The Duke and Duchess of Sussex and Family, News and Events 10: August 2024 -


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Some people just like using titles, because they think it makes them look important. For example, Lady Colin Campbell was married to Lord Colin Campbell for 15 months, in the mid-1970s, but still uses the title "Lady Colin".

That is considered proper etiquette. Wives of younger sons of peers retain their titles after divorce unless and until they remarry. See Debrett’s:

Widow and Former Wife of the Younger Son of an Earl

There is no difference in the form of address in widowhood, or in the dissolution of her marriage. Should she remarry, however, she adopts her style form her new husband.​
 
Several papers here have written that Prince William is outraged and wants to remove their titles once he is king. As ever we don't know if there is any truth in this.

Indeed, we don’t know how the Prince is truly feeling. But he is not publicly denouncing the acquaintance(s) of his who has been making strongly-worded (albeit still anonymous) complaints to Tom Sykes, currently royal reporter for the Daily Beast. Mr. Syke’s reports are the source of the stories you read.

This does not necessarily mean the Prince of Wales is sincerely considering stripping the HRH titles when he becomes king. But the Prince does seem to be fine with letting his sister-in-law think he is angered by her breach of the agreement.


The comments from acquaintances after HRH in the gift card:

The former courtier added: “Charles might be happy to put up with this, but William won’t. He loathes and despises Harry and Meghan with every bone in his body, he believes they have betrayed everything the family stands for and the idea that they are using their royal status as a calling card will enrage him.”

A friend of William’s told the Daily Beast: “Charles has completely lost control. It’s apparent that Harry and Meghan have every intention of making his final years a misery, just as he feared they would. Meghan using her HRH exposes how weak and enfeebled he is. She knows he won’t do anything. There is no way King William will stand for this. The titles will simply be removed when he is king. A way will be found.”

A friend of the king told the Daily Beast that while the king was likely to be aware of the controversy, he would not seek to have the issue raised with the couple.

The king’s office declined to comment. William’s office did not respond to a request for comment.​

Their earlier comments after the YRH in the Ukraine vice presidential letter:

“It’s outrageous. Every time you think they can’t make it worse, they make it worse,” the friend of the king said. “The deal with the HRH was a way to stop them cashing in while letting them walk away with pride and dignity and trust, and now Markle is using her HRH on a website which seems to exist to sell jam.”

“They say they want reconciliation,” the source added. “I’m sure the king’s first reaction will be dismay, but he simply doesn’t allow himself to get angry about things like this anymore.”

A friend of Prince William’s said: “It’s actually quite a clever way of testing the water, because there is deniability there, she can say, ‘Well, I just wanted to publish this nice letter to raise awareness for Ukraine, and oops! they got my name wrong—but oh, actually, now I think of it, I never gave the title up anyway, and maybe I will start using it again.‘"

“It’s a step in the wrong direction, basically, away from the agreement. You’d have to be an idiot to believe that she didn’t know exactly what she was doing when she posted that message, unedited, to her stories.”

An expert in heraldry who knows the family told The Daily Beast: “There were plenty of people at the time who said it was a mistake to make not using the title a mere gentleman’s agreement rather than just removing it. This post may not matter in and of itself, but it raises a bigger question: What are they going to do if she simply starts using her HRH again? She probably can’t be stopped as things stand right now. The bottom line is, she is, officially, an HRH. It was never removed.”​
 
As mentioned many times before here, removing Harry's peerages would require an act of Parliament (William cannot do it alone), but I guess he could remove the HRH on his own if he wanted to.

This question is unrelated to the Sussexes, but I've wondered if the current legal consensus that Parliament's approval is needed to remove a peerage (but not for removing HRH titles, which monarchs have already removed without involving Parliament) will change after the House of Lords (Hereditary Peers) Bill becomes law.

I posted my question in the thread linked below, and would be interested if anyone has any thoughts.

 
Indeed, we don’t know how the Prince is truly feeling. But he is not publicly denouncing the acquaintance(s) of his who has been making strongly-worded (albeit still anonymous) complaints to Tom Sykes, currently royal reporter for the Daily Beast. Mr. Syke’s reports are the source of the stories you read.

This does not necessarily mean the Prince of Wales is sincerely considering stripping the HRH titles when he becomes king. But the Prince does seem to be fine with letting his sister-in-law think he is angered by her breach of the agreement.


The comments from acquaintances after HRH in the gift card:

The former courtier added: “Charles might be happy to put up with this, but William won’t. He loathes and despises Harry and Meghan with every bone in his body, he believes they have betrayed everything the family stands for and the idea that they are using their royal status as a calling card will enrage him.”​
A friend of William’s told the Daily Beast: “Charles has completely lost control. It’s apparent that Harry and Meghan have every intention of making his final years a misery, just as he feared they would. Meghan using her HRH exposes how weak and enfeebled he is. She knows he won’t do anything. There is no way King William will stand for this. The titles will simply be removed when he is king. A way will be found.”​
A friend of the king told the Daily Beast that while the king was likely to be aware of the controversy, he would not seek to have the issue raised with the couple.​
The king’s office declined to comment. William’s office did not respond to a request for comment.​

Their earlier comments after the YRH in the Ukraine vice presidential letter:

“It’s outrageous. Every time you think they can’t make it worse, they make it worse,” the friend of the king said. “The deal with the HRH was a way to stop them cashing in while letting them walk away with pride and dignity and trust, and now Markle is using her HRH on a website which seems to exist to sell jam.”​
“They say they want reconciliation,” the source added. “I’m sure the king’s first reaction will be dismay, but he simply doesn’t allow himself to get angry about things like this anymore.”​
A friend of Prince William’s said: “It’s actually quite a clever way of testing the water, because there is deniability there, she can say, ‘Well, I just wanted to publish this nice letter to raise awareness for Ukraine, and oops! they got my name wrong—but oh, actually, now I think of it, I never gave the title up anyway, and maybe I will start using it again.‘"​
“It’s a step in the wrong direction, basically, away from the agreement. You’d have to be an idiot to believe that she didn’t know exactly what she was doing when she posted that message, unedited, to her stories.”​
An expert in heraldry who knows the family told The Daily Beast: “There were plenty of people at the time who said it was a mistake to make not using the title a mere gentleman’s agreement rather than just removing it. This post may not matter in and of itself, but it raises a bigger question: What are they going to do if she simply starts using her HRH again? She probably can’t be stopped as things stand right now. The bottom line is, she is, officially, an HRH. It was never removed.”​
The Ukrainian protocol officers were actually put on a difficult spot. Harry and Meghan are still officially HRHs and it is unclear whether diplomatic correspondence should address them by their official styles or not. The governments of other countries are not necessarily bound to take note of the unofficial gentlemen's agreeement that the Sussexes made with the Royal House, unless that is communicated to them directly by the British government for example.

Having said that, whereas Meghan Sussex can blame the Ukranians for the style used in the letter, signing a gift card to a friend in the USA with "HRH The Duchess of Sussex" appears to be, on the other hand, a clear breach of the agreement. There is no plausible justification to do it either. British HRHs normally sign both personal and official correspondence with their forename only.
 
She is pushing the boundaries, I actually think she wants the titles removed so that they can play victim again.
Then she can have another Oprah interview, Harry can write Spare 3, and The New York Times can feature her on the cover as the “Royal Victim.”

they have stationery printed with their monogram or residence at the top not compliment cards with their full titles listed

Everything feels so calculated. That compliment card wasn’t some top-secret JFK file sealed for decades. Of course it was going to be seen eventually, whether by accident or "accidentally on purpose."

The royal family won’t respond—like Queen Mary said in The Crown, “to do nothing is the hardest job.” I wouldn’t be surprised if we start seeing videos of people calling her HRH or curtsying to her at “private” events, or headlines that conveniently “mistake” her for a princess.
 
Given every negative and nasty thing she has said and intimated over the years about members of the royal family, and the serious accusations she has stated publicly about the Royal institution as an entity, using the royal title should be anathema to her if she had any sense of self-honour and conviction in her opinions or knowledge. And yet, she continues to trade on her royal connection both socially and economically. "Oh, but she's entitled to use it" her supporters will say. Sure. However anyone who had any integrity would most certainly not use their married title, and furthermore, they would do everything in their power to forge and promote an image of self-made success. Sending a gift using her married title on the card, whether she's entitled to use it or not and whether it is a personal and not a commercial gesture, just perpetuates her public image of a woman eager to remind people of her status, and translates as smug and entitled. This is precisely why she is so disliked and struggles to gain much respect from the wider community. A very big misstep in my opinion.
Brilliantly stated! I’ll go further than a misstep - it’s hypocrisy, plain and simple.
 
I've watched clips of this podcast she did - I mean it is cringy at times and baffling.

The story about the sending Archie and Lilli en email almost every night and that she will give the account to them when they're 18 - I think someone commented there will be over 4000 emails by the time that comes. It is ridiculous

Then stating about how busy she is and how much she understands hard work whilst listing off the "work" she does - I struggle to understand what this pair actually do

She talks about her morning routine and how hectic that is with the drop off to 2 different schools like this is the first women to ever do this in the history of mankind. BUT then she declares the have had a nanny for 5 years and how that helps. Please Meghan you have no clue what are hard work or balancing work and parenthood is truly like for the average person
 
I will amend my statement to say that as long as Meghan-or Harry-uses HRH privately the Palace should ignore it, although I do think it is a violation of the agreement, not to mention a bit pretentious. But if they use HRH to promote commercial endeavours, then the titles should be taken away.

It looks like there was a jar of jam in that gift basket. Was that one of the prototypes for Meghan's business? If so was that crossing the line to business promotion, especially as it was only released a year later once Meghan has launched As Ever? I think it's walking the line, but that would be for the Sovereign to decide. I wouldn't call Charles weak or enfeebled, but I do think he might be a little more inclined to set the line further back than William would be.
 
The couple agreed not to use their HRHs at all, once they ceased being working members of the Royal Family. The agreement didn't distinguish between business and private use.

Statement from Buckingham Palace​
[...]​
The Sussexes will not use their HRH titles as they are no longer working members of the Royal Family.​


The Duke and Duchess of Sussex will no longer actively use their HRH titles as they will no longer be working members of the family as of Spring 2020.​

This last piece is from “Sussex royal,” isn’t it? Sounds like their words, not Buckingham Palace.
 
I've watched clips of this podcast she did - I mean it is cringy at times and baffling.

The story about the sending Archie and Lilli en email almost every night and that she will give the account to them when they're 18 - I think someone commented there will be over 4000 emails by the time that comes. It is ridiculous

Then stating about how busy she is and how much she understands hard work whilst listing off the "work" she does - I struggle to understand what this pair actually do

She talks about her morning routine and how hectic that is with the drop off to 2 different schools like this is the first women to ever do this in the history of mankind. BUT then she declares the have had a nanny for 5 years and how that helps. Please Meghan you have no clue what are hard work or balancing work and parenthood is truly like for the average person
Exactly, why doesn't she ever mention Harry when she talks about raising their kids? It seems like those kids are being raised by nannies while she writes them emails, but where is Harry? She speaks like she is a single mother.
 
But it seems like she doesn't think so because what stop her from doing it now? Her husband is The Prince Henry, he doesn't need to lose his Duke title to be one, in fact world media (including US) still calling him Prince Harry. So if, like you said, "Princess Henry" or even "Princess Meghan" would haved played better for American, why doesn't she do it? I mean, US media has been calling Catherine "Princess Kate" from the beginning of her marriage, so Meghan could just call her contact in, say, People Mag to start printing article calling her "Princess Meghan", no?

It does raise the question of why the Duchess of Sussex kept to her agreement not to use her HRH for five years after leaving the UK, and only started to breach the agreement now.

This last piece is from “Sussex royal,” isn’t it? Sounds like their words, not Buckingham Palace.

Yes, I quoted the couple’s old official website to demonstrate that the agreement was announced both by Buckingham Palace and by the Sussexes themselves.
 
Harry did serve in a war zone in Afghanistan and served two tours of duty. I for one do consider that brave.

If the Sussex titles had been stripped, as has been discussed here may times before, then Harry would have gone by the title bestowed on him at birth, Prince Harry, and his wife would have been, by custom, Princess Harry, or Henry. That would have played very well in the US where, among the general population, Dukes and Duchess titles aren’t that well understood.
It doesn’t matter what they call themselves, people have to support your project if you want to earn substantial income.?
 
Exactly, why doesn't she ever mention Harry when she talks about raising their kids? It seems like those kids are being raised by nannies while she writes them emails, but where is Harry? She speaks like she is a single mother.
Not sure she does much herself. The list of work she rhymed off was just hilarious. No way does she do that stuff and it was making out writing her social media instagram captions was a full time job and very hard work.

They are privileged are the royals are lets not pretend they aren't. Most of them have the help of nannies (including the Wales') and I get that. They can afford it and working royals do have behind the scenes stuff that no one knows about. But the Sussex family are not working royals, they do not carry out engagements and are barely seen month to month.
 
We have been hearing that Prince William wants to remove their titles since the Sussexes left the UK.

Honestly I am pretty sure that William has more important issues to care about. I tend to dismiss those reports then as part of the ongoing press narrative of a feud between William/ Catherine and Harry/ Meghan.

Besides nobody knows when William will be King. Circumstances change over time and I suppose we cannot predict what William will or will not do when his time comes. As mentioned many times before here, removing Harry's peerages would require an act of Parliament (William cannot do it alone), but I guess he could remove the HRH on his own if he wanted to.
The only way William will strip Meghan and Harry of their titles is if he makes a more sweeping change to the way royal titles are designated, for example by restricting the use of HRH to working royals only. He can’t act like he’s pointing the finger directly at H&M, that would make him look petty.
 
The only way William will strip Meghan and Harry of their titles is if he makes a more sweeping change to the way royal titles are designated, for example by restricting the use of HRH to working royals only. He can’t act like he’s pointing the finger directly at H&M, that would make him look petty.
I do feel there will be an overhaul in the coming years - when the Kents, Gloucesters etc are no longer around. That may the time to cut the titles and HRH to children of the monarch and the family of the eldest grandchild of the monarch. I see that being the best case to allow Charlotte and Louis to represent the family but no titles for their children etc

The way the Sussex family have used their connections for commercial use is ridiculous. But the time to fix this issue is after unfortunately Charles and older royals have passed and it is slimed down.
It is next level that they wanted their children to be titled as well once Charles became King - why??? They live in America, where there is no need for titles and they will never carry out duties. In fact I don't even think the children will visit the UK ever.
 
I've watched clips of this podcast she did - I mean it is cringy at times and baffling.

The story about the sending Archie and Lilli en email almost every night and that she will give the account to them when they're 18 - I think someone commented there will be over 4000 emails by the time that comes. It is ridiculous

Then stating about how busy she is and how much she understands hard work whilst listing off the "work" she does - I struggle to understand what this pair actually do

She talks about her morning routine and how hectic that is with the drop off to 2 different schools like this is the first women to ever do this in the history of mankind. BUT then she declares the have had a nanny for 5 years and how that helps. Please Meghan you have no clue what are hard work or balancing work and parenthood is truly like for the average person
And Harry is nowhere to be found in their morning routine.
 
HRH is a style. "The Duke and Duchess of Sussex" are titles. The titles (probably) can't be removed without Parliament - it's a bit confused, but Parliament was involved in removing titles from German relatives during the First World War, so would probably need to be involved again. The style of HRH could be removed by the monarch. I don't think that Charles would do that. I think William would probably like to, but who knows whether he will or not?
 
'I love doing lunch boxes, it makes me very happy and writing a little note in their lunch boxes... If I don't have meetings in the morning then I try to do school drop off.
Writing a note to a 3-year-old who can barely read, sure, why not! I’m sure Archie, at 6, will figure it out

'And then on other days then I'll wake up and get them all set and then our amazing nanny who's been with us for five years, she'll take them to school for us and then, yeah, we always try to...'
Most parents don’t get a choice and have to drop their kids off at school every day, meetings or not. How nice to have a helpful nanny .

I couldn’t finish reading the whole article.
 
HRH is a style. "The Duke and Duchess of Sussex" are titles.

It is perfectly correct to refer to HRH as a title. :flowers: Referring to it as a style is fine as well.

The famous 1917 letters patent referred to HRH as both a title and a style:

Now Know Ye that We of our especial grace certain knowledge and mere motion do hereby declare our Royal Will and Pleasure that the children of any Sovereign of these Realms and the children of the sons of any such Sovereign and the eldest living son of the eldest son of the Prince of Wales shall have and at all times hold and enjoy the style title or attribute of Royal Highness with their titular dignity of Prince or Princess prefixed to their respective Christian names or with their other titles of honour



The 2020 agreement with the Sussexes referred to it as a title:

The Sussexes will not use their HRH titles as they are no longer working members of the Royal Family.



Peerages are (as you said) considered to be protected by Parliament. For centuries, peers were powerful magnates in their own right, exercising legislative authority as the House of Lords, and they were able to establish strict limits on the monarch's authority over them (e.g. the Magna Carta and the Bill of Rights).

But HRH and Prince(ss) - whether one wants to label them titles, styles, titular dignities or something else - are used only by the royal family. And the junior members of the royal family have never been able to reduce the monarch's authority over them in the same way.

The removal of titles from the German relatives during/after World War I involved removing their peerages. That is why Parliament was involved.
 
The point is that they agreed with The Late Queen that they would not use them. He has shown a lack of integrity and dignity by ignoring the agreement, whether it was in writing or not she loved him and accepted that he would honour her wishes.
 
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