Royal Names

[Next Star]

Not to mention that one wearer met with a fairly gruesome demise.

Don't you mean Marie-Antoinette who was the Princess of austria her mother was Empress Maria-theresa Of austria . And Marie-Antoinette became queen of France at the age of 17.

 

[Furienna]

But she WAS talking about the name Marie Antoinette (Maria Antonia), not the name Maria Theresa.

 

[Next Star]

I know that she was talking about Marie-Antoinette I just had to point out that her mother was named Maria -Theresa by the way I was not responsing to you.

 

[norwegianne]

I know that she was talking about Marie-Antoinette I just had to point out that her mother was named Maria -Theresa by the way I was not responsing to you.

I'm well-aware of who Marie-Antoinette's mother was, thank you. And I thought it was implied in my reply that I was talking about the same name as you. Evidently not.

 

[Next Star]

I was saying who her mother was because like I said before there are other royal woman who also bear the name Maria-Antoinette. So one would get confused beening there are a few other royals with the same name.

 

[Sancia]

By the way, Marie-Antoinette's official name was Maria Antonia (her full name was Marie Antonia Josepha Johanna).

 

[CyrilVladisla]

When Prince Carl of Denmark was chosen to be King of Norway, I like the fact that he chose Haakon as his new name and that his son, Prince Alexander, was given the name of Olav.
​

 

[CyrilVladisla]

Princess Alix of Hesse and by Rhine (1872-1918) had the first name of her mother Princess Alice. If Alix had not married Tsar Nicholas II and had married another foreign royal, do you think she would have kept her first name of Alix?

 

[theroyalfly]

Princess Alix of Hesse and by Rhine (1872-1918) had the first name of her mother Princess Alice. If Alix had not married Tsar Nicholas II and had married another foreign royal, do you think she would have kept her first name of Alix?

For sure. Foreign born royals marrying into the Russian Imperial Family traditionally change their name before they get accepted in the Russian Orthodox Church. If by chance, she married another dynast from another royal family, she could have kept her name.

 

[JR76]

Princess Alix of Hesse and by Rhine (1872-1918) had the first name of her mother Princess Alice. If Alix had not married Tsar Nicholas II and had married another foreign royal, do you think she would have kept her first name of Alix?

For sure. Foreign born royals marrying into the Russian Imperial Family traditionally change their name before they get accepted in the Russian Orthodox Church. If by chance, she married another dynast from another royal family, she could have kept her name.

I guess that hat would depend on the country. In Sweden the Bernadottes, in their attempts to seem more Swedish, had a tradition of adapting the names of royal brides. Examples of this are Désirée --> Desideria, Joséphine --> Josefina, Louise --> Lovisa, Sibylle --> Sibylla.
The Swedish Princess Lovisa on the other hand had her name changed to Louise when she married the future King Frederik VIII of Denmark.
Princess Jelena of Montenegro became Elena when she married Victor Emmanuel III of Italy.

 

[theroyalfly]

I guess that hat would depend on the country. In Sweden the Bernadottes, in their attempts to seem more Swedish, had a tradition of adapting the names of royal brides. Examples of this are Désirée --> Desideria, Joséphine --> Josefina, Louise --> Lovisa, Sibylle --> Sibylla.
The Swedish Princess Lovisa on the other hand had her name changed to Louise when she married the future King Frederik VIII of Denmark.
Princess Jelena of Montenegro became Elena when she married Victor Emmanuel III of Italy.

All you have mentioned are facts. But the question was specifically about the name 'Alix.'

If Princess Alix of Hesse and by Rhine married a dynast from Sweden or Italy as you mentioned, what do you think would have been her name?

To add, Louise Mountbatten didn't change her name to Lovisa nor Marie José of Belgium when she married Umberto II.

 

[Denville]

All you have mentioned are facts. But the question was specifically about the name 'Alix.'

If Princess Alix of Hesse and by Rhine married a dynast from Sweden or Italy as you mentioned, what do you think would have been her name?

To add, Louise Mountbatten didn't change her name to Lovisa nor Marie José of Belgium when she married Umberto II.

If she married into Italy, I should say she might have changed her german Sounding name to Alicia. I think Alix would have been fine as a name if she had married a Swedish Royal

 

[JR76]

All you have mentioned are facts. But the question was specifically about the name 'Alix.'

If Princess Alix of Hesse and by Rhine married a dynast from Sweden or Italy as you mentioned, what do you think would have been her name?

To add, Louise Mountbatten didn't change her name to Lovisa nor Marie José of Belgium when she married Umberto II.

Yes, Louise didn't change her name no, but her step-daughter-in-law had her name tweeked as did her husband's first wife. I think the reason for her name not being changed was that by the time of her marriage her name had become a common name while Lovisa was seen as old fashioned.
I think that Alix would have changed her name to Alice which was quite a fashionable name in Sweden in the late 1800s.

 

[CyrilVladisla]

If Princess Alix had married a Danish Royal, what is the Danish equivalent of Alice?

 

[theroyalfly]

I think Alice will be alright.

 

[CyrilVladisla]

Queen Victoria's first grandson, Wilhelm II was a future heir to the German throne. The unity between the two countries, England and Germany, was embodied in his very name: "Friedrich Wilhelm" after his Prussian forebears and "Albert Victor" after his British grandparents.

 

[An Ard Ri]

Catherine de Médicis,queen and Regent of France had a an unusual middle name ,she was baptized Catherine,Maria, Romola ,di Lorenzo de Medici,Romola was the feminine form of Romulus one of the founders of Rome.

 

[CyrilVladisla]

The first Romanov Tsar is Michael I who was crowned on July 22, 1613.
However, no male descendants in the Russian imperial family were named Michael until Grand Duke Michael Pavlovich, the son of Tsar Paul I of Russia, was born in 1798.

 

[An Ard Ri]

And the last one was Grand Duke Michael Alexandrovich the younger brother of Tsar Nicholas who was murdered in June 1918.

 

[CyrilVladisla]

Edith of Scotland was the daughter of King Malcolm III and Queen Margaret of Scotland. She married King Henry I of England. She was not known as Queen Edith of England. She changed her name to Matilda and was thus Queen Matilda.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

How is it less feminist to give your daughter, the future queen regnant, a name you simply like with no associations for her (as she has confirmed Estelle was rather than after a distant relative) rather than try to find a place for her in centuries of patriarchal tradition?

Well, the expectation and hope is that Victoria and Estelle will indeed find a place in centuries of patriarchal tradition by succeeding (in multiple senses) as heads of the traditionally patriarchal institution of the Swedish monarchy.

And in Swedish and European tradition, the boys born to be heads of royal or noble families are traditionally given names of the predecessors, and on the occasions when they are not, then at least names with some royal significance – whereas daughters are often named more freely because they are not expected to carry on the dynasty.

Compare the naming of the most recent generations of boys who were expected at birth to become monarchs: Every single one was named after a previous monarch(s).

Carl, Gustaf, and Carl Gustaf were the names of past kings of Sweden.
Frederik and Christian were the names of past kings of Denmark.
Harald and Haakon were the names of past kings of Norway.
Willem was the name of past kings of the Netherlands, and Alexander was the name of a prior crown prince of the Netherlands.
Charles, William and George were the names of past kings of Britain.
Juan, Carlos, and Felipe were the names of past kings of Spain.
Baudouin/Boudewijn was the name of several reigning counts of Flanders, one of the medieval states located in the territory of the modern kingdom of Belgium, and of one of the patron saints of the Belgian royal family.
Jean, Henri, Guillaume, and Charles were the names of past dukes or grand dukes of Luxembourg.
Hans-Adam, Alois, and Joseph Wenzel were the names of past princes of Liechtenstein.
Rainier, Albert, and Jacques were the names of past princes of Monaco.

 

[Prinsara]

Well, the expectation and hope is that Victoria and Estelle will indeed find a place in centuries of patriarchal tradition by succeeding (in multiple senses) as heads of the traditionally patriarchal institution of the Swedish monarchy.

And in Swedish and European tradition, the boys born to be heads of royal or noble families are traditionally given names of the predecessors, and on the occasions when they are not, then at least names with some royal significance – whereas daughters are often named more freely because they are not expected to carry on the dynasty.

Compare the naming of the most recent generations of boys who were expected at birth to become monarchs:

So strictly conforming to male tradition furthers gender equity, but letting your daughter have space to stand by herself is currently a sign of lesser treatment instead of iconoclasm or love. I wonder what signs of inequity would be found if she was Ulrika?

There was an Elizabeth once, whom the odds favored to be queen and who was simply named after her mother. She didn’t do too badly.

And further back… there was a Victoria, oddly enough. Same situation, except her name was viewed as so foreign and un-royal people thought it should be changed. She must have had a hundred namesakes or more, and those were just the relatives. Names are a fashion, and views change just as quickly.

And even further back, there’s an Esther who’s not only a queen (even if a consort) but a wise hero who saved innumerable lives. If Estelle does even the smallest piece of that, she’ll be a shining success.

As it is, she suits her name and I imagine the Swedes will welcome her when the time comes (always assuming the monarchy itself continues).

 

[Tatiana Maria]

So strictly conforming to male tradition furthers gender equity, but letting your daughter have space to stand by herself is currently a sign of lesser treatment instead of iconoclasm or love. I wonder what signs of inequity would be found if she was Ulrika?

There was an Elizabeth once, whom the odds favored to be queen and who was simply named after her mother. She didn’t do too badly.

And further back… there was a Victoria, oddly enough. Same situation, except her name was viewed as so foreign and un-royal people thought it should be changed. She must have had a hundred namesakes or more, and those were just the relatives. Names are a fashion, and views change just as quickly.

And even further back, there’s an Esther who’s not only a queen (even if a consort) but a wise hero who saved innumerable lives. If Estelle does even the smallest piece of that, she’ll be a shining success.

As it is, she suits her name and I imagine the Swedes will welcome her when the time comes (always assuming the monarchy itself continues).

It wasn't my intent to express an opinion about the ancient tradition of namesakes for men and women in Western culture, or whether Estelle will make a good queen if the monarchy survives (which I don't think her name will impact upon). But I appreciate the response.

What would you say is the reason why naming traditions in royal families are more inclusive - or, from your perspective, enforcing stricter conformity - of boys than girls? If more iconoclastic naming is simply a sign of love and "letting your daughter have space to stand by herself", why haven't royal families equally extended this freedom to sons?

 

[meeralakshmi]

Well, the expectation and hope is that Victoria and Estelle will indeed find a place in centuries of patriarchal tradition by succeeding (in multiple senses) as heads of the traditionally patriarchal institution of the Swedish monarchy.

And in Swedish and European tradition, the boys born to be heads of royal or noble families are traditionally given names of the predecessors, and on the occasions when they are not, then at least names with some royal significance – whereas daughters are often named more freely because they are not expected to carry on the dynasty.

Compare the naming of the most recent generations of boys who were expected at birth to become monarchs: Every single one was named after a previous monarch(s).

Carl, Gustaf, and Carl Gustaf were the names of past kings of Sweden.
Frederik and Christian were the names of past kings of Denmark.
Harald and Haakon were the names of past kings of Norway.
Willem was the name of past kings of the Netherlands, and Alexander was the name of a prior crown prince of the Netherlands.
Charles, William and George were the names of past kings of Britain.
Juan, Carlos, and Felipe were the names of past kings of Spain.
Baudouin/Boudewijn was the name of several reigning counts of Flanders, one of the medieval states located in the territory of the modern kingdom of Belgium, and of one of the patron saints of the Belgian royal family.
Jean, Henri, Guillaume, and Charles were the names of past dukes or grand dukes of Luxembourg.
Hans-Adam, Alois, and Joseph Wenzel were the names of past princes of Liechtenstein.
Rainier, Albert, and Jacques were the names of past princes of Monaco.

In my opinion names of future monarchs don’t have to be after past monarchs, original names (at least for monarchs as they’re often after people who weren’t monarchs) are nice too. If George’s first child is a girl it would be nice if he chose the name Alice after Philip’s mother rather than Mary, Anne, Victoria, or Elizabeth. Alice was a war hero and deserves to at least have a British princess named after her even if she doesn’t become queen.

 

[Prinsara]

If more iconoclastic naming is simply a sign of love and "letting your daughter have space to stand by herself", why haven't royal families equally extended this freedom to sons?

Well, sometimes they have. If there are many sons in a family the family names tend to run out, unless you are Oscar II and name all your sons Oscar Something. But elsewhere and otherwise there is creativity and you get things like Octavius or Gonzalo.

With specific reference to (this) Oscar and Estelle, Oscar is most likely not going to be king. In that position if you are Frank or Gary in the Swedish Royal Family you would be viewed as an outsider with no heir comforts or prestige. So Oscar actually needs the name as a sign of belonging; Estelle doesn’t.

It’s a sign of love, too. Sometimes you can’t give a boy and a girl in different situations identical treatment to level a playing field.

And if all my posts seem to miss whatever point you are trying to make, perhaps it’s simpler to stop quoting me.

 

[meeralakshmi]

What would you say is the reason why naming traditions in royal families are more inclusive - or, from your perspective, enforcing stricter conformity - of boys than girls? If more iconoclastic naming is simply a sign of love and "letting your daughter have space to stand by herself", why haven't royal families equally extended this freedom to sons?

Of the younger generation of future European queens regnant:

- Princess Elisabeth of Belgium is named after her great-great-grandma who was a queen consort of Belgium.
- Princess Ingrid Alexandra of Norway is named after Queen Ingrid of Denmark and her great-great-great-grandma Queen Alexandra of the UK.
- Leonor, Princess of Asturias is named after Eleanor, Princess of Asturias who was heir presumptive to the Castilian throne until the birth of a younger brother (King Henry IV). She tragically died a month before her second birthday.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

And if all my posts seem to miss whatever point you are trying to make, perhaps it’s simpler to stop quoting me.

No, of course your posts don’t all miss whatever point I am trying to make. Naturally I try to write clearly and to quote or not quote as appropriate, but I’m aware there continue to be times when the results are unsatisfactory for the reader.

Of the younger generation of future European queens regnant:

- Princess Elisabeth of Belgium is named after her great-great-grandma who was a queen consort of Belgium.
- Princess Ingrid Alexandra of Norway is named after Queen Ingrid of Denmark and her great-great-great-grandma Queen Alexandra of the UK.

Ingrid Alexandra was named Ingrid after family members on both her paternal and maternal sides and named Alexandra after her great-grandfather King Olav V (who was born as Prince Alexander to Denmark).

Den lille Prinsessen fikk navnet Ingrid Alexandra. Ingrid er et gammelt slektsnavn fra både Kronprins Haakons og Kronprinsesse Mette-Marits familie. Alexandra er en oppkalling etter Kong Olav. Da han var liten gutt og bodde i Danmark – før han kom til Norge – het han nemlig Alexander.

Translation:

The little Princess received the name Ingrid Alexandra. Ingrid is an old family name from both Crown Prince Haakon’s and Crown Princess Mette-Marit’s family. Alexandra is a namesake for King Olav. When he was a little boy and lived in Denmark – before he came to Norway – he was named Alexander.

Prinsesse Ingrid Alexandra

Kongehusets barnesider: Prinsessen ble født 21. januar 2004. Hun er arveprinsesse, det vil si at hun en er arving til den norske tronen og en dag vil bli dronning.

www.kongehuset.no

- Leonor, Princess of Asturias is named after Eleanor, Princess of Asturias who was heir presumptive to the Castilian throne until the birth of a younger brother (King Henry IV). She tragically died a month before her second birthday.

Leonor was the name of a Spanish queen regnant (Queen Leonor I of Navarre), but her parents apparently did not explain the choice of name except to say that they liked it:

La Princesa de Asturias comentó que eligieron este nombre porque figuraba en la lista que habían elaborado para el caso de que fuera niña. De todos ellos, era el que más le gustaba a don Felipe. De ahí la elección. "A él le hacía ilusión y a mi me encantó", agregó su esposa.

Translation:

The Princess of Asturias commented that they chose this name because it was on the list they had drawn up in case it was a girl. Of all of them, it was the one that Don Felipe liked the most. Hence the choice. "He was thrilled with it and I loved it," his wife added.

https://web.archive.org/web/20091101000000/http://terranoticias.terra.es/especiales/leonor-de-borbon/articulo/infanta_leonor_bebe_precioso_muy_581405.htm

 

[meeralakshmi]

Ingrid Alexandra was named Ingrid after family members on both her paternal and maternal sides and named Alexandra after her great-grandfather King Olav V (who was born as Prince Alexander of Denmark). Quoting the Royal House:

Den lille Prinsessen fikk navnet Ingrid Alexandra. Ingrid er et gammelt slektsnavn fra både Kronprins Haakons og Kronprinsesse Mette-Marits familie. Alexandra er en oppkalling etter Kong Olav. Da han var liten gutt og bodde i Danmark – før han kom til Norge – het han nemlig Alexander.

Translation:

The little Princess received the name Ingrid Alexandra. Ingrid is an old family name from both Crown Prince Haakon’s and Crown Princess Mette-Marit’s family. Alexandra is a namesake for King Olav. When he was a little boy and lived in Denmark – before he came to Norway – he was named Alexander.

However Alexander was after his maternal grandmother Queen Alexandra.

Leonor was the name of a Spanish queen regnant (Queen Leonor I of Navarre)

That's true, however Navarrese monarchs aren't counted in the regnal numbers of Spanish monarchs so it's more likely Leonor is named after the original Leonor, Princess of Asturias.

 

[Stefan]

Of the younger generation of future European queens regnant:

- Princess Elisabeth of Belgium is named after her great-great-grandma who was a queen consort of Belgium.
- Princess Ingrid Alexandra of Norway is named after Queen Ingrid of Denmark and her great-great-great-grandma Queen Alexandra of the UK.
- Leonor, Princess of Asturias is named after Eleanor, Princess of Asturias who was heir presumptive to the Castilian throne until the birth of a younger brother (King Henry IV). She tragically died a month before her second birthday.

And Crown Princess Victoria is named after her great-great-grandmother who was a Swedish Queen Consort

 

[Prinsara]

And Crown Princess Victoria is named after her great-great-grandmother who was a Swedish Queen Consort

Maybe not, as the lady was quite unpopular in Sweden, status or not, and she didn’t have a great deal of love for the place.

@Tatiana Maria pointed out her parents got engaged on Victoria’s name day, and that might have more to do with it.