Serbia: The House of Obrenovic

[naky]

The House of Obrenović (Serbian: Обреновићи, Obrenovići, often spelled in English as Obrenovich or Obrenovitch) was a noble Serbian family that ruled Serbia from 1815 to 1842, and again from 1858 to 1903. They came to power through the leadership of their progenitor Miloš Obrenović in the Second Serbian uprising against the Ottoman Empire, which led to the formation of the Principality of Serbia. The regents tended to rule autocratically, their popularity waxing and waning over their decades in power.

The house of Obrenović, except Miloš and son Mihailo Obrenović, descends from the Serbian medieval noble house of Orlović, through the stepfather of Knjaz Miloš and of King Milan's grandfather Jevrem, as he was a member of the cadet branch of house Martinović - Orlović.

The family's rule came to an end when an underground movement Black hand throughout the military, killed the last king Aleksandar Obrenović, proximally because of his unpopular choice of a bride. After the end of their rule, a constitutional monarchy headed by the Karađorđević family took its place.

Unlike other Balkan states such as Greece, Bulgaria or Romania, Serbia did not import a member of an existing European royal family to take its throne; the Obrenović Dynasty, like its Karađorđević rival, was a "home-grown" Serbian family.

Monarchs

Miloš Obrenović I ruled from 1815 to 1839, when he abdicated, and again from 1858 until his death in 1860.

Milan Obrenović II had a brief reign between June 25, 1839 and July 8, 1839, when he died.

Mihailo Obrenović III ruled from 1839 to 1842, when he was deposed and the Obrenović family lost control of Serbia, and again ruled from 1860 to 1868, when he was assassinated.

Milan Obrenović IV succeeded Mihailo under a regency in 1868, and reigned as King Milan I from 1882 to 1889.

King Aleksandar I reigned from 1889 until he was killed 1903.

 

[RJ TAYLER]

A fine piece of research there. I am however left with a question. Is there a current claimant to the house?

 

[Marc23]

Yes,there are descendants of Prince Milosh's half-brother Jakov,but their family name is Jakovljevic...they are the heirs to Obrenovic fortune written in a testament of the last family member Queen Natalia,but they were not claimants to the throne of Serbia...

 

[Karposh]

Yes,there are descendants of Prince Milosh's half-brother Jakov,but their family name is Jakovljevic...they are the heirs to Obrenovic fortune written in a testament of the last family member Queen Natalia,but they were not claimants to the throne of Serbia...

In Serbian Wikipedia under Obrenovići, you can see the family tree of the house, including some, but not all members of the Jakovljevic lineage.

The tree also includes George Obrenovic, an illegtimate son og King Milan, and his descendants.

 

[Marc23]

Well,they are not members of the House of Obrenovic,but just related to them and mostly not included in genealogy tables...Jakov is Milosh's half-brother from his mothers side,so his paternal family and the one of Prince Milosh are not the same...the House of Obrenovic as a ruling family included Prince Milosh,his descendants,also his brother Jevrem,whose descendants were later Kings of Serbia ...

Jakovljevic family members are still alive,recognized as Heirs of Obrenovic fortune left to them as nearest cousins by the last Obrenovic family member to die,Queen Natalia...they fight at various courts for their rights as the heirs to the Obrenovic properties who were nationalized,but not as heirs to the Obrenovic claims of Crown...

 

[CyrilVladisla]

In 1897, King Alexander I brought his father, Milan, back to Serbia.
In 1898, Alexander appointed Milan commander-in-chief of the Serbian army.
​

 

[milosmilanovcanin]

After leaving Belgrade, as monarch of the Yugoslav Royal House, King Petar II Karadjordjevic practically abdicated from the Yugoslav throne. He and his descendants after the breakup of Yugoslavia and the eventual return of Serbia as a state on the world stage more not the first, as a rule heritage, Serbian heirs to the throne.


Although for decades hidden that Obrenovic Royal House has a living descendants, this fact was well known. After the despicable murder of King Aleksandar I Obrenovic in a conspiracy organized by the then Prince Petar Karadjordjevic, it was said, in the same directed that Obrenovic Dynasty no longer living descendants. This story was certainly far from the truth.


Milos brother by mother Lord Jakov Obrenovic had living descendants. Because they were subjected to constant persecution, they had their original surname Obrenovic that changes in Jakovljevic, in accordance with the name of an ancestor of this branch of the Royal Houses Obrenovic. Also, Municipal Court in Gornji Milanovac confirmed the origin of the members of the Royal House. At the meeting, which was held in early July 2015. members of the Privy Council and descendants have decided that the first head of the family and the Royal House becomes H.R.H. Prince Predrag R. Jakovljevic de Obrenovic.

ROYAL HOUSE OF OBRENOVIC

 

[Blog Real]

What are the links of the Royal House Obrenovic with the Royal House Current?

 

[milosmilanovcanin]

Connections exist in every views. Today descendants are the inheritors of the Royal House of Obrenovic, while H.R.H. Prince Predrag R. Jakovljevic de Obrenovic, as a descendant of the Serbian Royal Dynasty, Hereditary Prince of Serbia.

Royal House - Royal Family Obrenovic

 

[Blog Real]

But who is this applicant?

 

[Marc23]

But who is this applicant?

Descendant of Prince Milosh's half-brother Jakov from his mother's side.

Apart from that, this royal title and HRH are totally funny and non-existent.

This guy is only one of heirs to Obrenovic's personal fortune, left by Queen Natalia to descendants of Prince Milos's half-brother Jakov.

 

[milosmilanovcanin]

Of course, title that have HRH Prince Predrag R. Jakovljevic de Obrenovic is not funny at all, least of all non-existent. The claim that there are no descendants of the dynasty Obrenovic binds only to supporters of the rival dynasty Karadjordjevic that in every way they want them to impugn. The reason for this is that the dynasty Karadjordjevic illegally came to the throne 1903. and took a place in which they had no rights.
Regardless of what the Lord Jakov and Prince Milos had a common mother, but not common father, it certainly does not deny the descendants of Lord Jakov Obrenovic succession of all rights that they had the rulers of the dynasty Obrenovic. Like I said, invented rules that tell individuals about whom I have already talked, where it mentions the right of inheritance only through the male line descendants, have no basis.

 

[Marc23]

It is funny, because you mix things.

Nobody here disputes that they are related to Obrenovic dynasty, but disputes the existence of titles which some of them use today, which is funny.

During the reign of Obrenovic dynasty Jakov's issue didn't have any titles. You can't use titles if you are not given one.

How can they have titles today when they didn't have titles even during the reign of their cousin??? Who and exactly when bestowed titles to them??? Those are self-proclaimed titles...

Hope you understand the difference between these 2 things. They are relatives, but they never had or held any titles.

Descendants of Jakov of course do have personal inheritance rights based on the testament which Queen Natalia left them based on their kin as the nearest Obrenovic relatives and that's all.

 

[milosmilanovcanin]

In this case, the funny ones who speak of untruths. Did I, or anyone on this forum, talking about personal inheritance. Certainly not. So why mention it? Of course, just because the individuals that I spoke about in the last post, they want to present untruths.
Descendants of Lord Jakov are the successors of the rulers of the dynasty Obrenovic. Do you have evidence that during the reign of the dynasty Obrenovic, descendants of Lord Jakov Obrenovic did not have titles. Because you do not have such evidence, then do not write untruths.
H.R.H. Predrag R. Jakovljevic de Obrenovic is a hereditary prince of the Royal House of Obrenovic. Some of the Royal House in Europe and the world already have renewed relations with the Royal House of Obrenovic, just because the aristocratic origin of the descendants of Lord Jakov Obrenovic they known. In the future everything will be more clearly, while discussions with people who have no authority in this matter will be unnecessary.

 

[Marc23]

Ohhh, please. This is funny indeed.

Predrag is not male line descendant of either any King so that he automatically has the title of HRH the Prince, or a male-line descendant of any former reigning Prince so that he could automatically have the title of HSH Prince.

As he is a descendant of female line cousin, the ruling Princes Milos, Milan, Mihailo or later Kings Milan or Alexander must have specially created official title for some of Predrag's ancestors.

When bestowed, titles are officially proclaimed so that the public would know them, properly use them and are also officially registered.

As you say that Predrag is actually HRH Prince Predrag that narrows the circle. That means that only King Milan or King Alexander of Serbia could give the title of Prince with predicate HRH to an ancestor of Predrag, since the Kingdom of Serbia existed from 1882.

Before 1882 Serbia was Principality whose Prince did not bear a royal highness title. Male line members of the family were only HSH, except the ruler who was HH.

If Predrag is indeed HRH as you claim, that means that his ancestor could have gotten this title only from either King Milan or King Alexander, that means that the title could be only given in period from 1882 to 1903.

Where is the document or the evidence of that???

So, it's not up to me to prove them, but to you or anyone who claims that Predrag Jakovljevic is actually HRH Prince Predrag.

 

[milosmilanovcanin]

Yes, yes. How much stupidity in one place. As I have already said, I will continue a conversation with people that can documented to confirm his allegations. Because this person is not, I think there is no need to continue the discussion. Supporters of the dynasty Karadjordjevic I can recognize everywhere, like at this place, which is another reason nothingness of all claims that you have heard here.

To all members of the Forum in the name of the Royal House of Obrenovic, and in the name of the legal successor of the dynasty H.R.H. Prince Predrag R. Jakovljevic de Obrenovic, I wish a very Merry Christmas and a prosperous New Year.

 

[Marc23]

Since you can't answer any of my questions and you obviously don't have any proof of your claim, it is very logical that you can't continue this discussion.

And before claiming something ridiculous, like that I am some kind of someone's supporter, please check some of my previous posts where I was very critical about leading members of Karadjordjevic family and where I stated that there is no chance of the restoration, partly because of their behavior, as they are not popular among people for various reasons I already stated.

If I were a supporter, as you say, wouldn't it be logical for me to do the contrary???

So, for you or anyone else, I am not here to support anyone or anything, as there is no monarchy, nor anything to support about. I am here just to talk about historical facts and based on that to discuss royals. That's all!

 

[DWC]

I would be interested to know what the constitution in force in 1903 said regarding the law of succession. I’m not sure if the future King Milan for example not descending from Prince Milos, would have been born a member of the Princely House and that there was a clear line of succession or if he was adopted as heir. Certainly when the family appeared in the Almanach de Gotha in 1903 the only listed family members were King Alexander, his wife and mother, not the Kings elderly female cousins who were daughters of Jovan Obrenovic and looking at the Online Gotha still alive then.

Because of what happened in 1903 with the sudden regicide I can imagine the remaining members of the Obrenovic family forming a family council to decide a new heir amongst themselves because of the vacuum caused by no heir having been nominated by King Alexander, similar to Prince Mihailo having adopted Milan as heir. I personally until recently didn’t realise there were descendants of the family still from half brothers of Prince Milos. So I don’t personally dismiss this claim but like I say I would be interested to know what the constitution said and if there was a house law, as succession to descendants of the brothers of Prince Milos has precedence such as with Prince/King Milan.

The Serbian successions haven’t always been very orderly, even in the Karageorgevitch family there was the senior line which became extinct in 1920 descending from Kara George’s eldest son which claimed the throne in opposition to the junior reigning line which descended from reigning Prince Alexander, the younger son of Kara George.

 

[Marc23]

I would be interested to know what the constitution in force in 1903 said regarding the law of succession. I’m not sure if the future King Milan for example not descending from Prince Milos, would have been born a member of the Princely House and that there was a clear line of succession or if he was adopted as heir. Certainly when the family appeared in the Almanach de Gotha in 1903 the only listed family members were King Alexander, his wife and mother, not the Kings elderly female cousins who were daughters of Jovan Obrenovic and looking at the Online Gotha still alive then.

Milan didn't have a title before being proclaimed Prince and then King, but Prince Michail was the one who took care after him and sent him to Paris for his education which might be the sign, but hasn't officially proclaimed him his heir.

Based on Serbia's constitution from 1869 (after Milan ascended the throne in 1868), heirs to the throne are only male line descendants of the ruling family.

Only in case there were no male-line members of the ruling family left, heirs to the throne are female line male descendants of Prince Milosh, which means males who are legitimate descendants of his daughters.

The last constitution of King Alexander Obrenovic was in 1901.

Article 6 says:

"U Srbiji vlada Kralj Aleksandar I, iz Dinastije Obrenovića V. Sva prava kraljevska, po više puta
ponovljenim odlukama narodnim, nasledna su u Njegovoj Dinastiji.
Presto Srbije nasleđuje se u potomstvu Kralja Aleksandra ovim redom: Muško potomstvo iz zakonitog
braka po redu prvorođenja.
Ako Kralj ne ostavi za sobom muškog potomstva, nasledstvo prelazi na pobočnu liniju, a ako nijednog
od muških potomaka u Domu Obrenovića ne bi bilo, nasledstvo prelazi na njegovo neposredno žensko
potomstvo, opet iz zakonitog braka."


Literally it means:

"Serbia is ruled by King Alexander I, from Obrenovic dynasty. All royal rights, based on many times repeated national decisions, are hereditary in his dynasty.

The heirs to the throne of Serbia are legitimate male line descendants of King Alexander I from the lawful marriage, based on primogeniture.

If there are no male line descendants of King Alexander, the heirs to the throne are collateral members of the dynasty and if there are no male line members of the ruling family left, the heirs to the throne are female line descendants, again from legitimate and lawful marriage."

 

[milosmilanovcanin]

Yes, you are right, Mr. DWC. The Royal Council, appointed by the members of the family Obrenovic and prominent citizens, decided to H.R.H. Prince Predrag R. Jakovljevic de Obrenovic unanimously placed for first Head of the Royal House of Obrenovic and thus confirming his rights that belong to him legally. This decision was accepted with the approval of many citizens of Serbia, among others, a certain number of Royal and Princely houses of Europe and the world, because they were familiar with the decision for the appointment of a successor shortly before the assassination of King Aleksandar I Obrenovic.

Article of the Constitution pertaining to the heirs to the throne, from 1901, was automatically null and void just for the reason that it was known that the King Aleksandar does not have his male descendants. Illegal coming to power of the dynasty Karadjordjevic, where it is not allowed yet the Constitution of 1869. (Article 10), was accelerated only by reason that would prevent the arrival of the legitimate successor to the throne with deliberately devising imaginary obstacles.

 

[Marc23]

So, according to the 1901 constitution this man could today press his claims to the Serbian throne:

Tallián Tibor - Oktatók - Liszt Ferenc Zeneművészeti Egyetem

He is Baron Tibor Béla Miklos Tallián de Vizek, born in 1946 in Salzburg.

He is great-great-great-great grandson of Prince Milosh Obrenovic:


Prince Milosh Obrenovic, lived from 1780-1860
I
Princess Petrija Obrenovic, lived from 1808-1870
I
Atanasije Bajic de Varadia, lived from 1828-1876
I
Maria Bajic de Varadia, lived from 1864-1932
I
Baron Jenő Tallián de Vizek, lived from 1894-1926
I
Baron Tibor Jenő Tallián de Vizek, born in 1920
I
Baron Tibor Béla Miklós Tallián de Vizek, born in 1946


I think that there are more people who could today claim the rights to the throne based on their legitimate ancestry of Prince Milosh Obrenovic.

Article of the Constitution pertaining to the heirs to the throne, from 1901, was automatically null and void just for the reason that it was known that the King Aleksandar does not have his male descendants.

Yes, but you did not mention that this article 6 from 1901 Serbia's constitution also says that if there are no male heirs, the claims pass to female line descendants of the ruling family and Prince Milosh's daughters had progeny.

Predrag Jakovljevic is only descendant of Prince Milos's maternal half-brother, so he can't be male-line heir as he is not a male-line descendant of the ruling family, nor was his family ever mentioned in any Serbian constitution regarding succession to the throne.

In 1903 there were a lot of people living who could put their claim to the throne based on their legitimate female ancestry from Prince Milosh Obrenovic.

 

[milosmilanovcanin]

Ah, yes. I do not forget that even this. A law heritage throne decide descendants of the Royal House of Obrenovic together with the people of Serbia. Because of that, all insinuations as well as the foreign interference are not authoritative for this Royal House.

 

[Marc23]

Ah, yes. I do not forget that even this. A law heritage throne decide descendants of the Royal House of Obrenovic together with the people of Serbia. Because of that, all insinuations as well as the foreign interference are not authoritative for this Royal House.

What is here foreign interference???

 

[DWC]

Thanks for the info Marc. Looking at it I would question if descent from the father of Prince Milos is important or not, as the name of the Royal House, Obrenovic, was the family name of Prince Milos elder half brothers and the name which he adopted in place of his own name Todorovic. So would they not all be classed as belonging to the Obrenovic dynasty if Prince Milos’s full brothers did.

I think from reading the 1901 constitution it could perhaps be argued the elder half brothers descendants are “collateral members of the dynasty”, as at the time of the constitution King Alexander had no siblings or cousins, so who was the collateral line if not those of the elder half brothers as these I think would only ones be classed as male members of the dynasty being male line descendants of the half brothers of Prince Milos.

I’m also sure I’ve read before Queen Natalie named the Jakovljevic’s as heirs in her will.

 

[Marc23]

Yes, they are one of the heirs to her will.

Jakovljevic family can't be collateral branch since they are not the same male line as the ruling family...

If King Alexander says specifically "male line descendants" , that literally means same male line descendants...male line descendants as he is, his father Milan was and every other Obrenovic ruler was.

All Obrenovic rulers and ruling family members were descendants of one father.

Considering family name, Milos has very smartly done that.

During Serbia's uprising wars his maternal half-brother Milan Obrenovic was very well respected as a soldier. Because of that he got as a reward from Karadjordje(who was at that time ruler of Serbia), the right to be governor in one of Serbian areas.

When his half-brother Milan died in 1810, Milos, who often fought alongside Milan, took his family name as his own so that he can, based on that, put his claim to govern the area his half-brother was governing before himself, despite the fact that deceased Milan had older full brother Jakov and a son who was very much alive,but later died in Russia.

Thanks for the info Marc. Looking at it I would question if descent from the father of Prince Milos is important or not, as the name of the Royal House, Obrenovic, was the family name of Prince Milos elder half brothers and the name which he adopted in place of his own name Todorovic. So would they not all be classed as belonging to the Obrenovic dynasty if Prince Milos’s full brothers did.

In 1901 when the last constitution was made descendants of Milosh's half-brother were already Jakovljevic family.

So, if the last King wanted to include them he would say all male line descendants of the body of Visnja Obrenovic(Milosh's and Jakov's mother), not just all male line descendants of the Obrenovic dynasty.

They officially changed their surname in 1851, which was 50 years before the last constitution during King Alexander Obrenovic's reign. In 1901 they were already two different families with two different surnames who don't share male-line descent, but were related.

So in 1901 they were already Jakovljevic family for 50 years and would be mentioned as Jakovljevic family in Serbia's constitution, if someone wanted to include them, just as Queen Natalia specifically included them in her testament.

 

[milosmilanovcanin]

Thanks for the info Marc. Looking at it I would question if descent from the father of Prince Milos is important or not, as the name of the Royal House, Obrenovic, was the family name of Prince Milos elder half brothers and the name which he adopted in place of his own name Todorovic. So would they not all be classed as belonging to the Obrenovic dynasty if Prince Milos’s full brothers did.

I think from reading the 1901 constitution it could perhaps be argued the elder half brothers descendants are “collateral members of the dynasty”, as at the time of the constitution King Alexander had no siblings or cousins, so who was the collateral line if not those of the elder half brothers as these I think would only ones be classed as male members of the dynasty being male line descendants of the half brothers of Prince Milos.

I’m also sure I’ve read before Queen Natalie named the Jakovljevic’s as heirs in her will.

Exactly, as you said DWC. The basis of the surname of the dynasty Obrenovic was taken from the Lord Jakov Obrenovic, as the oldest with that surname. These false statements, that the heirs of the dynasty of rulers only descendants in the male line absolutely not true. Way of coming to power did not have its own rules. When it comes to Obrenovic dynasty, they came to the throne of Serbia with selection (Prince Milos and Prince Mihailo), transferring the rights of succession (Prince then King Milan) and succession (Prince Milan I and King Aleksandar).

You see that you were easily to immediately conclude that the descendants of Jakov Obrenovic the rightful successor of all the rights that belonged to the rulers of the dynasty.

No matter what the descendants of Jacob Obrenovic later changed his surname to Jakovljevic, It certainly does not take away their hereditary line that they carry with them. So look logical, would the Queen Natalija them randomly picked as successors. Of course not, because it is very well aware of their origin, considering that the assets of the dynasty Obrenovic best to remain in the hands of those who are legal heirs of the royal family. One small part bequeathed to the descendants of which originates Tomanija Bogicevic. She was the wife of the Jevrem Obrenovic (the youngest brother of Prince Milos).

The fact that the descendants of Jakov Obrenovic changed their surname in Jakovljevic 1851. it`s also not correct. This can be verified in the cemetery where they were buried the first members of the family Obrenovic, because on tombstones surname Obrenovic appears much later than 1851.

 

[Marc23]

Exactly, as you said DWC. The basis of the surname of the dynasty Obrenovic was taken from the Lord Jakov Obrenovic, as the oldest with that surname. These false statements, that the heirs of the dynasty of rulers only descendants in the male line absolutely not true. Way of coming to power did not have its own rules. When it comes to Obrenovic dynasty, they came to the throne of Serbia with selection (Prince Milos and Prince Mihailo), transferring the rights of succession (Prince then King Milan) and succession (Prince Milan I and King Aleksandar).

The election was based on male-line descendance and Jakovljevic family members are not male-line descendants...that's a fact!

Based on that they are not Princes, especially not H.R.H.

For being H.R.H you have to descend from the King, for being a Prince you have to descend from the ruling Princes and Jakovljevic family hasn't descended from either King or Prince.

So, if you do not descend from a King or a Prince, for having title of Prince you should be proclaimed Prince first...but even that never happened, so...

A cousin of the ruling family-YES, heir to Queen Natalia's testament-YES, but a Prince- NO and H.R.H.- NO!

Even Milan Obrenovic didn't have a title before being proclaimed Prince and then King.

You see that you were easily to immediately conclude that the descendants of Jakov Obrenovic the rightful successor of all the rights that belonged to the rulers of the dynasty.

Both 1869 and 1901 Serbia's constitutions say "male-line descendants" and Jakovljevic family are not male line descendants.

What bothers me are fake titles...

Before his succession to the throne, even Milan Obrenovic was never a Prince. And he was male line descendant, unlike Predrag, who isn't.

And concerning Predrag, I do think that there are few other Jakovljevic male line descendants who belong to an elder line and would have more rights for the claim than he has...Zoran, Slobodan, Aleksandar...

I bought several books about Obrenovic family. The author was Mr. Slobodan Jakovljevic, but, unlike some wanna be royals, this guy, apart from kinsman-ship, never claimed that he is H.R.H the Prince.

 

[milosmilanovcanin]

The only thing you can do is laugh, nothing else to do.

The fact is that in Serbia exist the Royal House of Obrenovic and of course H.R.H. Prince Predrag Jakovljevic de Obrenovic as its first Head and the hereditary Prince, which is, remind, elected by the decision of their relatives to this place. The concerned persistently tries to deny what is already the facts, but reason is just the reopening of the Royal House of Obrenovic on serbian ground. This event has fundamentally shaken the supporters of the dynasty Karadjordjevic that in every way trying to deny its existence.


Do not forget that the Prince Djordje Karadjordjevic (son of the late Prince Tomislav Karadjordjevic) during a meeting with Prince Predrag accepted the fact that the Royal House of Obrenovic reality, which can no longer be amended.

 

[Marc23]

The fact is that in Serbia exist the Royal House of Obrenovic and of course H.R.H. Prince Predrag Jakovljevic de Obrenovic as its first Head and the hereditary Prince

Who gave him the title?

During the reign of Obrenovic family, Jakovljevic family didn't have any titles.

Even descendants of Jevrem Obrenovic, full brother of Prince Milosh didn't held any titles prior to Serbia invited them to be rulers, despite being male line collateral branch of the family.

How can a female line relative of the family have titles if a male line relatives didn't have any titles during the reign of Milos,Milan and Michail???

 

[milosmilanovcanin]

This is exactly what you do not know. Not all documents were available to public and history. Something has existed within the family which are still preserved. This is enough to be able to say.
The descendants of Jacob Obrenovic after vile assassination of King Aleksandar Obrenovic become his legal successor in every sense.