The Future of the Danish Monarchy


If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
But Märtha Louise is still 'princess Märtha Louise' and even styled as 'HH princess Märtha Louise' abroad; so she only did away with her 'HRH' status (which Sverre Magnus never got).

Regarding the Madeleine issue (although we are going hugely off-topic - and her situation is quite different in that she is the monarch's daughter not grandson); in my perception the main inconsistency is not in keeping her title -she was born a royal highness and currently they don't strip people of titles for not marrying 'equals', so no reason for her to give up her title- but in accepting titles for her children while their father refused a title. So, this is a 'Nordic' example where they give out more titles than previously instead of less or asking/suggesting/forcing to renounce.

Still, it's interesting to hear different perspectives! And I agree that not all people make the distinction between HRH and HH but I don't see that as a good enough reason for Nikolai and his siblings to renounce a title (as to me that isn't necessarily tied to being an active member - if they want it to be that way, they should change the rules for the next generation not make it depended on individuals).

We'll see what the future holds but so far I don't see a reason for Nikolai to renounce his titles. If he wants to do controversial things, him being the grandson or nephew of the monarch will make it bad enough, with or without title... The only reason that I can think of why it might be considered is if he is 'making money of his title' (but even that can be done without a title, as Tessy seems to do fine even though she is about to loose hers). As long as he doesn't advertise his title in his job (he could indeed use Monpezat instead), he should be fine - and will have the advantages (and some disadvantages) of being born into the royal family no matter what.
 
You are right, but Nikolai starts out as HH, not HRH. So he's pretty much at the end of the line, princely-speaking.

We shall indeed see. 😄
Perhaps it will work out for all of Joachim's children.
It is as you know difficult to make predictions, especially about the future... ;)

Personally I think inactive DRF members should drop their royal titles and revert to being mere nobles.
It makes things simpler and should they do something controversial it doesn't reflect so hard on the monarchy, because they are not officially a part of the royal family anymore.
And there is a serious risk of "title-inflation" if there are say 25 prince/ss running around. (We must assume that most if not all of M&F's children will marry someone who will get a title of prince/ss, because they are children of the heir.)

It will of course be even more interesting to see what role especially Vincent and Josephine will have.
 
In Norway the brother of the future Queen (Sverre Magnus) is already no HRH anymore. In Spain the sisters of the new King are visibly sidelined. In the Netherlands the nephews and nieces of the King all have no royal title anymore (they are count/countess). Etc. This evolution is visible in all Houses.
There is no evolution at all in the NRF when it comes to this.

The media didn't want Märtha to lose HRH style in 2002, but the King meant it would have been unfair to Raghnild and Astrid if she had retained the title after she married.

It was the same with Sverre. The King and Haakon meant it would have been unfair to Raghnild, Astrid and Märtha if he was to retain the style after he marries. So they decided that Sverre should not go through the same process as the princesses had to do when they lost their styles.

Why would it be necessary for Nikolai to renounce his title? They already made him a HH instead of HRH at birth, so there is already a clear distinction between the core members and the more distant members within the family.
They haven't made him anything. In Denmark the style of HRH is reserved only to the children of the monarch + their spouses (Prince Richard thanked no) and the children of the crown prince, other grandchildren of the monarch enjoy the style of HH. And therefor Nikolai was IMO never going to be a working royal anyway, but as Muhler wrote: ''To the general public who are not that well versed in titles, there is no real distinction between HH and HRH. - Nikolai is Prince ergo he is a full royal. That also applies to segments of the press, especially when they want to''.

Just take a look on the danish historian Lars Hovbakke Sørensen who did not even mention anything about the facts I wrote above when he tried to explaine the reasons for Princess Elisabeth not being a working royal.

But Märtha Louise is still 'princess Märtha Louise' and even styled as 'HH princess Märtha Louise' abroad; so she only did away with her 'HRH' status (which Sverre Magnus never got).
Yes, she is. And as I wrote in one of the norwegian threads, some politicians and commentators wanted her to let go of the princess title in 2007 and 2014 (due to her angels stuff), but the King went out and said no. Why? - Because he meant that the princess title only showed that she was his daughter and that (he said) she will always be.

But she is not a member of the Royal House, and does what she wants.
 
Regarding the Madeleine issue (although we are going hugely off-topic - and her situation is quite different in that she is the monarch's daughter not grandson); in my perception the main inconsistency is not in keeping her title -she was born a royal highness and currently they don't strip people of titles for not marrying 'equals', so no reason for her to give up her title- but in accepting titles for her children while their father refused a title. So, this is a 'Nordic' example where they give out more titles than previously instead of less or asking/suggesting/forcing to renounce.

When it comes to Madeleines children, I would place all of my money on this bet: When Leonore was born, Estelle was the only other royal cousin. There was no "spare", and no one knew if Victoria and Daniel would have any other children (or if Carl Philip would marry and have children).

The king himself has lived in a situation where the line to the throne was very, very short. I think that he didn't want that situation to repeat itself if it could be avoided, and decided to give all of his grandkids a title, regardless of their parents titel/non-title.

Now that V&D have two kids, just like CP &S, there is no shortage of people in the line of succession. It wouldn't surprise me a bit if Madeleine - with her fathers approval - decided to stay in London and take the kids out of the line of succession.

The danish situation is a bit different. Nikolai was born as a potential spare, but there were also other possibilities. If neither of the queens children would have had children of their own, both of her sisters had kids that - as far as I know - would be able to inherit the throne.
 
Resumé of the thread: in all monarchies there is a trend to downsizing, by focusing on the core royal family. The one monarchy does it with firm hand (Spain), the other monarchy does the more gradual way. The fact that the title Greve and Komtesse Monpezat has been created indicates that issue from royals outside the core royal family will go the Rosenborg and Frederiksborg way and be known with their noble title, which is a good development by the way. Even in Belgium, where titles could go in in perpetuity, for all descendants of Albert II (in both the male and female lineage) they have concluded that this was no longer sustainable.

There is one exception to this trend: Sweden. The flood of princes and princesses (all dukes and duchesses as well). Nice that King Carl XVI Gustaf does not want to differentiate his grandchildren in A-royals and B-royals. But it will happen anyway. The focus will be on Princess Estelle, the future Queen. All those HRH Princes and Princesses of Sweden will give Sweden's (social) media their field days. Mark my words.
 
:previous: I couldn't agree more.
 
All those HRH Princes and Princesses of Sweden will give Sweden's (social) media their field days. Mark my words.

Agree 100%!
Those with title but without royal job will sell the magazines as royal celebrities, making it difficult to apply any 'private person' rights as they are all public figures.
 
I totally agree with the previous posts about why all the grandchildren of Carl XVI Gustav have been given titles and HRH status. There have been rumours that Madeleine wanted to give up her status and title at the time of her wedding but that her father made her reconsider.
Given how it was announced that Jonas Björklund would share his future wife's title of Duke at the time of their engagement it's apparent to me that the king feels that the gender neutral succession means that status and titles are for all his descendants. Added to this was as have been previously stated was the possibility of Estelle being an only child.
I do feel that things will have to change before the kids reach adulthood but I'm fairly certain that the O'Neils will stay in London thereby eliminating their children from the line of succession which I think will mean that their titles won't be inherited further down that family line.
Regarding the sons of Carl-Philip I see no possibility for the king changing their status. He's been vocal about maintaining the agnatic Bernadotte line even after accepting the new line of succession. The only change I see is if they're made Prince Bernadotte something that's not as easy as it sounds given that the king has no right to ennoble anyone.
 
This is a little sidestep, but King Carl XVI Gustaf could not do what Queen Margrethe, King Willem-Alexander, King Felipe etc. can do: creating nobles.

That sounds strange with the flood of new Swedish Dukes and Duchesses but these are personal designations rather than real noble and hereditary titles (like Rosenborg or Monpezat). A problem is possibly also that Prince Carl Philip's children are the legitimate procreation of the "real" Bernadottes and maybe the King had ambivalent feelings that Carl Philip's children, unbroken direct male agnatic dynasts of the first Bernadotte King, would not have any title.

It was not in the King's possibility to create them Prince / Princess Bernadotte, which would be a solution. I think that made it more difficult than in Denmark, where Queen Margrethe has more options to differentiate.
 
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Just like Elisabeth not going in the front door so to speak is an indication of her role in the DRF, (Which is inactive.)
HH Princess Elisabeth is taking the back door, because it is where the elevator is. She can´t manage the stairs any longer :flowers:
 

Various media have speculated about that ever since Frederik and Mary's wedding in 2004, despite The Queen pointing out numerous times that she will never abdicate.

It's totally pointless (and not appropriate at all at the moment) to speculate about this again.
 
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To speculate about this now again, just after losing her husband is horrible, I feel.
 

She has said repeatedly that she will not abdicate. The speculation is coming mostly from the Australian and British press because of CP Mary obviously, whom they would like to see as queen consort.
 
Well...

I think we should postpone that interesting discussion until after the funeral.
 
I am sure the last thing what Queen Margrethe II needs now is an abdication. I am also sure that she will work much more for the crown to compensate the death of Prince Henrik.
 
.

In deference to the Royal Family and the sad times the family members are going through at the moment, I think we can all agree that it is not the time for discussions about a possible abdication. Thank you for your understanding!
 
I think the Danes are lucky in that they have an abundance of well loved and well respected senior royals in Queen Margrethe as well as the CP couple.

It's been touching to see the family come together at this sad time and, as well as hopefully providing comfort to each other, I think the country seeing family unity during times like these strengthens the monarchy. Part of the appeal of a hereditary monarch as head of state - and really, IMO, the only aspect of a monarchy that couldn't be duplicated by another form of government - is that the King or Queen comes with a royal FAMILY - children, siblings, all the various spouses, etc. Seeing the family members together in good times and bad is important.
 
I think this one belongs here: https://www.bt.dk/royale/kongehusek...vl-det-her-er-en-enestaaende-chance-for-prins

At his death PH was still patron for quite a number of organizations and what not. Some of them are bound to be taken over by other members of the DRF.
M&F as is already have plenty to do and will no doubt be even more busy in the years to come.
So that very much leaves Joachim and our Marie.

Here royal historians, a branding expert and an author believe their is an opportunity for Joachim to change his public image from someone who is idling a bit and who is considered pretty arrogant.
They believe Joachim could select a number of more outgoing protections where he would be much more in contact with ordinary people in a less formal setting.

- Well, while I think it would be a very good idea if Joachim was seen by the public doing a good deal more I don't think he should try and be folksy. It would fail IMO.
Frederik is a natural when it comes to interacting with people, he is not comfortable when it comes to formal events though.
Joachim is the opposite. He is very good at formal events but he is anything but folksy. So IMO he shouldn't try.
It's akin to telling a joke if it's not natural to you. It usually falls to the ground.
I think that if Joachim really wants to change his public image he should focus much more on heavy and serious subjects. Where he can campaign, promote and use his contacts and influence. Wounded veterans springs to mind. - With such protections he doesn't have to fake being folksy.
 
They could opt for "the Dutch route" and clean up all the cluttered honorary functions and presidencies which went into the hundreds. The new King ended it all. Reason: the King wants to be King for all people.

The King kept less than 10 functions which are "logic" because of his kingship: the Orange Fund (his wedding present), the Netherlands' War Graves Foundation, the Netherlands Nobility Association, the Knights of the Militaire Willems-Orde, Etc.

No longer patron of windmills, blind guide dogs, the Friesian Studbook Horses, Friends of the Opera, countryside hunting, traditional yacht builders, rifles' associations, Friends of medieaeval music, and the whole rambam.

Could be an option for the future King of Denmark as well. Do as his Dutch colleague and ask himself: "Does this still have an added value anno 2028?"

The cleaning-up also prevents possible painful situations. The Honorary Chairman of the School for the Deaf sees his recommended school embroiled by scandals of abuse. The Honorary Chairman of the Anti Animal Cruelty Society himself enjoys hunting at the royal estate. The Honorary Chairman of the Biblical Society is no member of the Qur'an Society? Take a broom and sweep it all out of the palace windows.
 
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:previous: That could very well be an option. And Frederik who is close to King Willem-Alexander might be inspired to do something similar.
I doubt it's a reform that is to be carried out while QMII is still active at least.

However, I do think they should remain patrons for blind guide dogs. - Those poor dogs...:ermm: ;)👅
Forgive me for having a little chuckle on your account. I know you can take it. 😄 That's what is so enjoyable about an international board as this; the funny little language-twists we sometimes have. :lol:
I make them all the times myself.
 
Web-based survey from Voxmeter with 1075 respondents conducted in the days from 22 to 28 February 2018:

The Danish support for the monarchy:

Queen Margrethe reached her 46th anniversary on the throne on January 13th. Should she, in your opinion, abdicate within the coming year, so that Crown Prince Frederik and Crown Princess Mary could instead take over the throne?

* Yes 29.9%

* No 47.4 %

* Don't know 22.7%

Do you prefer Denmark to be a monarchy with a royal head of state as today, or do you wish Denmark to become a Republic with a president?

* A monarchy 76.7%

* A republic of 14.6%

* Don't know 8.7%

Do you agree or disagree with the following statements: The current members of the royal house are good representatives for Denmark?

* Highly agree 48.9%

* Agree 32.8%

* Neither agree nor disagree 11.9%

* Disagree 2.9%

* Highly disagree 2.0%

* Don't know 1.4%

Voxmeter poll 2012:

60% wanted QMII to stay on the throne.

82% supported the monarchy - while 12% wanted republic (information from Voxmeter's website - not from the articles above).

--------------------

Article from ritzau for Jyllands-Posten, BT and other danish media outlets with google translation:
Hver tredje dansker ønsker at dronning Margrethe abdicerer - Jyllands-Posten - translation

Article from Ekstra Bladet with google translation:
Overraskende måling: Så mange ønsker at Margrethe abdicerer - Ekstra Bladet - translation

The Danish historian Lars Hovbakke Sørensen had this to say - quotes from the articles above translated by me:
Lars Hovbakke Sørensen, royal house expert and assistant professor and PhD at Absalon University of Higher Education, does not believe the Danes are dissatisfied with Queen Margrethe.

''47% of the respondents are in accordance with the Danish tradition in the field. It is almost 500 years since we have had a monarch that has retired.

That there is after all a whole third of those who have been asked, which thinks the opposite, one must take it as an expression that they think it is sad for the Queen that she will be sitting (he means on the throne) in her old age, if she wants to withdraw (he means abdicate),'' he says.

Some points from me:

Ekstra Bladet (the Danish version of the Daily Mirror) calls it a surprising poll (they mean the abdicate part).

Is it? No, it isn't. - Why? Because we've had several other polls with an even higher percentage who have wanted QMII to abdicate.

Quote from the articles above:
A vast majority of Danes - 77 percent are for a monarchy.

The figures have been stable at between 77% and 88% for the last 30 years.
That's wrong.

1. Some of the Danish polls show the support at above 80% (even at 88%), but most of these polls don't give people the opportunity to awnser ''don't know/no opinion''.

2. That was also the case in the Netherlands where the TNS NIPO polls had the suport in the 80%s (even some in the 90%s). The Maurice de Hond, Synovate and Ipsos polls (which includes the ''don't know/no opinion'' questions) have the support in the 70%s and 60%s (one poll in 2015 at 50%).

3. The very few Danish polls (including this one) who ask the question as the Brits/Norwegians does (whit the ''don't know/no opinion''), mostly show the support to be in the 70%s (even seen some at 50%s and 60%s).

The support of the Danish monarchy compared to other monarchies - based on the polls which includes ''don't know/no opinion:

I've seen all the polls on the Norwegian monarchy under King Harald V, most of the polls on the British monarchy since 1990, most of the polls on the Danish monarchy under QMII, most of the polls on the Swedish monarchy under King Carll XVI Gustaf and most of the polls on the Dutch monarchy under Beatrix and WA.

From 1998 to 2014:
The Brits on the top with the the Danes on a second place.

2014 - present:
The Norwegians on the top with the Brits and Danes on second place.

That's based on the Norstat poll for NRK, which now have the support for the Norwegian monarchy at above 80% (internal polling done for the palace have also, according to Norwegian media, shown much higher support since 2016).
That is (according to Norwegian commentators) because some of King Harald's personal popularity has rubbed of to the monarchy.

BTW: I went through all the polls on the Norwegian monarchy since 2000 in a post last year in the ''Republic or Monarchy'' thread.

--------------------

I wrote this earlier today, but I didn't had the time to post it before now.
 
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Well, the ''YouGov most admired person'' figures for 2018 is here, so let's go through them:
(I will only list royal persons here, with the exception of the first place.)

The most admired persons in Denmark:

Among the 29 most admired Women:
1. Mary with 11.60%.
3. QMII with 10.50%.
10. QEII with 2.90% (that woman is everywhere, even in countries with its own royal family).

Among the 30 most admired men:
1. Barack Obama with 16.60%.
2. Frederik with 11.80%.

--------------------

Let's go through the previous ''YouGov most admired'' persons in DK figures:

2016:
Among the 30 most admired Women:
1. Mary with 10.4%.
3. QMII with 8.1%.
21. QEII with 1.5%

Among the 30 most admired men:
1. Barack Obama with 17.1%.
2. Frederik with 11.3%.
21. Henrik 1.0%

2015:
Among the 10 most admired Women:
1. Mary with 12.4%.
3. QMII with 8.9%.

Among the 10 most admired men:
1. Barack Obama with 14.2%.
2. Frederik with 11.8%.

See more information of this poll in this thread:
http://www.theroyalforums.com/forum...-monarchy-in-the-uk-32807-18.html#post2093060

--------------------

Yes, this is a pretty serious poll, but I'm 99% sure that Frederik is more admired than what Obama is in DK.
 
It's basically a poll about who is the most highly profiled person people can think of that year.
 
:previous: Yes, that's the case with all such polls - but quite interesting anyway, I think.
And the royals are scoring very well.
 
The Danish royal family increased its popularity
Denmark is unconditionally the country in Europe where for many years there has been the greatest support for the monarchy.
https://jyllands-posten.dk/premium/kultur/ECE11361563/Det-danske-kongehus-har-øget-sin-popularitet/

Unfortunately you can't read the whole text.
I hope some Danish TRF member will post the rest of the text here.

Royal Norway has an interesting explanation above of how this is not necessarily as it appears, as modifications to the options provided in surveys result in differing measurements of support.

http://www.theroyalforums.com/forums/f24/the-future-of-the-danish-monarchy-14778-36.html



Nikolai can very much be compared to Princess Elisabeth I think.
She's never married or had any children, so that "issue" ends with her. And she had a career in the Foreign Ministry, sometimes being deployed abroad. That's an acceptable and safe career for an "inactive" royal. Not controversial and out of sight and out of mind.
And if need be I suppose all Joachim's children can be parked away safely like that. Beforehand younger royals had a career in the military or like Elisabeth became a civil servant or even went into the church or in some cases had a manor somewhere. - Pretty much the traditional career choices for younger siblings of the upper class.
But that does put limitations on their choice of careers.
Nothing that is remotely political. Nothing that brings him into conflict with Danish interests or with segments of the population is acceptable, so that may rule out him being a top executive in a private business. And so on.

The problem is also that the DRF has to neutral in almost every aspect. That also includes inactive members. Otherwise there is a very good chance of that detracting from the monarchy itself. - That sentiment is admittedly sometimes bordering on being hysterical here in DK, but it's there.

I agree with you. The treatment of Prince Nikolai and the decisions he has taken over the year and a half since you posted this comment seem to be indicators of a new approach with the Royal House now accepting not only non-traditional career choices (private businesses included) for the members of the House, but even the usage of their royal titles commercially. It will be interesting to see how this approach, and the controversies that will occur in relation to a freer choice of careers, will reflect on the monarchy.

Well, since Nikolai was not present, I will say that he is not to have an official role with the DRF - or that he is unwilling to take on an official role.

I wonder if he will have a flag-day this year?
If he doesn't that is a further indication of him quietly leaving the DRF.

Has he had flag days after all?


Personally I think inactive DRF members should drop their royal titles and revert to being mere nobles.
It makes things simpler and should they do something controversial it doesn't reflect so hard on the monarchy, because they are not officially a part of the royal family anymore.

He can still legally and technically be Prince to Denmark but choose to use a different name, at the end of the day this late on dropping his title will do little anyway as people who know who he is will still know him.

It doesn't seem like a problem to me, either.

Nikolai (and his siblings) is already distinguished from his cousins by his HH title. If he receives no apanage (either on his own or as a % from the monarch), and his future children bear no royal title, it will not create a 'big' royal family in the future. The royal family will still only be carried on by the crown prince and his heir.

The Danes have already figured it out IMO.

The easier and more logical way IMO is to not have him (or his brothers) pass on his princely title but only his title as count of Monpezat to his children (which probably was what Margrethe intended when she created those titles). And probably make a general rule about the degree of kinship for membership of the DRF (or make an official distinction between the core family and the more distant family members - who are still in line to the throne).

In other countries (for example the Netherlands and Belgium; and a quite extreme example is Liechtenstein with I don't know how many princes without causing any issues it seems) we've seen that it doesn't present a problem that princes have normal careers. I am not saying that there never will never be a controversy, but that would occur with or without royal title just because of their relatively close family relation to the monarch, i.e., they will always be linked to their respective royal families.

If it's indeed the case that the absence of a royal title does little to prevent career-related controversies from occurring, then there is no reason why the royal titles should not be carried on to Prince Joachim's grandchildren, and his great-grandchildren afterwards.

However, I am more inclined towards agreeing with Muhler. The late Princess Elisabeth, and even Count Ingolf and Count Christian, were visible to the public to a much greater extent than the children of former princess Dagmar Castenskiold, in spite of their all being grandchildren of kings.


Resumé of the thread: in all monarchies there is a trend to downsizing, by focusing on the core royal family.

I am not familiar with the ways in which the monarchies of Asia and Africa have downsized. What modifications did they implement?

Regarding the monarchies of Europe, I am not sure to what extent they have genuinely downsized.

In relation to apanages and official roles: It was quite common even generations back for younger sons of European royal families to have military careers or administer estates in lieu of working full time for the monarchy, as mentioned by Muhler above.

In relation to titles: In Belgium, Sweden, and Liechtenstein as well as in Denmark, all members of the family who have a place in the order of succession are now endowed with royal titles. In Luxembourg, Monaco, and Norway, all legitimate descendants in male line enjoy princely titles at the moment.
 
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What's new?Nothing,at least not here in NL where only the Monarch and his Spouse as well as the former Monarch receive an apanage,all others have a job and their own income.Also,the children of the Monarch are Princesses or Princess,their children,if not direct in line for the Throne will have titles like Count or Countess of Orange Nassau,or no title at all if the parents so choose!Only the direct family of the Monarch consists of the Royal Family,all others are members of the Royal House but don't have special privileges otherwise.
We don't have Joachims in our RF



Royal Norway has an interesting explanation above of how this is not necessarily as it appears, as modifications to the options provided in surveys result in differing measurements of support.

http://www.theroyalforums.com/forums/f24/the-future-of-the-danish-monarchy-14778-36.html





I agree with you. The treatment of Prince Nikolai and the decisions he has taken over the year and a half since you posted this comment seem to be indicators of a new approach with the Royal House now accepting not only non-traditional career choices (private businesses included) for the members of the House, but even the usage of their royal titles commercially. It will be interesting to see how this approach, and the controversies that will occur in relation to a freer choice of careers, will reflect on the monarchy.



Has he had flag days after all?










If it's indeed the case that the absence of a royal title does little to prevent career-related controversies from occurring, then there is no reason why the royal titles should not be carried on to Prince Joachim's grandchildren, and his great-grandchildren afterwards.

However, I am more inclined towards agreeing with Muhler. The late Princess Elisabeth, and even Count Ingolf and Count Christian, were visible to the public to a much greater extent than the children of former princess Dagmar Castenskiold, in spite of their all being grandchildren of kings.




I am not familiar with the ways in which the monarchies of Asia and Africa have downsized. What modifications did they implement?

Regarding the monarchies of Europe, I am not sure to what extent they have genuinely downsized.

In relation to apanages and official roles: It was quite common even generations back for younger sons of European royal families to have military careers or administer estates in lieu of working full time for the monarchy, as mentioned by Muhler above.

In relation to titles: In Belgium, Sweden, and Liechtenstein as well as in Denmark, all members of the family who have a place in the order of succession are now endowed with royal titles. In Luxembourg, Monaco, and Norway, all legitimate descendants in male line enjoy princely titles at the moment.
 
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