Princess Madeleine, Chris O’Neill & their children moving to Sweden

[LadyFinn]

There has been continuous discussion in the media if Madeleine and Chris are moving to Stockholm next year.

The fact that the court retracted the news about the move is extremely unusual, says Johan T Lindwall, editor-in-chief of Svensk Damtidning. Titti and Ebba are therefore trying to find out what is behind the decision and if there will even be a move to Sweden for the princess in the future.
Monarkerna is a podcast with Titti Schultz and Ebba Kleberg von Sydow about the Swedish royal house and European monarchy.
Därför vägrar Chris flytta till Sverige 13 oktober 2023 - Monarkerna _ Sveriges Radio

Svensk Damtidning about the podcast
- What we know is that it was Chris O'Neill who put his foot down. He doesn't want to move back to Sweden. I can't see Chris walking one day in November when it's raining sideways on Nybrogatan, from Östermalmstorg towards the Royal Stables and everyone is looking and wanting to photograph him. He hates that kind of thing, says Johan T Lindwall.
Lindwall says Chris thinks it is hard to be in Sweden, to be a public figure and he thinks he is misunderstood.(..)
- They say August 2024. Yes, let's see if that happens. It might be a combination, Chris stays in New York or Florida and then they have a house here in Sweden that he commutes between.
Chris förändrad – därför vill han inte flytta till Sverige _*Svensk Dam

 

[Biri]

Madeleine is on the far position in the line of succession (only 8th), practically no chances for her to ever become Queen of Sweden, so she may live wherever she wants to live.

 

[JR76]

Madeleine is on the far position in the line of succession (only 8th), practically no chances for her to ever become Queen of Sweden, so she may live wherever she wants to live.

Nobody has ever questioned the right of Princess Madeleine to live wherever she wants to. It's her family's frequent international moves, the effect that living abroad will have on the children's position in the line of succession and last year's retracted announcement that they were going to move to Sweden that keeps making where they live an issue.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

Interesting that Johan T. Lindwall says "What we know is that it was Chris O'Neill who put his foot down" (emphasis mine). How reliable are his sources?

Princess Birgitta has been interviewed by Expressen. It's a paywall article.
[...]
Allt om kungligt quotes the interview:
Birgitta talks about her concern for Madeleine and Chris moving to Sweden next year. Birgitta doesn't understand that. How will Chris manage it? Madeleine yes, but Brigitta doesn't understand how Chris is going to manage it. But they want to come home because they want the children in Swedish schools.
[...]
Prinsessan Birgittas oro för Madeleine och Chris - Allt om kungligt

Is Princess Birgitta truly in a position to know the reasons why Princess Madeleine and Chris O'Neill plan(ned) to move to Sweden?

Nobody has ever questioned the right of Princess Madeleine to live wherever she wants to. It's her family's frequent international moves, the effect that living abroad will have on the children's position in the line of succession and last year's retracted announcement that they were going to move to Sweden that keeps making where they live an issue.

As well as the conflicting messages throughout the years about where the couple intend to settle in the long term.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

Madeleine is on the far position in the line of succession (only 8th), practically no chances for her to ever become Queen of Sweden, so she may live wherever she wants to live.

But her children are living with her, and the Act of Succession, which forms part of the Constitution, mandates that they be raised in Sweden (even if nobody seems to be interested in enforcing the Constitution).

https://www.riksdagen.se/globalassets/07.-dokument--lagar/the-act-of-succession-2012.pdf

Art. 4. In accordance with the express provision of Article 2 of the Instrument of Government of 1809 that The King shall always profess the pure evangelical faith, as adopted and explained in the unaltered Confession of Augsburg and in the Resolution of the Uppsala Meeting of the year 1593, princes and princesses of the Royal House shall be brought up in that same faith and within the Realm. Any member of the Royal Family not professing this faith shall be excluded from all rights of succession.

 

[victor1319]

Svensk Damtidning about Chris's companies...

I do not understand Chris O'Neill here! May be I am repeating myself, but Sweden has a really large hedge fund landscape. And in this regional circus some might be interested to be better connected to the conservative scene - if there is any - around the Royal House. So, there should be plenty of jobs and partnerships for Chris O'Neill in Sweden!

 

[Prinsara]

princes and princesses of the Royal House shall be brought up in that same faith and within the Realm. Any member of the Royal Family not professing this faith shall be excluded from all rights of succession.

It doesn't say "anyone not brought up within the Realm shall be excluded from all rights of succession", does it?

 

[suztav]

I feel sorry for Madeleine and the children. No doubt that Chris loves them. Unfortunately, he doesn't love all the baggage that comes with them. He doesn't seem to like living under a microscope. Sadly, he should have thought of that before he proposed marriage.

 

[kalnel]

I have to say that the stories I've seen lately about the couple do seem more than a bit unfair about Chris. One story I saw even criticized him for wearing loafers without socks, as if that were an unforgivable offense. (It may not be the norm in Sweden, but it is in the United States, especially in the summer.)

Other stories seem to have very unflattering photos that make it appear he's always smirking or scowling.

And then there are the stories about his business connections. Reports seem eager to point to problems and losses in these private companies, even though he doesn't appear to be seeking public support or sympathy. (It's worth noting that what appears on paper is not always the full story of what's happening with a company. Some years firms will write off a lot of losses for financial reasons, and it doesn't mean they are failing.)

I don't know anything about the guy beyond the gossip rags, but it seems clear some in the media are eager to tear him down.

 

[Moonmaiden23]

My belief is that Chris's determination to remain independent is misunderstood by some in the Swedish media. He refuses to live in Sweden...a truly beautiful country. He refused a Swedish Royal title because he doesn't want to give up his business interests.

He even refused to join the Swedish Lutheran Church.

All of this, coupled with how ill at ease he often appears when actually in the country has led the Swedes to think their beautiful princess is married to a man who dislikes them and refuses to assimilate.

But Chris sees it quite differently...he is trying to hold on to his identity. It is...as he is rumored to feel....a "misunderstanding".

 

[Stefanie]

I never understood why it' s for Madeleine obviously so important to let her children be Princess and Prince. Is it all about money?
Why didn' t she just do it like Princess Anne: No noble title for Peter and Zara. Now she risks even her marriage because the law says that she has to rise her children in Sweden. On the other hand I' m sure Chris knew all this before he married her. Maybe he is the problem by changing his mind now that the move is necessary.

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

The problem is the going back and forth - once you take a decision and you annouce it publicly, you stick with it. Everything else will cause polemic.
The media world in Sweden will not change for Mr. O'Neill, so if he doesnt like it, he should stay away.
Maybe or very likely the reason behind is money, I don't believe for one second that Chris is the only breadwinner for the family.
Maybe the King gives financial support on the condition that the kids remain in the succession therefore the move to Sweden is necessary.

 

[Mbruno]

The problem is the going back and forth - once you take a decision and you annouce it publicly, you stick with it. Everything else will cause polemic.
The media world in Sweden will not change for Mr. O'Neill, so if he doesnt like it, he should stay away.
Maybe or very likely the reason behind is money, I don't believe for one second that Chris is the only breadwinner for the family.
Maybe the King gives financial support on the condition that the kids remain in the succession therefore the move to Sweden is necessary.

If the King gives some financial supoort to Madeleine's family, it must come from his private fortune. The Royal Court now publishes in detail how the apanage voted by the Swedish Parliament is spent and officially none of it has gone to Princess Madeleine over the past years.



On the other hand, money may be one of the reasons why the family will be forced to move back to Sweden if we are to believe the constant reports by the Swedish press that Chris O'Neill's business ventures are failing across the board.

 

[tommy100]

If the children don't go to Swedish schools what happens. They lose their place in the line of succession? Do they lose their titles as well?

I don't think the issue is money - they seem to be living a wealthy lifestyle now and we know as others have said that no official money goes to Madde as it is now publicly stated who gets what. Some companies loosing money doesn't mean much IMO, Chris probably has investments in a few places and a "core" ringfenced set of investments or even trust funds thats bring in enough to support the family.

What bugs me is the fact that Chris does seem to be on the receiving end of unfair treatment to me - seemingly just because he has chosen to remain an independent man making his own life. I'm actually quite surprised hat isn't more welcomed it what is often said to be 'more egalitarian' Sweden. I mean, he seems to get worse treatment in the press than others who have married in and who come with much more reason to be critical IMO. Daniel got a rough ride for a bit but it seemed to turn quite quickly. The fact he wants to keep an independent life of him and his family should IMO be applauded, it surely is better than relying on the RF for a life and a lifestyle.

I wonder if London may be the answer, he is British and they lived there together for a while didn't they? It would be closer to Sweden if Chris were to hop back and forth between the two.

I think the problem is probably more Chris understands all the reasons why Madde wants to move back to Sweden (for herself and the children) but it really doesn't work for him. I don't mean in a superficial way but I think he really finds the attention and scrutiny quite hard in a way the likely would have serious negative effects.

 

[Moonmaiden23]

I tend to admire Christopher O'Neill for maintaining his career, his nationality and his identity. The problem as I see it is Madeleine's apparent desire that her children be titled.

Why is that so important to her? Titles or not they are grandchildren of a king and children of a Royal princess. And of all the Bernadotte siblings, Madeleine is the only one who married someone with an upper crust background.

Did she and Chris discuss this before marriage? They were together for at least two years.

Maybe on paper it seemed perfectly reasonable, but the reality is different than what they both anticipated.

 

[tommy100]

Don't the children ow hold their titles are purely personal titles anyway since the changes the King made? Surely he could see to it they keep them? I wonder if Madde does have strong feelings about the children being in the line of succession.

Or maybe, Madde simply has a strong desire to move back home.

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

If the children don't go to Swedish schools what happens. They lose their place in the line of succession? Do they lose their titles as well?

I don't think the issue is money - they seem to be living a wealthy lifestyle now and we know as others have said that no official money goes to Madde as it is now publicly stated who gets what. Some companies loosing money doesn't mean much IMO, Chris probably has investments in a few places and a "core" ringfenced set of investments or even trust funds thats bring in enough to support the family.

What bugs me is the fact that Chris does seem to be on the receiving end of unfair treatment to me - seemingly just because he has chosen to remain an independent man making his own life. I'm actually quite surprised hat isn't more welcomed it what is often said to be 'more egalitarian' Sweden. I mean, he seems to get worse treatment in the press than others who have married in and who come with much more reason to be critical IMO. Daniel got a rough ride for a bit but it seemed to turn quite quickly. The fact he wants to keep an independent life of him and his family should IMO be applauded, it surely is better than relying on the RF for a life and a lifestyle.

I wonder if London may be the answer, he is British and they lived there together for a while didn't they? It would be closer to Sweden if Chris were to hop back and forth between the two.

I think the problem is probably more Chris understands all the reasons why Madde wants to move back to Sweden (for herself and the children) but it really doesn't work for him. I don't mean in a superficial way but I think he really finds the attention and scrutiny quite hard in a way the likely would have serious negative effects.

They tried London before and it did not work out, the city is extremely expensive and has a fearsome reputation when it comes to paparazzis and tabloids. I remember they were photographed on a daily basis in their everyday life. Lucrative of course as the swedish mags will buy the pictures. If the enclave in Florida doesnt work out I dont know what will - in case the media is the reason.
But I suspect its money.

 

[Princess B]

I admire Chris for being independent and wanting to preserve his identity and not just be the husband of a Princess.
A lot of us speculate that Princess Madeleine wants to return to Sweden to keep her children’s titles and to have them in the line of succession.
For all we know it could be the kings desire or something else. I’m sure Madeleine realizes that the chances of her or her children inheriting the throne are next to nil. Besides they will still remain Duke/Duchess. And for all we know the kind could make ammends to allow them to keep their titles.
Maybe she just wants them to know about the country of which they are Prince and Princess and live there.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

I never understood why it' s for Madeleine obviously so important to let her children be Princess and Prince. Is it all about money?
Why didn' t she just do it like Princess Anne: No noble title for Peter and Zara. Now she risks even her marriage because the law says that she has to rise her children in Sweden. On the other hand I' m sure Chris knew all this before he married her. Maybe he is the problem by changing his mind now that the move is necessary.

I tend to admire Christopher O'Neill for maintaining his career, his nationality and his identity. The problem as I see it is Madeleine's apparent desire that her children be titled.

Prince Carl Philip's children have exactly the same titles as Princess Madeleine's children. Even his spouse is titled, unlike Princess Madeleine's spouse. Is it obviously important to or a desire of Carl Philip that his wife and children be titled? If not, what is the difference - other than the fact that he is male?

Throughout the ten-year marriage of the Princess Couple, it is Princess Madeleine who has sacrificed her career as a working member of the Royal House and project manager for the Swedish World Childhood Foundation, her children's possibility of remaining members of the Royal House, and the opportunity for her children, heirs to the Swedish throne, to grow up in their own Swedish culture, in order to live abroad so that her husband does not have to deal with a foreign culture and gossip press. Her husband, however supportive he may otherwise be, has not made the same sacrifice.

Why is it, then, that the wife, and not the husband, is perceived as the one creating problems that risk their marriage?

[...] he has chosen to remain an independent man making his own life. I'm actually quite surprised hat isn't more welcomed it what is often said to be 'more egalitarian' Sweden.

In my opinion, egalitarian behavior would be to treat wives equally to husbands. The mindset that a husband is entitled to decide where he and his wife live, with his career and his comfort taking priority over hers, is deeply rooted and still very much the rule in royal circles, but it is not egalitarian. Many women who have married royal princes have been independent-minded, made their own living, and received unfair coverage on gossip sites, but I cannot think of one who married a working royal prince and then insisted that her husband live with her in her own country. There is little doubt in my mind that if Princess Madeleine's and Chris O'Neill's genders were reversed, they would have moved to Sweden long ago.

(I agree with you that there is a double standard from the gossip press, but I do not think Chris O'Neill's "independence" is related to it.)

 

[Mbruno]

Don't the children ow hold their titles are purely personal titles anyway since the changes the King made? Surely he could see to it they keep them? I wonder if Madde does have strong feelings about the children being in the line of succession.

Or maybe, Madde simply has a strong desire to move back home.

The children are currently #9, 10 and 11 in the line of succession and will go futher down if Victoria's two children and CP's three sons also have children of their own.


Given how far down they are in the line to the throne, I don't understand why it is so important to Madeleine that her children have succession rights.

I admire Chris for being independent and wanting to preserve his identity and not just be the husband of a Princess.
A lot of us speculate that Princess Madeleine wants to return to Sweden to keep her children’s titles and to have them in the line of succession.
For all we know it could be the kings desire or something else. I’m sure Madeleine realizes that the chances of her or her children inheriting the throne are next to nil. Besides they will still remain Duke/Duchess. And for all we know the kind could make ammends to allow them to keep their titles.
Maybe she just wants them to know about the country of which they are Prince and Princess and live there.

It may not be all about the children either. Madeleine grew up in Sweden. It is her country, where she has her roots and an extensive social circle. Maybe she simply would rather live there than in Florida, where she might be an outsider. It is also possible that she misses "royal life" and, unlike her husband, is not so fond of a discreet and anonymous upper middle-class life. Keep in mind that she also grew up in the limelight as the daughter of a reigning king.

 

[hereditarytitles]

The children are currently #9, 10 and 11 in the line of succession and will go futher down if Victoria's two children and CP's three sons also have children of their own.


Given how far down they are in the line to the throne, I don't understand why it is so important to Madeleine that her children have succession rights.





It may not be all about the children either. Madeleine grew up in Sweden. It is her country, where she has her roots and an extensive social circle. Maybe she simply would rather live there than in Florida, where she might be an outsider. It is also possible that she misses "royal life" and, unlike her husband, is not so fond of a discreet and anonymous upper middle-class life. Keep in mind that she also grew up in the limelight as the daughter of a reigning king.

I agree to that, I guess that Madeleine got homesick. It is not for everyone to live in a beautiful big Florida house with probably not much contact to friends and neighbours. It could be boring after a while.
I don't think that Madeleine is much concerned about titles for her children, she is probably much more concerned about her children growing up in her home country, or at least near to it. And she is hopefully concerned about her husband's wellbeing and peace of mind. Somewhere I read, sorry I don't have a source, that Chris had a serious talk with the King (maybe it was about financial problems). They would never ever give such information to the press.
There might be several reasons for them moving back to Europe, Sweden or any other European country. I just hope that they are staying together as a happy family.

 

[Somebody]

Madeleine was not living in Sweden nor was she on active royal duty when the two of them met. She had relinquished all that after her engagement with Jonas broke off and she left for New York to heal from this painful breakup I suppose. While there she was able to work for her mother's charity organization.

So, at that time the two of them probably figured that this configuration of them living abroad with Madeleine travelling to Sweden occassionally would work out fine. So, it seems it was Madeleine who changed her mind. And it looks like they still - after trying various options - haven't found an arrangement that works for all of them .

 

[victor1319]

In my opinion, egalitarian behavior would be to treat wives equally to husbands. The mindset that a husband is entitled to decide where he and his wife live, with his career and his comfort taking priority over hers, is deeply rooted...

Of course is Chris O'Neill "entitled to decide"! He is the bread winner and she is a housewife! If *this* were the other way around, she would decide... But it isn't!

 

[xenobia]

I think that there might be another reason why Madeleine wants to move back to Sweden. Queen Silvia will turn 80 in December. The King is no youngster either, and had a health scare earlier this year (remember his heart surgery?). Even if they are ok right now, they are not getting any younger.

My parents are about the same age. I live just two hours from them, and I'm feeling more and more worried about them. They won't be around forever, and I want to spend more time with them. Perhaps Madeleine feels the same way about her parents.

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

He who pays the piper calls the tune. I have no doubt in Sweden that will be the in laws. Housing, schools, thats a lot of money. Not sure Chris is a breadwinner of that scale. The in laws may even pay for that already and in Sweden, Chris would be totally trapped by the in law family and the media.

 

[tommy100]

100% agree that her parents health will have paid a part in Madde wanting to come back home. Xenobia we are going through the same as a family with our grandparents and their siblings, all getting older and none of us feeling like we can be too far away. I can fully imagine Madde wanting to be closer to home to be with her parents at this point in their lives. And let's no forget that problems with the King's health also means more responsibilities for Vic who Madde seems close to.

 

[kalnel]

Unless the couple makes some kind of statement clarifying their thinking -- and why would they? -- we really don't know why they postponed the move. Could be anything.

I was just thinking about whether next year would be a more natural year to transfer the kids to a new school without too much disruption. Based on their ages, I would guess that Leonore, who is nine, is probably in fourth grade. Nicolas, who is eight, is probably in third grade. (Give or take a year, depending on what age they started.)

Neither would be likely to change schools for another few years here in the United States, but I wonder if next year might the age that Swedish students change schools.

 

[Silverpot]

Of course is Chris O'Neill "entitled to decide"! He is the bread winner and she is a housewife! If *this* were the other way around, she would decide... But it isn't!

I don't know how much money Chris is earning, but I do know that Madeleine is good for a substantial fortune and could easily support the family.

 

[Silverpot]

I think that there might be another reason why Madeleine wants to move back to Sweden. Queen Silvia will turn 80 in December. The King is no youngster either, and had a health scare earlier this year (remember his heart surgery?). Even if they are ok right now, they are not getting any younger.

My parents are about the same age. I live just two hours from them, and I'm feeling more and more worried about them. They won't be around forever, and I want to spend more time with them. Perhaps Madeleine feels the same way about her parents.

Yes, I think so too. And I also think that Madeleine feels it's important that her children have a closer relationship with their cousins. Chris' family is rather spread out around the globe, but M's family is a close knit unit, a good foundation for her kids.

 

[Somebody]

Unless the couple makes some kind of statement clarifying their thinking -- and why would they? -- we really don't know why they postponed the move. Could be anything.

I was just thinking about whether next year would be a more natural year to transfer the kids to a new school without too much disruption. Based on their ages, I would guess that Leonore, who is nine, is probably in fourth grade. Nicolas, who is eight, is probably in third grade. (Give or take a year, depending on what age they started.)

Neither would be likely to change schools for another few years here in the United States, but I wonder if next year might the age that Swedish students change schools.

Even if that would be true; that's something they should have considered before announcing their move. It's really the going back on forth on their announced plans about living or not living permanently or temporarily in Sweden (not just times but before as well) that makes them seem undecisive.