Royal-Royal Marriages Today

[meeralakshmi]

If Infanta Sofía married a foreign prince, she would not receive a ducal title. In Spain a royal title such as Infanta outranks any title of mere nobility, so the Infantas have never used their ducal titles and were only created Duchesses to allow their husbands to use the title of Duke as consorts. A foreign prince would already have his own Prince title to use, so there would be no need to make him a duke consort.

The question of the Belgian royal family’s legal surname has been discussed at length, with extensive citations, in the Belgian title threads, so I will not repeat it here. In brief, the male-line members of the family have been legally registered with the surname “de Saxe-Cobourg” in French and “van Saksen-Coburg” in Dutch since 2022. “Gotha” is not part of the surname. “Of Belgium” (de Belgique/van België) continues to be used as an informal “surname” in day-to-day life but is no longer considered their legal surname.

So if Sofía were to marry Emmanuel she would just become a princess of Belgium and the surname of their children in Spain would be de Sajonia-Coburgo y Borbón. Would Emmanuel and their children still receive the prefix of don/doña? And I would assume that if an infante marries a foreign princess she won't receive a title either, is that correct?

Also Infante Juan made Infanta Pilar a duchess prior to her wedding despite her husband already being a viscount in his own right. Her husband had been wanting the viscountcy to be revived for him a couple years prior to the wedding, I'm not sure if he and Pilar were together then but Juan made Pilar a duchess a couple weeks after Franco finally made Luis a viscount.

Jaime de Marichalar also held the title of Lord of Tejada in his own right.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

Replied in the thread on Spanish titles so as not to take this thread too far off-topic.

Yes, Luis did indeed have a title in his own right. However, creating Pilar a duchess provided Luis with the ability to use a higher title than the one he held. His own viscountcy was not attached to a Grandeeship of Spain, so it ranked lower than a ducal title.

The ducal title was not for Pilar to use, as her Infanta title outranked the ducal title per Spanish rules, but her husband. See how her sister Margarita and nieces Cristina and Elena (who were also given duchessdoms) and their husbands were styled by the royal court:

- S.A.R. la Infanta Doña Margarita y el Duque de Soria
- S.A.R. la Infanta Doña Cristina y el Duque de Palma
- S.A.R. la Infanta Doña Elena y el Duque de Lugo

InicioCastellano - Casa Real

Casa Real

www.casareal.es

A couple of clarifications on other issues you mentioned:

1. Pilar’s father Juan believed he was the de jure King of Spain and so he called himself Count of Barcelona (a subsidiary title of the Spanish kings), instead of Infante.

Full explanation here: The late Count and Countess of Barcelona

2. Franco’s grant of the non-hereditary title Duke (Duchess) of Badajoz to Pilar and Franco’s rehabilitation of the title Viscount de la Torre to her husband Luis Gómez-Acebo were published in the State Bulletin on the same day, and therefore entered into force on the same day.

https://boe.es/boe/dias/1967/04/17/pdfs/A05076-05076.pdf

Where did you hear this?

 

[meeralakshmi]

Leopold II was a monster and this has nothing to do with him as a person but if one of his descendants married a descendant of his brother Prince Philippe their bloodlines would finally be connected (Leopold II’s only surviving children were daughters so the throne passed to Philippe’s son as Philippe turned it down). Maybe Victoire Bagory or one of the granddaughters of Marie-Astrid and Prince Louis Napoléon.

 

[Opals]

As third cousins, at their closest connection, are Prince Vincent and Princess Estelle distant enough relatives for a future match? It would certainly be fun for royal watchers for Estelle's spouse to be the descendant of the 2 Bernadotte princesses who married into the Danish Royal family. Their kids would be descendants of Carl XV and Vincent would be the first Danish Royal married to a swedish monarch (future monarch) since Sophia Magdalena in 1766

 

[meeralakshmi]

As third cousins, at their closest connection, are Prince Vincent and Princess Estelle distant enough relatives for a future match? It would certainly be fun for royal watchers for Estelle's spouse to be the descendant of the 2 Bernadotte princesses who married into the Danish Royal family. Their kids would be descendants of Carl XV and Vincent would be the first Danish Royal married to a swedish monarch (future monarch) since Sophia Magdalena in 1766

Yes third cousins is distant enough. Estelle and either Vincent or Henrik would be cool.

 

[BigLenny]

I have two possible matches: Count Henrik with Princess Antoinette d'Orléans and Countess Athena with Prince Gaston d'Orléans.

 

[JR76]

D

As third cousins, at their closest connection, are Prince Vincent and Princess Estelle distant enough relatives for a future match?

Yes third cousins is distant enough. Estelle and either Vincent or Henrik would be cool.

Distant enough? Neither Sweden nor Denmark has laws against close relatives marrying. Third cousins are hardly even considered family these days.

 

[meeralakshmi]

I have two possible matches: Count Henrik with Princess Antoinette d'Orléans and Countess Athena with Prince Gaston d'Orléans.

They would be marrying French people just like their father and grandma.

D


Distant enough? Neither Sweden nor Denmark has laws against close relatives marrying. Third cousins are hardly even considered family these days.

I meant that it’s distant enough that the average person wouldn’t consider it problematic.

 

[Mbruno]

If Infanta Sofía married a foreign prince, she would not receive a ducal title. In Spain a royal title such as Infanta outranks any title of mere nobility, so the Infantas have never used their ducal titles and were only created Duchesses to allow their husbands to use the title of Duke as consorts. A foreign prince would already have his own Prince title to use, so there would be no need to make him a duke consort.

The question of the Belgian royal family’s legal surname has been discussed at length, with extensive citations, in the Belgian title threads, so I will not repeat it here. In brief, the male-line members of the family have been legally registered with the surname “de Saxe-Cobourg” in French and “van Saksen-Coburg” in Dutch since 2022. “Gotha” is not part of the surname. “Of Belgium” (de Belgique/van België) continues to be used as an informal “surname” in day-to-day life but is no longer considered their legal surname.

It is interesting that Prince Gabriel took the name “ van Saksen-Coburg” at the Royal Military Academy, but Princess Elisabeth was called “ van België”.

I suspect Sofia and Emmanuel’s children would be called “ de Bélgica y de Borbón” in Spain, even though Emmanuel’s legal surname is de Sajonia-Coburgo.

 

[BigLenny]

Some more matches that come to the top of my head include:

• Archduke Károly-Konstantin von Habsburg and Princess Eléonore of Belgium
• Prince Alexander Georgievich Romanov of Russia and Princess Marija of Serbia
• Prince Stefan of Serbia and Princess Adrienne of Sweden
• Prince Giorgi Bagrationi and Princess Leonore of Sweden
• Prince Carl Friedrich of Prussia and Princess Amalia of Nassau
• Afonso, Prince of Beira and Countess Maddalena or Mafalda Arrivabene-Valenti-Gonzaga (if nobility also count for this thread)
• Prince Joseph Wenzel of Liechtenstein and Countess Mafalda or Maddalena Arrivabene-Valenti-Gonzaga (if nobility also count for this thread)

 

[Mbruno]

So if Sofía were to marry Emmanuel she would just become a princess of Belgium and the surname of their children in Spain would be de Sajonia-Coburgo y Borbón. Would Emmanuel and their children still receive the prefix of don/doña? And I would assume that if an infante marries a foreign princess she won't receive a title either, is that correct?

Also Infante Juan made Infanta Pilar a duchess prior to her wedding despite her husband already being a viscount in his own right. Her husband had been wanting the viscountcy to be revived for him a couple years prior to the wedding, I'm not sure if he and Pilar were together then but Juan made Pilar a duchess a couple weeks after Franco finally made Luis a viscount.

Jaime de Marichalar also held the title of Lord of Tejada in his own right.

Don/Doña is no longer used exclusively for nobility. It is an honorific prefix used for any person of a certain social standing in Spanish-speaking countries. I remember for example that, in Thesis Committees in Spanish universities, the committee members who were from Spain were listed as Don/Doña (and I doubt any of them was noble), but members of other non-Spanish-speaking countries (for examples professors from the US or from other EU countries) were not.

I suppose that Infanta Sofia's children, as children of a Spanish infanta, would be entitled in Spain to the same consideration as Grandees, so they could be addressed as Excelentísimo(a) Señor(a) Don/Doña. However, as Prince Emmanuel's children, they would be HRHs and Princes/Princesses of Belgium in Belgium itself, which would override any other lower rank they might have in my opinion.

If Sofia married Emmanuel, my assumption is that they would live in Belgium rather than Spain and that Sofia and her children would be seen and treated as members of the Belgian royal family rather than the Spanish royal family, although technically they would be in the line of succession to the throne in both countries.

 

[meeralakshmi]

if nobility also count for this thread

I guess they do but the Arrivabenes are the children of a princess so for them it doesn't matter.

It would be cool to see a relative of a US president marry a royal, American "royalty" meets real royalty. There is a book/movie about this called Red, White & Royal Blue where the son of the president of the United States falls in love with a British prince. I believe the closest example of this happening IRL is Queen Noor who was the daughter of an American politician. Jackie Kennedy's sister married Prince Stanisław Albrecht Radziwiłł but she wasn't a blood relative of a president.

 

[JR76]

It would be cool to see a relative of a US president marry a royal, American "royalty" meets real royalty. There is a book/movie about this called Red, White & Royal Blue where the son of the president of the United States falls in love with a British prince. I believe the closest example of this happening IRL is Queen Noor who was the daughter of an American politician. Jackie Kennedy's sister married Prince Stanisław Albrecht Radziwiłł but she wasn't a blood relative of a president.

Julia Grant, grandaughter of President Ulysses Grant, married the Russian Prince Mikhail Cantacuzène in 1899.

 

[meeralakshmi]

Julia Grant, grandaughter of President Ulysses Grant, married the Russian Prince Mikhail Cantacuzène in 1899.

Very cool.

 

[Noble Consort Ming]

D


Distant enough? Neither Sweden nor Denmark has laws against close relatives marrying. Third cousins are hardly even considered family these days.

In fact in Sweden marriage between half siblings is legal.

 

[meeralakshmi]

In fact in Sweden marriage between half siblings is legal.

Oh my, I hope that doesn't actually happen.

 

[JR76]

In fact in Sweden marriage between half siblings is legal.

Not automatically. The couple would have to apply for permission from the authorities. The same apply to adopted siblings.

Oh my, I hope that doesn't actually happen.

It happened twice in the years between 2015 and 2024.

 

[meeralakshmi]

If Princess Charlotte of Wales married Prince Taufa’ahau Manumataongo of Tonga there would be two Queen Charlottes of Tonga, one consort and one regnant (the one queen regnant of Tonga was named Sālote which is the Tongan form of Charlotte).

The Lesotho royals are Catholic so they could marry any of the European Catholic royals. Maybe Princess ‘Maseeiso Seeiso and Prince Gabriel of Belgium or Prince Lerotholi Seeiso and Princess Eléonore of Belgium.

Prince Hashem of Jordan could marry Princess Lalla Khadija of Morocco.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

I suspect Sofia and Emmanuel’s children would be called “ de Bélgica y de Borbón” in Spain, even though Emmanuel’s legal surname is de Sajonia-Coburgo.

Generally, the second surname is omitted in daily conversation, so the media would most likely refer to their hypothetical children as simply "Princesa/Principe xxx de Bélgica".

 

[meeralakshmi]

Both Princess Yasmin Aga Khan and Princess Zara Aga Khan married men who did not convert to Islam. Who a Muslim woman can marry depends on what sect she belongs to.

Does anyone know if Maya al-Askari was already Christian when she married Archduke Maximilian of Austria or if she converted from Islam?

 

[Somebody]

Princess Elisabeth of Belgium clearly knows the children of Georg and Eilika von Habsburg-Lothringen; so maybe a match between one of the Belgian royal children with one of them might be a good match?

Belgian princesses:
Elisabeth (25 Oct 2001) OR Eléonore (16 April 2008)
with Habsburg prince:
Károly Konstantin (20 July 2004)

Belgian princes:
Gabriel (20 August 2003) OR (less likely) Emmanuel (4 October 2005)
with either one of the Habsburg princesses:
Zsófia (12 January 2001) OR Ildikó (6 June 2002)

In most of these cases the princess would be older than the prince but that shouldn't be a problem as the age differences remain limited.

 

[meeralakshmi]

Princess Elisabeth of Belgium clearly knows the children of Georg and Eilika von Habsburg-Lothringen; so maybe a match between one of the Belgian royal children with one of them might be a good match?

Belgian princesses:
Elisabeth (25 Oct 2001) OR Eléonore (16 April 2008)
with Habsburg prince:
Károly Konstantin (20 July 2004)

Belgian princes:
Gabriel (20 August 2003) OR (less likely) Emmanuel (4 October 2005)
with either one of the Habsburg princesses:
Zsófia (12 January 2001) OR Ildikó (6 June 2002)

In most of these cases the princess would be older than the prince but that shouldn't be a problem as the age differences remain limited.

Astrid and Lorenz would love this If Elisabeth married a Habsburg their male-line Belgian royal descendants would be elevated from HRH to HI&RH.

However Belgium would only refer to them by their Belgian titles and HRH.

All three Dutch queens regnant so far married German royals/aristocrats. While I can’t think of any specific examples there are many for Amalia to choose from to continue the pattern. Idk if there was ever any truth to the rumors about her and Boris but he would continue the pattern as a member of the House of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha.

 

[Marengo]

The grandson of Pss Benedikte, Richard von Pfeil und Klein-Ellguth or Karl Theodor of Württemberg, the grandson of Diane de France and Max and Elisabeth in Bavaria, would be two interesting German matches, and both Benedikte as the duke and duchess in Bavaria are old friends of the family. Another interesting match would be a son of the Prince of Lippe and his wife, who is a niece of the late Prince Richard of Berleburg. But it is unlikely she has ever met them and a bourgeois marriage is more likely.

The story with prince Boris is now generally considered to have been false and they are simply friends.

 

[Stefan]

All three Dutch queens regnant so far married German royals/aristocrats. While I can’t think of any specific examples there are many for Amalia to choose from to continue the pattern. Idk if there was ever any truth to the rumors about her and Boris but he would continue the pattern as a member of the House of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha.

Maxima was also the first non-german Consort of a dutch monarch after 4 generations. And before that there was only one exception with Grand Duchess Anna Pavlovna of Russia.

 

[tihkon2]

Maxima was also the first non-german Consort of a dutch monarch after 4 generations. And before that there was only one exception with Grand Duchess Anna Pavlovna of Russia.

And even Anna was basically German.

 

[Stefan]

And even Anna was basically German.

Actually she was almost entire german as her ancestors were all german . One would have to go to Peter the Great to find non-german ancestors.

 

[JR76]

Actually she was almost entire german as her ancestors were all german . One would have to go to Peter the Great to find non-german ancestors.

Given that Catherine I was born Marta Skavronskaya to Baltic or Slavic parents her and Peter's daughter, Grand Duchess Anna Petrovna, was also not of German descent.

 

[meeralakshmi]

Princess Elisabeth of Belgium is rumored to be dating Prince Georg of Liechtenstein. If it’s true and they end up marrying that would be absolutely epic as both are from reigning royal families and very blue-blooded. Georg is also his generation’s spare. Would he have to surrender his Liechtenstein succession rights to become the king/prince consort of Belgium? Otherwise if his older brother only had daughters he would find himself as king/prince consort of Belgium and prince of Liechtenstein and if his first child with Elisabeth was a boy he would inherit both thrones.

 

[Moonmaiden23]

Hmm...gonna have look up Georg. His face doesn't come immediately to mind.

In any case, I would be 100% surprised if Elisabeth didn't marry an aristocrat or a fellow Royal.

 

[Kinan]

I think the photo of Elisabeth and Georg that is circulating online right now, is real, not AI.

My reason is that Emmanuel, brother of Elisabeth posted an instagram story "Respectez la vie privée. Faites preuve d'empathie. Ce n'est pas si compliqué! = Respect privacy. Show empathy. It's not that complicated!" It means Emmanuel was so upset about the publication of the photo. If the photo is AI, why would he be so upset?

https://twitter.com/x/status/1971599749062230211