The British Nobility thread 2: Sep 2022 -


If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
The Duke and Duchess of Westminster have welcomed their first child, a girl named Cosima Florence Grosvenor. Cosima was born today in London. A spokesman says the Duke and Duchess are “thrilled” and “now look forward to spending this special time together as a family.”


Really happy for them. What a special time.


Hello! magazine asked the Duke and Duchess of Westminster about the current male-only succession laws to the dukedom, which prevent their daughter from inheriting her father’s title. Their response:

‘A source close to the couple says they are focusing on being first-time parents. "The issue of titles and primogeniture is a matter for government and parliament, and isn't something the Duke and Duchess would comment on, certainly not at this stage. They're just looking forward to spending time with their daughter as a family."’


Not sure what they mean by the statement, which goes beyond simply saying “no comment”. The Duke of Westminster is neither a member of the Royal Family (who are expected to be politically neutral) nor a political party member of the House of Lords (who are expected to be loyal to their parties). Plenty of hereditary peers have voiced their personal opinions – on both sides – of the male-only succession issue. So I am not sure what inhibits the Westminsters from commenting on legal and political issues, as they imply, or what about it is specific to “this stage”.
 
So I am not sure what inhibits the Westminsters from commenting on legal and political issues, as they imply, or what about it is specific to “this stage”.​
They've just welcomed their first child. To get drawn into a public discussion where anything they say could be interpreted as favouring one child over the other might not be what they want to focus on.
 
Reform UK, traditionally a minor party, is currently the highest-polling political party in the UK at 28%. Nevertheless, it has no peers in the House of Lords.

Reform UK’s party leader, Nigel Farage, wrote a letter to the prime minister, Sir Keir Starmer of the Labour Party, to argue that Reform UK should be represented in the House of Lords, given its election results and popular vote share, and given that other minor opposition parties are already represented in the Lords.

From Times policy editor Oliver Wright:

“[…] Reform ha[s ] four MPs and control[s ] ten councils, but no representation in the second chamber [the House of Lords].

[Nigel Farage] pointed out that the Green Party, which also has four MPs, has two working peers while the Democratic Unionist Party, which has only five MPs, has six members in the upper chamber.

Political appointments to the House of Lords are entirely within the gift of the prime minister, who is under no constitutional obligation to elevate politicians from opposing parties.

Political convention has it that Downing Street asks opposition leaders to nominate candidates for peerages at the same time as the prime minister elevates his own supporters.

In December [Labour party Prime Minister Sir Keir] Starmer [...] allowed the Conservatives to appoint six new peers […] while the Liberal Democrats were allowed to appoint two.

Despite winning five seats at the election and 14 per cent of the popular vote, Reform were not asked by No 10 to nominate anyone.

Farage said in his letter to Starmer […] “My party received over 4.1 million votes at the general election in July 2024 [and] have since won a large number of seats in local government, led in the national opinion polls for many months and won the only by-election of this parliament,” he wrote.

“The Greens, DUP, Plaid Cymru and UUP [Ulster Unionist Party] have 13 peers between them, but Reform UK has none. The time has come to address the democratic disparity that exists in the upper house.”



The prime minister responded to Mr. Farage’s request through his defense secretary John Healey:

“John Healey said that Farage wanted to fill the upper chamber with his “cronies” and that his party had been “conspicuously absent” over the war in Ukraine.
[...]
Healey told LBC “[this was] the same Nigel Farage that called for the abolition of the House of Lords”, adding: “I’m not sure that parliament’s going to benefit from more Putin apologists like Nigel Farage, to be honest.”

Farage has previously called for the upper chamber to be abolished or reformed, arguing that it is too large and needs to be made more democratic.”



What on earth do Ukraine and Putin have to do with the very reasonable arguments that there is an ongoing tradition of allowing opposition parties to nominate peers, and that parties with an equally small MP share and smaller vote share are already represented in the Lords?!

The Government’s response seems to be nothing more than an argument ad hominem.

Regarding their other arguments:

Presumably, the Labour Party does not believe its other political opponents, such as the Conservative Party, “benefit” Parliament either – but they nevertheless allowed those parties to nominate peers.

As for Mr. Farage calling for the House of Lords to be abolished yet wanting representation in that house: The Labour Party spearheaded the campaign to remove hereditary peers from the House of Lords, yet it nominated Labour hereditary peers to run for election to the hereditary peers’ Lords seats for as long as the system was in place.
 
As expected, on September 4, the House of Commons rejected the House of Lords’ amendments to the House of Lords (Hereditary Peers) Bill.



One thing is deeply confusing.

Why did the Government rail against Lords Amendment 3, which would have confirmed that the monarch can create life peerages without granting the new peer a seat in the House of Lords? (King Charles III already did so in 2023, when he granted his brother Edward a non-hereditary dukedom without granting Edward a seat in Parliament.)

Given that Britons across the political spectrum agree the rising number of peers in the House of Lords is problematic, shouldn’t the Government be happy to confirm that a peerage does not necessarily need to come with a House of Lords seat?


Nevertheless, the Government spokesman mocked the proposal. His explanation for opposing it raises even more question marks:

“As has been said, being appointed as a peer is an honour, but it also brings the responsibility to contribute to the work of the second Chamber. The Government have a manifesto commitment to introduce a participation requirement to ensure that all peers contribute to the work of the other place—an approach that has received widespread support from peers. I certainly do not think that creating another layer to that system to provide for the statutory creation of non-sitting peers is in keeping with the mood of either House. I therefore urge the House to reject Lords amendment 3.”​


Edit: Moved my comments about the implications of the Government's statement for royal peerages to another thread, in case it is considered off-topic here.

 
The Marchioness of Bath attended the launch of 'The Butler Did It' at Raffles Hotels & Resorts in London on September 17:


** Pic 1 ** Pic 2 **
 
The Marchioness of Bath attended the Burberry Summer 2026 in London today, September 22:


** Pic **
 
I love reading the blog "Peerage News". Is there a way to learn who the people are that are reported on? The are small biographies given, but I am interested in learning about the history of these lesser known (at least by me) landed gentry, baronets, etc, that I see in that blog.
 
I love reading the blog "Peerage News". Is there a way to learn who the people are that are reported on? The are small biographies given, but I am interested in learning about the history of these lesser known (at least by me) landed gentry, baronets, etc, that I see in that blog.
If you're looking for online sources then Wikipedia often have at least basic facts about the families. If you're lucky there are also links to more primary sources.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Hello everyone, I'm new here and I'm doing research on Peerage in the UK. I'm wondering if anyone here is familiar with current day Lords and Ladies in and around Hertfordshire or Manchester? Who would be the most well known in the area? Thanks!
Lord Goddard of Stockport
Lord Lee of Trafford
 
The Marchioness of Bath, attended the EE72 Milan Launch at Portrait Milano Corso Venezia in Milan, Italy yesterday, September 26:


** Pic 1 ** Pic 2 **
 
If you're looking for online sources then Wikipedia often have at least basic facts about the families. If you're lucky there are also links to more primary sources.
Thank you.
 
The Marchioness of Bath attended the Frieze Art Fair 2025 VIP preview today, October 15:


** Pic **
 
As @Mbruno has elucidated, King Charles III’s approach to removing Prince Andrew’s peerages created some very interesting new developments in peerage law and perhaps even the constitutional law of the monarchy.

I will quote his posts here for explanation:

Did Andrew voluntarily ask to have his name removed from the Roll of the Peerage? I am asking because, right now, what the papers are saying is that the King ordered the Justice Secretary (a.k.a. the Lord Chancellor) to sign a warrant removing Andrew from the roll. If so, the King probably acted unconstitutionally by assigning to the executive branch a power that was not given thereto by the sovereign Parliament of the United Kingdom. Moreover, if the King issued this order in response to finding Andrew guilty of any offence, he also usurped the prerogative of the judicial branch, in a further violation of the constitution. That would put King Charles III in a position where he acted as an "absolute monarch" in a way unseen since the days of James II.

Probably because the Royal Warrant of 2004 is very clear: a peer must apply to the Secretary of State (in this case, the Justice Secretary in practice) to have his name removed from the roll,. There is no power conferred on the Secretary of State to remove anyone unilaterally from the roll, or on an order by the King.

That is why what happened in Andrew's case needs to be clarified.

PS: As the preamble to the warrant explains, before 1999, the clerk of the Parliament would maintain a roll of the Lords Spiritual and Temporal. That was ended when the House of Lords Act 1999 removed all but 92 remaining hereditary peers from the House of Lords, prompting the government to set up a separate Roll of the Peerage maintained by the Justice Secretary (a.k.a. the Lord Chancellor). The warrant of 2004 is countersigned by the Lord Chancellor at the time, Lord Falconer, which indicates to me that it was a legal instrument issued under ministerial advice and the government, rather than the late QEII, is responsible for it.

My opinion is that, in the British constitution, the executive branch is not sovereign, which is why all executive acts are subject to judicial review. The Justice Secretary does not have any powers other than those that are assigned to him by law (whether it is primary or delegated legislation).

As far as I see it, there is no legal instrument in place conferring power on the Justice Secretary to remove someone from the Roll of the Peerage other than on the request of the affected peer himself. Could a royal warrant ordering the Justice Secretary to remove someone from the roll create such power in law? I don't know, but it would involve defining what the limits of the royal prerogative are vis a vis the constitutional privileges that peers have maintained for centuries. The purpose of the roll was not, as I see it, to confer on the King a power to suspend the privileges of recognized peers, but rather to keep an official record of successions and new creations, and proofs thereof.

I would love for Andrew "to do a Harry" and challenge the Justice Secretary in the High Court as I think this is a major constitutional issue. Obviously, he will not do it though, meaning that all powers are now susceptible to a discretionary decision of the King to "censure" them (to use the Palace's words in Andrew's case).

That is precisely why peerages can be removed by an act of Parliament, because Parliament is sovereign and has the final say. However, Andrew's right to use his peerage is being "removed" in this case by an executive order, rather than by an act of Parliament, which is why it is controversial.

Relevant links:



Between:

  • the King’s and Government’s unprecedented usage of the Roll of the Peerage for an executive action far beyond its original administrative purpose,

  • the Government’s move to severe all connections between the hereditary peerage and the House of Lords (which was once composed entirely of hereditary peers and churchmen) via the House of Lords (Hereditary Peers) Bill, and

  • that mess of nonsense with the King creating a non-parliamentary life peerage in 2023 and the next Government declaring such peerages illegal in principle in 2025 but without questioning the validity of the King’s creation...

these are interesting times indeed for peerage law.

And in this context, how seriously can we take heretofore universally accepted maxims such as “only an Act of Parliament can remove peerages” in today’s radically transformed legal milieu?



King Charles III’s recent action (which had the express support of the Government) also creates a new inconsistency in the bipartisan policies of peerage (non-)revocation. I will quote my own posts in explanation:

For the record, there is a bipartisan, longstanding policy not to revoke peerages from life or hereditary peers on behavioral grounds. In 2022, the then (Conservative) government refused to revoke the (Labour) life peer Lord Ahmed’s peerage after he was convicted of sexually assaulting two young children and lost his appeal.


King Charles III’s decision introduces a deep inconsistency into the British titles system.

Lord Ahmed, for example, has been convicted in British courts of sexually assaulting two children. He retains his peerage to this day. (He has been expelled from the House of Lords, but he remains a baron.)


Even in the worst-case scenario and interpretation of the Duke of York’s actions, he has not been convicted in court of sexually assaulting two children. So why is it that Andrew Mountbatten-Windsor must lose all his titles as “censure” but Nazir Ahmed can keep his?
 
Last edited:
As far as I see it, there is no legal instrument in place conferring power on the Justice Secretary to remove someone from the Roll of the Peerage other than on the request of the affected peer himself. Could a royal warrant ordering the Justice Secretary to remove someone from the roll create such power in law? I don't know, but it would involve defining what the limits of the royal prerogative are vis a vis the constitutional privileges that peers have maintained for centuries. The purpose of the roll was not, as I see it, to confer on the King a power to suspend the privileges of recognized peers, but rather to keep an official record of successions and new creations, and proofs thereof.

I would love for Andrew "to do a Harry" and challenge the Justice Secretary in the High Court as I think this is a major constitutional issue. Obviously, he will not do it though, meaning that all powers are now susceptible to a discretionary decision of the King to "censure" them (to use the Palace's words in Andrew's case).

Even besides its recent novel use as a loophole, I wonder if even the original intended use of the Royal Warrant in 2004 may be constitutionally problematic.

Conditioning legal recognition of “peer” status on inclusion in the Roll makes sense. It avoids disputes over who should or should not be treated as a peer for legal purposes.

However, making it voluntary for peers to apply for inclusion in the Roll, and letting peers request removal from the Roll, means that heirs of noble families can effectively choose whether to be legally peers or legally commoners.

I suppose that was politically palatable because being a peer is perceived as a privilege, and letting people forgo or renounce their privileges is fine with most.

But suppose a future Government passed, say, a special tax on peers. The current setup means that peers could opt out of paying the tax by asking to be removed from the Roll, or not applying to be included on it in the first place.

 
For now, the government is standing by the principle that only Parliament may remove a peerage.


Question from Yasmin Qureshi, Labour MP:

“To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office, if he will make an assessment of the potential merits of bringing forward legislative proposals to help reduce the (a) number of steps required and (b) time taken to remove (i) honours and (ii) titles.”​

Answer from Nick Thomas-Symonds, Cabinet Office Minister for the Constitution, on 4 November 2025:

“Peerages, styles, titles and honours are granted by the Sovereign.

The Sovereign may change the entitlement to the titles and styles such as “Prince” and “Royal Highness” under the Royal Prerogative. An Act of Parliament is required to remove a peerage once conferred.

Honours can only be revoked by the Sovereign, typically following a recommendation by the Forfeiture Committee to the Prime Minister.”​

 
Back
Top Bottom