.

You're right there's nothing stopping Eugenie from informally dropping her HRH. But she'll still hold it, she'd still be in the limelight and she still get the intrusion, so why would she? Eugenie does go to her office every day, and frankly we rarely see "everyday" pictures of her anymore. Eugenie lives her life quite ordinarily and for the press that's not news.

 

[Denville]

Why not just make everyone a royal highness then? The public doesn't care, no harm in having a title.

The Queen and Prince Edward certainly took the view 'HRH' was a burden for minor royals and Harry's children will be minor royals.

I don't think Harry has the same attachment to titles as Prince Andrew

I don't believe that was why Ed's children weren't to use their titles.. it was because at the time of his marriage and starting a family they were trying to keep a lower profile. However IMO they are entitled to their HRH's and should use them. Unless they really don't wish to.
I don't see that being HRH has done the York girls any harm. if they are not overly popular its because neiter of them does anyting interesting, and they are the children of 2 fairly unpopular people, Andrew and Sarah..

 

[Lumutqueen]

I don't believe that was why Ed's children weren't to use their titles.. it was because at the time of his marriage and starting a family they were trying to keep a lower profile. However IMO they are entitled to their HRH's and should use them. Unless they really don't wish to.

Depending on which way you look at it Louise and James have HRHs. There was no formal LP/document released to take it away from them, they are male line grandchildren. Edward and Sophie chose to have their children brought up and styled as those of an Earl. You have to look at the childrens ages as well, they're of school age. I imagine we rarely saw much of Beatrice and Eugenie when they were at school. Frankly right now we see more of Mia, Savannah and Isla then we do of Louise and James.

I don't see that being HRH has done the York girls any harm. if they are not overly popular its because neiter of them does anyting interesting, and they are the children of 2 fairly unpopular people, Andrew and Sarah..

Both Beatrice and Eugenie have very much taken on the sins of their parents which is unfortunate because neither of them has ever done anything to justify the consistent barrage of hate they receive from the press or DFail commentators. In regards them doing anything interesting, in 2012 William (putting him at Beatrice's age) was at RAF Valley with Catherine. In 2013, Henry was just returning from Afghanistan and remained in the army. Both boys didn't face the any significant press unless they were "out in the public". Frankly out of all four of them, IMO, Beatrice has done the most interesting things in her life.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

Do I understand it correctly that being deployed in war-torn Afghanistan is less interesting that Eugenie's path of life?

 

[muriel]

Frankly out of all four of them, IMO, Beatrice has done the most interesting things in her life.

Really? What interesting things has Beatrice done with her life? She is 28, and has been unable to hold down any job for over a year. She has done some charitable work, but nothing too unusual. Am I missing something?

 

[Skippyboo]

I wonder if all the people William helped saved as SAR pilot or Harry's Afghanistan soldiers would agree with Beatrice doing the most interesting things in her life? I don't think hanging out on Necker Island with Dave Clark all that interesting.

 

[Mbruno]

I wonder if all the people William helped saved as SAR pilot or Harry's Afghanistan soldiers would agree with Beatrice doing the most interesting things in her life? I don't think hanging out on Necker Island with Dave Clark all that interesting.

That is not the proper forum to discuss Beatrice's life, but how could she have done more in terms of public service when the family keeps denying her any official role ? It is also unfair to compare her to her cousins in terms of military service as she is a woman and, although the military is now open to women, it is still unlikely that a woman would do military service, much less be deployed in a combat zone. Beatrice spent her early adult years concentrating on getting her university degree, which is what was expected of her, and an upgrade over previous generations of British royal women who had little formal education.

 

[muriel]

That is not the proper forum to discuss Beatrice's life, but how could she have done more in terms of public service when the family keeps denying her any official role ? It is also unfair to compare her to her cousins in terms of military service as she is a woman and, although the military is now open to women, it is still unlikely that a woman would do military service, much less be deployed in a combat zone. Beatrice spent her early adult years concentrating on getting her university degree, which is what was expected from her, and an upgrade over previous generations of British royal women who had little formal education.

I dont think people are trying to compare her record of public service with that of William and Catherine. This discussion is about the comment from Lumutqueen that Beatrice has done more interesting things in her life than her cousins.

 

[miss whirley]

Also, by the time Zara was 28, she was a world champion 3-day eventer.

Beatrice is not a failure in life, but she certainly doesn't outshine her cousins. I'm not sure how that could be argued, is it her Young Victoria cameo that is so interesting?

 

[Molly2101]

Depending on which way you look at it Louise and James have HRHs. There was no formal LP/document released to take it away from them, they are male line grandchildren. Edward and Sophie chose to have their children brought up and styled as those of an Earl. You have to look at the childrens ages as well, they're of school age. I imagine we rarely saw much of Beatrice and Eugenie when they were at school. Frankly right now we see more of Mia, Savannah and Isla then we do of Louise and James.

I agree with this - James and Louise are still children and the York sisters were only really seen as children at the Windsor Horse Show and on the balcony at Trooping the Colour. Pretty much the only time we ever see the Wessex children are at these events, unless they have been seen by paparazzi on holiday which is rare. We can only see as they get older how the press will treat them because in 10 years time George and Charlotte will still be children, meaning they wont be going to nightclubs or dining with their friends, whereas Louise and James will be. They will be the only "young royals" at the time, thus I can see the press photographing them more.

I think Harry is much more laid back than his brother and he also knows his children will never be a monarch, therefore losing their HRH style wouldn't be a bad thing. They will still be grandchildren of the monarch and the children of the youngest child of the monarch - the same position the Wessex children are. They have all the perks but none of the responsibilities which I think Harry would prefer for his children.

 

[Lumutqueen]

Do I understand it correctly that being deployed in war-torn Afghanistan is less interesting that Eugenie's path of life?

Really? What interesting things has Beatrice done with her life? She is 28, and has been unable to hold down any job for over a year. She has done some charitable work, but nothing too unusual. Am I missing something?

I wonder if all the people William helped saved as SAR pilot or Harry's Afghanistan soldiers would agree with Beatrice doing the most interesting things in her life? I don't think hanging out on Necker Island with Dave Clark all that interesting.

Whilst my answer will most likely be deleted along with your responding posts eventually anyway, I shall respond for the sake.

Definition of interesting "arousing curiosity or interest; holding or catching the attention." In my personal opinion, for me, neither fighting in Afghanistan or being an EAAA pilot is interesting. Both acts are, for separate reasons, incredibly brave, moving, daring, selfless and very honourable things to do. My comment in regards to Beatrice doing the most interest thing, should in no way detract from what Henry and William have done.

I was referring to Beatrices' triathlon for charity which for me personally is an interest of mine, and I found the journey they took whilst completing the stages incredibly interesting.

I will not respond to any further posts on this topic, and this thread will no doubt shortly be cleaned up.

 

[Jacknch]

Time to move on please and back to the topic of the thread which is the Titles and Styles of Prince Harry and his future family, let's not get bogged down discussing other members of the Royal Family. Thank you.

 

[Spheno]

The dukedoms of Leeds and Buckingham are also available.

 

[Delsia]

The Children of Harry

I know that once Charles becomes King any children born to Harry and his wife would become Prince or Princess under the Letter Patents of 1917, what I like to know is if Harry and his wife had at the time 1 child when Charles became King and others after Charles died would the children born after Charles died automatically become Prince or Princess?

 

[miss whirley]

Yes. Look at the male-line grandchildren of George V some of which were born after he died.

 

[Countessmeout]

I know that once Charles becomes King any children born to Harry and his wife would become Prince or Princess under the Letter Patents of 1917, what I like to know is if Harry and his wife had at the time 1 child when Charles became King and others after Charles died would the children born after Charles died automatically become Prince or Princess?

Yes. Unlike the Netherlands, degree of proximity to the throne isn't effected by death.

The letters say male line descendents within two generations, so children and male line grandchildren. Even if the grandparent dies first. Harry's kids will always be the grandchildren of the king, even if he dies before they are born. The only way they wouldn't would be if Charles died before his mother. Then Harry's kids would never be grandchildren.

Looking at George V, of his male line grandchildren, beyond Elizabeth and Margaret, only the Duke of Kent was born. Alexandra was born the year her grandfather died, Michael and the two Gloucrster boys later.

 

[Iluvbertie]

The 1917 LPs give HRH to the following people:

1. The children of the monarch* (Andrew and Edward)
2. The spouses of the sons of the monarch - (Camilla, Sophie)
3. The male-line grandchildren of the monarch* (William, Harry, Beatrice, Eugenie, Richard, Edward, Michael and Alexandra - Richard, Michael, Alexandra and the late William of Gloucester all were born after the death of George V but still they were born as HRHs)
4. The spouses of male-line grandsons of the monarch (Kate, Birgitte, Katherine, Marie-Christine)
5. The eldest son of the eldest son of the Prince of Wales - George*

*1 - Charles and Anne were HRHs from birth because George VI issued special LPs in 1948 to give that status to the children of Elizabeth. Without those special LPs then Charles and Anne would have been born as Lord Charles Mountbatten, Earl of Merioneth and Lady Anne Mountbatten. They would have been raised to HRH when the Queen ascended the throne in 1952 without those special LPs from 1948

*3 - Louise and James aren't HRHs as the Queen's will was made known that they would be styled as the children of an Earl. There are some people who argue that only an LP can overturn an LP but that actually isn't the case e.g. William was called Duke of Cambridge from his wedding day but the LPs weren't issued for another few weeks - in May not April. The Queen's Will is all that is needed (I wrote to BP on this question and that was the answer - the Queen's Will is all that was needed to say that they aren't Prince or Princess and that is good enough for me)

*5 - In 2012 The Queen issued to LPs to extend that to all the children rather than just the eldest son. That was necessary as they law about making birth order alone rather than gender bias meant a first born girl would be the future monarch. Under the 1917 LPs a first born girl would have been Lady xxxx Mountbatten-Windsor while a later son would have been born HRH but the Lady would have been the future monarch.

With that understanding of the 1917 LPs currently Harry's children will be born as Lord/Lady Mountbatten-Windsor and be immediately promoted to HRHs when Charles becomes King. If a child is born after Charles accession that child automatically be HRH, in much the same was as Andrew and Edward were born as HRHs under the 1917 LPs while Charles and Anne needed the 1948 LPs.

Next - what would happen to Harry's children if Charles predeceases the Queen and no special LPs have already been issued. Then, under the existing LPs, they remains as Lord/Lady. William could then issue new LPs on the basis that they would get HRH on the accession of their grandfather. Whether he would do so would depend on the circumstances at the time.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

I know that once Charles becomes King any children born to Harry and his wife would become Prince or Princess under the Letter Patents of 1917, what I like to know is if Harry and his wife had at the time 1 child when Charles became King and others after Charles died would the children born after Charles died automatically become Prince or Princess?

Yes, they would. The letters patent of 1917 say "any Sovereign", not "the Sovereign".

Now Know Ye that We of our especial grace certain knowledge and mere motion do hereby declare our Royal Will and Pleasure that the children of any Sovereign of these Realms and the children of the sons of any such Sovereign and the eldest living son of the eldest son of the Prince of Wales shall have and at all times hold and enjoy the style title or attribute of Royal Highness with their titular dignity of Prince or Princess prefixed to their respective Christian names or with their other titles of honour

 

[Skippyboo]

Charles still has to become the sovereign for Harry's kids to get HRHs. If William follows the Queen onto the throne. Harry's kids are not the grandchildren of the sovereign because Charles never became King.

 

[Pranter]

Ok so the LP issued for William's children just covered his children...not Harrys..?


LaRae

 

[Skippyboo]

The LPs of 2012 covered the children of the eldest son of the Prince of Wales. So that's William's children but if the same scenario comes up in the future it would be covered like if George has kids if Charles is still King. It's not a one shot LP like the LP that made Charles and Anne HRH which was specific to the children of Princess Elizabeth and Philip

 

[Westfield Bakery]

As the way it looks now, him and his wife (Meghan Markle?) could still be Prince and Princess Henry of Wales.

They could be Duke and Duchess of Sussex, Duke and Duchess of Albany.

However, when Andrew, Duke of York dies, and if he dies while Charles is king, it is possible Charles could award Harry with the Duke of York title, since he is the second son of the British monarch.

However, if William and Kate have a second son, and Harry is still alive, while William is king, their second son could have a different title in form of an duke or an earl.

Very interesting.

 

[Skippyboo]

Harry isn't getting 2 Dukedoms. He is only going to get the one when he marries.