Royal and Noble Families: Dynastic Laws and Marriage Rules

[Marc23]

It depends on House rules of certain family...

Some families had the rules that the new member should have certain amount of equal or at least noble ancestors...Countess Bertha Suttner-Kinsky could not be even presented in Austrian Court because her mother was a "mere" noble who didn't have enough noble ancestors...she described these requirements in her memories...She also describes the fact that her mother,as Countess Kinsky did have access to highest circles,but because of her lower birth was just formally greeted and wasn't acknowledged as part of the highest circle,so she often spent time on balls being alone with just few people who would continue talking to her more,while the most others would just officially and politely greet her and leave...

On the other hand,some other families treated as equal just a factual membership of certain House,no matter who his/her ancestors were...
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[Sangre_Real016]

i see, so, sometimes even if one is born to an illustrious noble house such as the House of Kinsky but has a parent of lower birth, that person would also be looked down by some.. so, meaning even though the House of Kinsky has produced many consorts for Liechtenstein, Countess Bertha bck then might not be considered good enough?

as for the House of Zogu, are they considered equal to sovereign houses? i remember that most royal families looked down on them as they are somewhat parvenus.. unlike the House of Petrović-Njegoš of Montenegro, who's members married equally to sovereign houses and even produced 2 Grand Duchess of Russia and 1 Queen of Italy, the House of Zogu of Albania has no such connections..

also, some noble families such as the House of Kohary and Festetics de Tolna have married into grand families such as Saxe-Coburg and Gotha and Furstenburg respectively, and were considered equal even though both houses were not mediatised.. and where does the House of Pless stands, seeing they were once sovereign dukes/princes of Pless before it was absorded into Poland.
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[Noble Consort Ming]

I think the Albanian royal family(house of Zogu) is Muslim and that would also throw a wrench into things when considering unions with other houses.

 

[Marc23]

i see, so, sometimes even if one is born to an illustrious noble house such as the House of Kinsky but has a parent of lower birth, that person would also be looked down by some...

Yes,because an ordinary noble could be considered good enough for the junior members of the House of Kinsky,but in terms of number of noble ancestors sometimes not good enough for some other Houses who require not just the membership of the certain House,but also certain number of noble ancestors(8 or 16 for example)...

The marriage between Bertha's parents was treated as equal,but considered a misalliance even in the family as her father Franz was a famous General,while her mother Sophie Wilhelmine was just a member of the untitled nobility...

also, some noble families such as the House of Kohary and Festetics de Tolna have married into grand families such as Saxe-Coburg and Gotha and Furstenburg respectively, and were considered equal even though both houses were not mediatised.. and where does the House of Pless stands, seeing they were once sovereign dukes/princes of Pless before it was absorded into Poland..

Like the Houses of Hatzfeld or Carolath-Beuthen,Princes von Pless were Prussian Princes who inherited Pless from their Anhalt ancestors...

This means that they could be considered good enough for some Houses and yet not good enough for the grandest Houses who required sovereignty or at least former sovereignty within Holy Roman Empire(mediatized families),which was not the case with Pless Princes as they were "only" Princes in Prussia,not in the Holy Roman Empire...

i remember that most royal families looked down on them as they are somewhat parvenus.. unlike the House of Petrović-Njegoš of Montenegro, who's members married equally to sovereign houses and even produced 2 Grand Duchess of Russia and 1 Queen of Italy, the House of Zogu of Albania has no such connections..

Furthermore produced Princess von Battenberg and wife of the Serbian King,while gaining Princess von Mecklenburg-Strelitz as it's Crown Princess on the insistence of the Emperor Wilhelm II ...on the other hand,one sister of the Albanian King was married to an Ottoman Prince,while the King married a Hungarian Countess...

Unlike the House of Zogu who reigned only for 11 years in Albania,and that is from 1928-1939,the House of Petrovic-Njegosh reigned in Montenegro for more then 220 years,from 1690-1918 which could be a big difference...

Further more,the House of Petrovic-Njegosh is the elder dynasty,descended from the Duke Bogut,General and Lord within the Empire of Serbia in the first half of 14th century,while the House of Zogu originated from the governors of Mati and first mentioned in 15th century,gaining the rule only in 1928,while the Petorvic-Negosh family officially started to rule way back in 1690...
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[Sangre_Real016]

i see.. so that was how they were considered good enough.. so how about now? say an Albanian princess would end up marrying Grand Duke Georg Mikhailovich of Russia, can their union be considered equal?

...an ordinary noble could be considered good enough for the junior members of the House of Kinsky,but in terms of number of noble ancestors sometimes not good enough for some other Houses...

then how about say a daughter of a Spanish Grandee with 16 noble ancestors? would she be considered good enough to be?

...Pless Princes were "only" Princes in Prussia,not in the Holy Roman Empire...

i see.. so thinking back now, if by any chance a daughter of John Chruchill, Duke of Marlborough who was then still Prince of Mindelheim married, say the heir or a son of the Elector of Hanover, who their union be considered equal?
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[Marc23]

then how about say a daughter of a Spanish Grandee with 16 noble ancestors? would she be considered good enough to be?

It depends by whom and by what standards

At that time,I doubt that it would be enough for any royal,except maybe some new established ones like the Emperor Napoleon III of the French. Officially,he was a monarch,a royal,an Emperor,but unofficially(in reality) he wasn't even considered good enough for a "third rate" German Princess,

first rate: daughters of Kings (Prussia, Bavaria, Württemberg)
second rate: daughters of the ruling Grand Dukes, Dukes, and Princes (Mecklenburg, Baden, Oldenburg)
third rate: daughters of the mediatized Princes (Hohenlohe, Leiningen, Wied)

,so in the end he had to settle for a daughter of Spanish Grandee (Eugenie Montijo)...that's how it functioned back in those days!

That could also be an answer to your question about hypothetical marriage between Princess of Albania and Grand Duke George Mikhailovich...If she would change her faith and the Head of the Family approves,there could be a way to treat it equal officially,but unofficially it would be treated as a sort of misalliance between an Heir of an old and ancient family and a royal from a newly established ruling family...

i see.. so thinking back now, if by any chance a daughter of John Chruchill, Duke of Marlborough who was then still Prince of Mindelheim married, say the heir or a son of the Elector of Hanover, who their union be considered equal?

Hmm,if the families like Hannover were in question,the answer would most likely be no...We mentioned earlier that he was downgraded as Prince of Mellenburg,just a "personaliter" Prince in the Empire,like Princes Kinsky,Lynar,Paar and Lamberg were...and those families are now in Gotha III part,just like heirs to his body Spencers are...So,I don't think there would be much difference in treating of the family,apart from the fact that many German ruling families still associated themselves dynastically with the Houses like Kinsky or Paar were...

Apart from that,even if he would still be the ruling Prince von Mindelheim,many of those German ruling families required,aside from the present official position of the family,certain amount of high noble pedigree and uradel status of the family...And John Churchill's family didn't have neither of that as he was just a son of a landed gentry to whom they laughed at the Imperial Court and whose female succession they(German high nobility) barred because they didn't want to risk a chance to associate themselves with an offspring of an "upstart Englishman" in future...

That is why his written petition for succession for his Imperial titles was ignored as the Emperor didn't want to make his high nobility angry and in the end most of them didn't want to have anything to do with the Duke of Marlborough...
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[Sangre_Real016]

yes.. i have read about how Napoleon III was rebuffed by both Princess Carola of Sweden and Princess Adelheid of Hohenlohe-Langenburg.. his future wife, Doña María Eugenia Palafox, 19th Countess of Teba was at first, a prospect mistress.. and it was said that when he asked her "What is the road to your heart?", the Countess of Teba answered, "Through the chapel, Sire"..

i believe the wedding announcement sent waves across Europe and was looked down in the UK who thought that "a Spanish countess, of legitimate title and ancient lineage" was not good enough to be Empress of the French.. even though Eugenie herself is the great great granddaughter of Jean-Baptiste de Croÿ, Duke of Havré of the mediatised House of Croy who's sister married Landgrave Philip of Hesse-Darmstadt..

...even if he would still be the ruling Prince von Mindelheim,many of those German ruling families required,aside from the present official position of the family,certain amount of high noble pedigree and uradel status of the family...

i was referring when he was still Prince of Mindelheim.. i understand, but can it not be the same when Stéphanie de Beauharnais married Karl, Grand Duke of Baden? i mean, even though the marriage was a misalliance, it was treated equal.. John Churchill was once a celebrated general and was welcomed in courts across Europe with full honors.. what if one of his daughters, say Princess Mary of Mindelheim, future Duchess of Montagu, say married the heir of one of the Ernestine Duchies, can it be treated equal in some way?
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[Marc23]

i was referring when he was still Prince of Mindelheim..

I know,that's why I explained what could have been in each case,either as the reigning Prince von Mindelheim or personaliter Prince von Mellenburg...

i understand, but can it not be the same when Stéphanie de Beauharnais married Karl, Grand Duke of Baden?

Well,in some way and in that situation there could be the way,but as we know,less likely to happen in reality due to his family reputation among fellow reigning Princes of the Empire...Officially equal,but unofficially never accepted as such among them...if we speak of him as reigning Prince von Mindelheim...

yes.. i have read about how Napoleon III was rebuffed by both Princess Carola of Sweden and Princess Adelheid of Hohenlohe-Langenburg..

They obviously thought that the families of Holstein-Gottorp and Hohenlohe-Langenburg were too ancient for the Emperor from the House of Bonaparte...
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[Sangre_Real016]

Well,in some way and in that situation there could be the way,but as we know,less likely to happen in reality due to his family reputation...

i understand.. i just want to find out if ever one of her daughters would marry someone from a sovereign houses, would they be considered equal without any questions..

They obviously thought that the families of Holstein-Gottorp and Hohenlohe-Langenburg were too ancient for the Emperor from the House of Bonaparte...

well true.. but i don't think antiquity of nobility is the main factor.. i think they looked at the Bonapartes are parvenus in their power.. come to think of Eugenie herself is also of ancient lineage.. plus her title and nobility were unquestionable..
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[Marc23]

...if ever one of her daughters would marry someone from a sovereign houses, would they be considered equal without any questions..

It depends on what kind of terms a House in question demands for marriage equalness...
Not every House has the same criteria...

i don't think antiquity of nobility is the main factor..

Being ancient and once a sovereign is not the same as being a parvenu dynasty...in their world at the time obviously!

Btw,from her fathers side Eugenie had a good pedigree for some noblewoman rank...she could also pass as a wife of a mediatized Count or a Prince,if her family was rich and influential,but for some future Grand Duchess,Queen or an Empress it wasn't good enough and that's why they looked down upon her...At the time of the marriage in France this marriage was regarded as an "amazing humiliation"...

Further to that,her mothers pedigree was more simple and belonged just to the landed gentry...
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[Sangre_Real016]

Not every House has the same criteria...

yes.. it really seems that way.. some houses seems families like Festetics de Tolna, Kohary and Kinsky.. while others need more illustrious families with at-least semi-sovereign status such as Rohan and Ligne.. while other strictly prohibits marriage with lower houses..

Being ancient and once a sovereign is not the same as being a parvenu dynasty...

imo, there are only a couple of Spnish Grandee families with enough wealth and influence to be considered good enough for mediatised counts and princes.. imo, only the houses of Albas, Medinacelis and Medina Sidonias, and possibly Osunas are the only families with enough wealth and influence.
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[Marc23]

imo, there are only a couple of Spnish Grandee families with enough wealth and influence to be considered good enough for mediatised counts and princes.

Indeed,there was Duke Mariano of Osuna who married mediatized Princess Eleonore von Salm-Salm,for example...but those examples were very rare...

yes.. it really seems that way.

True,depending on what branch of the family is in question.
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[Sangre_Real016]

there is also, Don Jacobo Fitz-James Stuart, 5th Duke of Liria and Jérica who married Princess Caroline Antonia of Stolberg-Gedern, sister to Princess Louise of Stolberg-Gedern, herself the wife of Prince Charles Edward Stuart.. Doña Ana Luisa de Medina y Fernández de Córdoba, 12th Marquise of Navahermosa, daughter and heiress of Doña Victoria Eugenia Fernández de Córdoba y Fernández de Henestrosa, 18th Duchess of Medinaceli, who married Prince Maximilian Emmanuel of Hohenlohe-Langenburg.. well, this also means that the future 19th Duke of Medinaceli would be a Hohenlohe prince.. also, Doña Luisa de Guzman, daughter of Don Juan Manuel Pérez de Guzmán, 8th Duke of Medina Sidonia became Duchess of Braganza, and later Queen of Portugal and was the mother of Catherine of Braganza, Queen of England.. also, we can't forget about Doña Fabiola de Mora y Aragón, daughter of Don Gonzalo de Mora y Fernández Riera del Olmo, 4th Marquess of Casa Riera, who would become Queen of the Belgians.
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[Marc23]

True,but there are always some stories behind everything...

Princess Carolina Augusta was the first to get married and she was poor as a church mouse,so one could say that she got the comfortable life and the Duke got a wife of respectable and legitimate pedigree...She and the Duke later helped her sister Luise to contract the marriage with the Stuart heir...I mean,they were not in situation to choose,so they made maximum considering they didn't have the means to live comfortably considering they lost their father and that one of them lived due to goodness of the Empress Maria Theresia until the actual marriage...

Hohenlohe-Navahermosa marriage can be described as the respectable one...Plus,both were living in Spain...And the Prince was from the collateral branch of the mediatized family and married the daughter of the powerful Duchess of Medinaceli...At that time,the Head of the Hohenlohe family always looked for a little bit more equal and German bride...

Luisa de Guzman was the daughter of the Spanish Duke and married the Portuguese Duke...As her chances for the throne have increased she wanted to be the Queen with quoting her words:"Rather a Queen for one day,then the Duchess for the whole life."

So,it wasn't the situation like she married a King as a daughter of the Duke ,but married a nobleman who later became King due to many other circumstances...If Joao IV was proclaimed King of Portugal before the actual marriage,he would sought for a stronger alliance among other reigning families to cement his position as he was the new ruler...

At the time of Baudoin and Fabiola's marriage the concept of equalness was beginning to fade and was not important anymore...The Kings father and an ex-King was already married to a commoner,so a marriage between a King and a daughter of Marquis was sort of bearable...

 

[Sangre_Real016]

Princess Carolina Augusta was the first to get married...

yeah, i have read about that.. when Princess Louise chose to marry Prince Charles Edward, it really pissed off Empress Maria Theresa as she was an ally of the House of Hanover.. we'll, looking back, did Charles Edward even have wealth? from what i remember, the exiled Stuarts were living under the grace of their cousins, the Kings of France.. his grandmother, Princess Mary of Modena even had problems with her dowry.. the later Stuart heirs (Charles and Henry) attempted, for many years to retrieve the English dowry of their grandmother, and the British Government repeatedly promised to pay this debt to the Stuarts but had never actually done so.. anyways, the Dukes of Alba have always been one of the richest and most influential families in Europe..

also, Don Alfonso Martínez de Irujo y Fitz-James Stuart, 16th Duke of Aliaga, son of Doña María del Rosario Cayetana Fitz-James Stuart y Silva, 18th Duchess of Alba and the person with the most number of noble titles in the world, married Princess María de la Santísima Trinidad of Hohenlohe-Langenburg..

... married the daughter of the powerful Duchess of Medinaceli...

true.. and it is a known fact that the House of Medinaceli is one of the grandest noble house in Europe, a dignified rival to the House of Alba.. aside from being the eldest legitimate descendants of King Alfonso X of Castile through his eldest son, Don Ferdinand de la Cerda, Crown Prince of Castile and his wife, Princess Blanche of France, they are also, vassals of great wealth and influence that is very hard to find in Europe.. also, aside from the Hohenlohe-Navahermosa marriage, Don Ignacio de Medina y Fernández de Córdoba, 19th Duke of Segorbe, son of the Duchess of Medinaceli, married Princess Maria da Gloria of Orléans-Braganza, herself, a first cousin to the King of Spain.

At the time of Baudoin and Fabiola's marriage the concept of equalness was beginning to fade and was not important anymore...

yeah.. but looking now, it seems Belgium is one of the few monarchies, along with Liechtenstein to have never had a commoner as their consort..

Princess Louise of Orléans
Archduchess Marie Henriette of Austria
Duchess Elisabeth in Bavaria
Princess Astrid of Sweden
Doña Fabiola de Mora y Aragón
Princess Paola Ruffo di Calabria

and in the future,
Countess Mathilde d'Udekem d'Acoz

if Lady Diana Spencer didn't divorced Charles, UK will be among their ranks.. but then again, William married Kate, so it would be broken anyways..

 

[Mariel]

I thought the king of Belgium, after his wife Astrid died, married a commoner. I saw a picture on another webblog which showed the children of the Belgian king with his commoner wife, and with both the children of Astrid and the children of the commoner wife, playing together. The children of the commoner wife were called Prince and Princess. Was this last title incorrect? Were they in line to to the throne, even though way down the line? Fairly confusing.

 

[NGalitzine]

Leoplod III's second wife (Lillian) was a commoner but she was never Queen. Her children are HRH Prince/Princess of Belgium but not in line of succession.

 

[Sangre_Real016]

yes.. you are correct.. King Leopold III of Belgium married Mary Lilian Baels, later created as Princess Lilian of Belgium after became a widdow with the death of Princess Astrid of Sweden.. but the thing is, Lilian Baels was never Queen of Belgium, or was she his official consort.. she became a Belgian princess, and her children were all royal, but she was never queen.. so basically, all Queens of Belgium past, present and future were of royal/noble blood..

 

[Noble Consort Ming]

...and in the future,
Countess Mathilde d'Udekem d'Acoz.

Mathilde was not born a countess. She was Jonkvrouw Mathilde d'Udekem d'Acoz. Her family was raised to comital rank when she married. She was, of course, still of noble descent.

 

[fearghas]

...all Queens of Belgium past, present and future were of royal/noble blood.

And I hope that this continues with the first male consort. A prince of Denmark perhaps

 

[Marc23]

Mathilde was not born a countess. She was Jonkvrouw Mathilde d'Udekem d'Acoz. Her family was raised to comital rank when she married. She was, of course, still of noble descent.

I think he wanted to say at the time she becomes the Queen...If she would get a divorce right now,she would still be the Countess(if she doesn't get another title) in her own right...

 

[Araldus]

dynastic laws of the various royal houses of Europe: works, books, articles...

Does anyone know some printed works, books, articles also on internet, where I can found (almost some) dynastic laws of the various royal houses of Europe (maybe also correctly applied to the genealogies of the Families)?

Unfortunately the new series of the "Almanach de Gotha" or the "Genealogisches Handbuch des Adels - Fürstliche Häuser", aren't very useful in this particular subject.....
I have the sensation that very often the compilers of some genealogical books don't know the various dynastic laws, or simply they have ignored this subject during the compiling their genealogical works.

Thank you all for any information on this topic !

 

[Sangre_Real016]

Mathilde was not born a countess...She was, of course, still of noble descent.

true.. but regardless, she is still of noble descent.. Mathilde's grandmother was Princess Zofia Sapieha, a member of the House of Sapieha, one of the most powerful Polish noble families.. the Sapiehas is one of princely families that some sovereign houses have considered equal in marriage purposes such as the case of Princess Cristina of Orléans-Braganza married Prince Jean Sapieha-Rozanski.. her children, Princess Ana Teresa Sapieha-Rozanska and Princess Paola Sapieha-Rozanska are both in line to the Brazilian throne..

At the time of Baudoin and Fabiola's marriage the concept of equalness was beginning to fade ...

also, i have read that Fabiola's family, the de Mora y Aragons were close friends of the Spanish Royal family who were in exile back then.. not surprised though seeing that Fabiola's godmother was Queen Victoria Eugenia of Spain herself.. this connection allowed her to meet Baudoin, and her family's close connections with the Spanish royal family seems to add to her appropriateness to be Queen of Belgium.. it was said that when Prince Albert, Prince of Liege (future King Albert II) married Princess Paola Ruffo di Calabria, King Baudoin had already asked Doña Fabiola de Mora y Aragón's hand in marriage but was kept secret.
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[Noble Consort Ming]

true.. but regardless, she is still of noble descent.. .

Yeah, that's exactly what I said at the end of my post. You're arguing to agree??? I only pointed that she was not born a countess.

And I know all about her Polish background. I was born in Poland and am very familiar with our noble families.

 

[Marc23]

Her fathers family can claim noble descent for more then 1000 years ago which means that they also belong to a very old noble family that were once vassals of the Duke of Brabant.
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[Sangre_Real016]

true.. the d'Udekem d'Acoz family can be traced back since 939 AD.. Princess Mathilde's ancestry can be traced back for 25 generations to Raes of Udekem born aroun 1130.. her family is not far with the House of Wettin to which Prince Phillipe belongs to in terms of antiquity.
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[Marc23]

Obviously it's not everything about how old someone's family is,but how does the family develop and progress through time.
Some noble families stayed for a long time where they were and some progressed more quickly.

 

[Sangre_Real016]

But remember that during the Ancient Regime, Antiquity of nobility in the legitimate male line, not noble quarterings, was the main criterion of rank.. and to some families, antiquity of nobility is enough to be considered "good enough" for grander families.. but sadly, not enough for the creme of the crop..

 

[Warren]

Those at the top make the rules, and especially those rules applying to themselves.

 

[BrazilianEmpire]

...the Sapiehas is one of princely families that some sovereign houses have considered equal in marriage purposes such as the case of Princess Cristina of Orléans-Braganza who married Prince Jean Sapieha-Rozanski.. her children...are both in line to the Brazilian throne..

Princesses Ana Teresa and Paola of Sapieha-Rozanki aren't in line to the Brazilian Throne.
Their great-grandfather, Prince Pedro de Alcântara (1875-1940) renounced his dynastic rights, for himself and all his descendents.