Princes and Princesses of Greece and Denmark?

[Melania]

Can someone tell me whether or not the Greek royal family are truly princes and princesses of Denmark, or are they just styles they enjoy? Do they truly enjoy the titles or do they just get to enjoy the luxury of using the styles? If so, then TRH Prince and Princess Pavlos (and their children), HRH Princess Alexia, HRH Nikolaos, HRH Princess Theodora, and HRH Prince Philippos are all royal princes and princesses of Denmark. Also, can someone tell me how long these titles can be hereditary (even their Greek titles too, how long can they continue being Greek royals of a country that claims to have no royalty)? Thanks if you can help.

 

[H.M. Margrethe]

Can someone tell me whether or not the Greek royal family are truly princes and princesses of Denmark, or are they just styles they enjoy? Do they truly enjoy the titles or do they just get to enjoy the luxury of using the styles? If so, then TRH Prince and Princess Pavlos (and their children), HRH Princess Alexia, HRH Nikolaos, HRH Princess Theodora, and HRH Prince Philippos are all royal princes and princesses of Denmark. Also, can someone tell me how long these titles can be hereditary? Thanks if you can help.

Well Melania when Prince Wilhelm became King Georg 1. of Greece his grandfather King Christian 9. of Denmark decide that King Georg and his descendant would be Princes and princesses of Denmark and Greece.
King Christian 9. knew that ther was problems in the Balkan area and wantet to give his grandchild and his descendant som safety her in Denmark.
I think that the Greek Royal Family truly like the titel because they are getting a closer tie to the Danish Royal Family.
Yes TRH Prince and Princess Pavlos (and their chrildren), HRH Princess Alexia, HRH Prince Nikolaos, HRH Princess Theodora and HRH Prince Philippos are all royal Princes and Princesses of Denmark and Greece.
I don´t know how long the titel can be hereditary in the family,but i think it migte become extinct if the last 3 children are going to be married into an ordinary family.

 

[Melania]

Thanks for your answer. Also, what would happen if their Greek titles become extinct? Would they still continue to carry on their Danish titles, or would they also become extinct? I am curious to know, when, for example, Crown Prince Pavlos visists Denmark, is he considered as much as a prince as Prince Joachim? Does he have the rights and enjoy all of the same privilages? Would he continue being a Prince of Denmark (even if he doesn't live there, nor speak Danish fluently) and would he continue to pass on the titles of Prince of Denmark to his sons and grandsons without the title of Prince of Greece? Is it sort of like the Hanovers that continue to claim to be Princes of Great Britain and Ireland, even though these are just styles and not titles that they use?

 

[norwegianne]

The Greek princes and princesses are not in line to the Danish throne, as Anne-Marie renounced her rights to it upon marriage with Constantine, so I wouldn't say that they were considered equal to the Danish princes and princesses in that regard.

 

[H.M. Margrethe]

The Greek princes and princesses are not in line to the Danish throne, as Anne-Marie renounced her rights to it upon marriage with Constantine, so I wouldn't say that they were considered equal to the Danish princes and princesses in that regard.

I think that the Danish court are finding the Greek Princes and Princesses are equal since the court still think that Konstantin and Anne-Marie still are King and Queen of Greece.

 

[Melania]

The Greek princes and princesses are not in line to the Danish throne, as Anne-Marie renounced her rights to it upon marriage with Constantine, so I wouldn't say that they were considered equal to the Danish princes and princesses in that regard.

That must be why she is not listed on the official Danish Monarchy website. Her sister is listed, but not her. I always wondered this and wondered why the Greek royal family was not on their website? I guess that was my question all along, why are the Greek royal family not on the website? I wish I could see them on there. I think their family would be so cute (especially Prince Pavlos and his family), and it would bring the family more attention and credibility (in the future, I guess) but they are not. Thanks for answering my question.

 

[fromEU]

That must be why she is not listed on the official Danish Monarchy website. Her sister is listed, but not her. I always wondered this and wondered why the Greek royal family was not on their website? I guess that was my question all along, why are the Greek royal family not on the website? I wish I could see them on there. I think their family would be so cute (especially Prince Pavlos and his family), and it would bring the family more attention and credibility (in the future, I guess) but they are not. Thanks for answering my question.

She is on the official Danish Monarchy website. She is just not among the links on the left.
The Royal House - see bottom
http://kongehuset.dk/artikel.php?dogtag=k_en_fam
HM Queen Anne-Marie - with link to the Greek website on the bottom
http://kongehuset.dk/artikel.php?dogtag=k_en_fam_ann

 

[eireann]

What will happen when King Konstantin dies? Will Pavlos become King of Greece???

 

[Mandy]

What will happen when King Konstantin dies? Will Pavlos become King of Greece???

There is a discussion thread in the Greek Forum that might answer your question: here

 

[Melania]

She is on the official Danish Monarchy website. She is just not among the links on the left.
The Royal House - see bottom
http://kongehuset.dk/artikel.php?dogtag=k_en_fam
HM Queen Anne-Marie - with link to the Greek website on the bottom
http://kongehuset.dk/artikel.php?dogtag=k_en_fam_ann

Thank you, I didn't see that. Also, I wonder if the family would be on there if Anne-Marie wasn't the Queen's sister? I wish the Greek family could be more closely linked to the Danish monarchy/ Danish royalty since they carry the titles of Princes and Princesses of Greece and Denmark. It would give us more Danish royals to follow. I like the Danish royal family for some reason.

 

[msleiman]

Greek Royal Family - Prince/Princess of Denmark

I was wondering why some if not all of the Greek Royal family carry the title of prince/princess of Denmark. Could someone explain why?

 

[norwegianne]

King George of Greece was born Prince Vilhelm/William of Denmark. As the Greek throne was viewed to be a "shaky" prospect, his descendants also are Prince/Princess of Denmark in addition to their Greek styles.

 

[auntie]

I think the titles of Greece and Denmark are honoury titles and not titles with much meaning, as they are not direct line to the throne nor on the Danish civil list etc.

 

[morhange]

BTW, here's Anne-Marie's profile: Kongehuset - Kongehuset The only link didn't work. I was wondering why it was just linked as 'Ann' when her name is AnnE, not to mention Anne-Marie! But I still wonder why Nikolai's URL is niColai.

 

[Philippe Egalite']

Well Melania when Prince Wilhelm became King Georg 1. of Greece his grandfather King Christian 9. of Denmark decide that King Georg and his descendant would be Princes and princesses of Denmark and Greece.

King Christian IX was not the grandfather but the father of prince Wilhelm, later king George I of the Hellenes.

Yes TRH Prince and Princess Pavlos (and their chrildren), HRH Princess Alexia, HRH Prince Nikolaos, HRH Princess Theodora and HRH Prince Philippos are all royal Princes and Princesses of Denmark and Greece.
I don´t know how long the titel can be hereditary in the family,but i think it migte become extinct if the last 3 children are going to be married into an ordinary family.

As of the time of the Succession Act of 1953, by which succession to the Danish Throne became limited only to descendants of King Christian X and Queen Alexandrine, king Constantine and other Greek royal personages, lost their succession rights to the Danish Throne. Further, in Denmark, those personages without rights to the Throne (ie without Rank) are not princes or princesses of (til) Denmark (ie they hold no legally or constitutionally backed title of prince/princess). However, because king Constantine was born a prince of (til) Denmark, since his birth (1940) occurred before the time of the Succession Act of 1953, he has retained (by permission) the constitutionally meaningless title of prince af Danmark.

In addition, Princess Anne-Marie had to resign and did resign her rights to the Throne by virtue of the fact that she was marrying a reigning foreign dynast, in contrast to, and distinction from, Princess Benedikte who retained her rights because she married a non-reigning and non-ruling foreign dynast.

Thus, in a strictly technical sense, king Constantine's children are not princes/princesses either til or af Danmark. However, I would have thought that, since the prince/ss af Danmark title is merely a matter of style and honorific, that is, not requiring legal or constitutional backing, it may be up to The Queen to style them as such, when she so decides, unless her government can legally oppose that.

She is on the official Danish Monarchy website. She is just not among the links on the left.
The Royal House - see bottom
http://kongehuset.dk/artikel.php?dogtag=k_en_fam
HM Queen Anne-Marie - with link to the Greek website on the bottom
http://kongehuset.dk/artikel.php?dogtag=k_en_fam_ann

Queen Anne-Marie is not a member of the Royal House of Denmark and is not quoted as such. She is however quoted as a member of the Royal Family (an entirely different issue) and I quote from the Website
"The Royal Family comprises Her Majesty The Queen’s relatives, including Her Majesty Queen Anne-Marie."
In other words, Queen Anne-Marie is a member of the Royal Family as it also applies to Counts/Countesses Rosenborg etc
Indeed, the Website makes the distinction between Royal House (constitutional status- State matter) and Royal Family (no constitutional status- private matter) crystal-clear.

 

[Melania]

I can't remember where I read it or the exact Danish terms, but I do remember the English translation of an article that I read. In fact, there is not real English transaltion because the terms aren't used in English.

Prince Frederik, his son, his brother, and his nephews are princes TO Denmark. Where as, the Greek royals are princes OF Denmark. If a prince is a prince TO Denmark, then he is in line to inherent the throne of Denmark. However, if a prince is a prince OF Denmark, then it is just a style used, a curtesy title.

If I come across the article that I read again, I will remember and come back and post the source. Maybe someone could help with the source? Thanks

 

[Jo of Palatine]

AFAIK king Constantine, queen Anne-Marie and their children plus family all have Danish diplomat's passports, thus their relationship to Denmark should be somehow official.

 

[JessRulz]

I can't remember where I read it or the exact Danish terms, but I do remember the English translation of an article that I read. In fact, there is not real English transaltion because the terms aren't used in English.

Prince Frederik, his son, his brother, and his nephews are princes TO Denmark. Where as, the Greek royals are princes OF Denmark. If a prince is a prince TO Denmark, then he is in line to inherent the throne of Denmark. However, if a prince is a prince OF Denmark, then it is just a style used, a curtesy title.

If I come across the article that I read again, I will remember and come back and post the source. Maybe someone could help with the source? Thanks

Yes, that is how there are styled on the Danish version of Kongehuset.dk - Princess Isabella and Princess Benedikte are also Princess to Denmark, while Crown Princess Mary is ... of Denmark. Like you said, the to means they are in line for the Danish throne

 

[Philippe Egalite']

Clarification

As discussed ad nauseam under this post and elsewhere, personages born Princes and Princesses of Denmark and retaining the Constitutional Right in the Line of Succession according to the 1953 Succession Act, are called Princes/Princesses TO (TIL) Denmark.
Prince Hendrik and Princess Mary are Prince/Princess OF (AF) Denmark. These titles have no constitutional backing, are titles by association (i.e. through marriage) and are usually good as long as the association is maintained. For example, the former Princess Alexandra ceased to be a Princess OF (AF) Denmark the moment she married again.

By the Succession Act of 1953, one may be born a prince/princess to Denmark but there is no provision for anyone getting born a prince/princess af Denmark. Therefore, prince/princess af Denmark by birthright does not exist.

When Danish Royal Personages cease to be princes/princesses to Denmark due to unequal marriage (prince Knud's sons, currently Counts Rosenborg) or marriage to a reigning foreign dynast at the time of the marriage (e.g. queen Anne-Marie), they lose the princely title altogether. Indeed, Queen Anne-Marie is neither a princess to nor a princess af Denmark anymore.

In the case of the members of the former royal family of Greece, king Constantine, queen Sofia of Spain, princess Yriny and prince Michael were all born princes/princesses to Denmark by virtue of:
1) their descent from King Christian IX, and
2) their birth having taken place before 1953,
and as such, after the passage of the 1953 Succession Act, limiting the Line of Succession to descendants of Christian X, they retained due to the special circumstances the honorific title prince/princess af Denmark [by the way, prince Michael would have lost his Danish title anyway due to having married unequally].

However, none of the above personages' children was born before 1953. And, since no one (by definition) can be born prince/princess af Denmark, the children of former king Constantine, queen Sofia and prince Michael are not princes/princesses either to or af Denmark.
Correctly so, the children of king Juan Carlos and queen Sofia are called:
Felipe Juan Pablo Alfonso de Todos los Santos de Borbon y Grecia (but never y Danimarca)
Elena María Isabel Dominica de Silos de Borbón y Grecia (but never y Danimarca)
Cristina Federica de Borbón y Grecia (but never y Danimarca)

The children of former king Constantine continue to use the of (af) Denmark which constitutes, at a minimum, an evasion of the Danish Constitution and protocol irregularity.

 

[MargreteI]

The children of Anne Marie could in theory take the throne of Denmark, because the Succession Act does not exclude anyone of the decrendant og Chr. IX and Alexandrine. Reardless what ever title they hold "to" "of" or nothing at all. Neighter does it say anything about the whole matter. It is short and simple.

§ 1. The throne is inherited down within king Christian X og Queen Alexandrines decrendant.​

§ 2. When a king dies the throne goes to his son or daughter, in such way that son before daughter, if there is more of same gender oldest before youngest. If one of the children dies, that persons children takes the place after the liniar rule and the in § 1 mentioned rules.​

§ 3. If a king dies without leaving direct heirs to the throne, the throne goes to his brother or sister, brother before sister. If there are more of same gender or someone have dies the rules in § 2 is to be used.​

§ 4. If there are no direct heir to the throne according to § 2 and 3 the throne goes to the nearest sideline amongst the decendant of King Christian X and Queen Alexandrine according to the liniar rule, brother before sister and older before younger as set in § 2 and 3.​

§ 5. Only children born in legal marriage can inheritage the throne.​

The kings marriage has to have the parliaments aproval.​

If one in line to the throne marries without the kings approval that person lose the right to the throne for him/her self and his/her children. .​

§ 6. The rules in § 2-5 also applies if the king renounce the throne.​

§ 7. This law enters into force on5. juni 1953.​

.

 

[Philippe Egalite']

The children of Anne Marie could in theory take the throne of Denmark, because the Succession Act does not exclude anyone of the decrendant og Chr. IX and Alexandrine. Reardless what ever title they hold "to" "of" or nothing at all. Neighter does it say anything about the whole matter. It is short and simple.

§ 1. The throne is inherited down within king Christian X og Queen Alexandrines decrendant.​

§ 2. When a king dies the throne goes to his son or daughter, in such way that son before daughter, if there is more of same gender oldest before youngest. If one of the children dies, that persons children takes the place after the liniar rule and the in § 1 mentioned rules.​

§ 3. If a king dies without leaving direct heirs to the throne, the throne goes to his brother or sister, brother before sister. If there are more of same gender or someone have dies the rules in § 2 is to be used.​

§ 4. If there are no direct heir to the throne according to § 2 and 3 the throne goes to the nearest sideline amongst the decendant of King Christian X and Queen Alexandrine according to the liniar rule, brother before sister and older before younger as set in § 2 and 3.​

§ 5. Only children born in legal marriage can inheritage the throne.​

The kings marriage has to have the parliaments aproval.​

If one in line to the throne marries without the kings approval that person lose the right to the throne for him/her self and his/her children. .​

§ 6. The rules in § 2-5 also applies if the king renounce the throne.​

§ 7. This law enters into force on5. juni 1953.​

.

You are wrong. HRH The Princess Anne-Marie resigned her rights to the Danish Throne immediately before her marriage to King Constantine by virtue of the fact that, although she married with her father's consent, she was to become the consort of a reigning/ruling foreign dynast.
Thus, her children have no right whatsoever to raise any claims to the Danish Throne.

For historical reasons, be advised that Princess Benedikte retained her rights to the Line of Succession because, even though she married a foreign dynast, her husband was not ruling/reigning.

 

[MargreteI]

You are wrong. HRH The Princess Anne-Marie resigned her rights to the Danish Throne immediately before her marriage to King Constantine by virtue of the fact that, although she married with her father's consent, she was to become the consort of a reigning/ruling foreign dynast.
Thus, her children have no right whatsoever to raise any claims to the Danish Throne.

For historical reasons, be advised that Princess Benedikte retained her rights to the Line of Succession because, even though she married a foreign dynast, her husband was not ruling/reigning.

She resigned her claim to the throne, thus she can not claim it. However she is still not completely excluded according to the Succession Act, because she is a decrendant of Christian X and Alexandrine.

The Succession Act is quite short, simple and easy to understand.

Actually there is not much that can be misunderstood.

.

 

[Philippe Egalite']

She resigned her claim to the throne, thus she can not claim it. However she is still not completely excluded according to the Succession Act, because she is a decrendant of Christian X and Alexandrine.

Being a descendant of king Christian X and Queen Alexandrine may qualify someone for inheritance of the Throne of Denmark, but under conditions. For example, the two sons of prince Knud were excluded and were stripped of the rank and title as princes of Denmark because of unequal marriages and without the consent of the monarch.
And I quote from Wikipedia,
" Further, when approving a marriage, the monarch can impose conditions that must be met in order for any resulting offspring to have succession rights. Part II, Section 9 of the Danish Constitution of 5 June 1953 provides that the parliament will elect a king and determine a new line of succession should a situation arise where there are no eligible descendants of King Christian X and Queen Alexandrine."
And further down from the same article in Wikipedia,
"Queen Margrethe II's youngest sister, Princess Anne Marie, married King Constantine II of Greece in 1964. In view of the fact that she was marrying a foreign ruler, King Frederik IX decided that neither Anne Marie nor her children would have any right to the Danish throne."

Therefore, queen Anne-Marie and her descendants cannot inherit the Danish Throne either in theory or in practice!

 

[MargreteI]

Therefore, queen Anne-Marie and her descendants cannot inherit the Danish Throne either in theory or in practice!

The Constitution § 9 only states that if there is no heir and the throne is vacant, the parliament elects a new king and sets forth the new line of succesion. That applies if the possibilities according to the Succession act has dried out. Meaning, that there are no available heirs according to §§ 1-7 of the Succession Act. Meaning they can elect Anne Marie if they want to.

Furthermore and quite disturbing Anne Marie is an heir according to the succession act, because she did not marry without the state councils consent (king). Yes, there were conditions made, that she signed before her marriage, but if you read the succession act carefully word by word, it should be obvious, that a) the act does not explicitly state that consent to marriage can be made conditional, and b) it does not state that conditions can be required to be fulfilled in order to maintain succession rights.

So how was she deprived of succession rights, she without a doubt had according to a constitutional document ?

The state council (king) gave conditional consent to her marriage without having any legal foundation to do so. The succession act have a status of constitutional document and it needs the same procedures for change as the constitution, should they wish to make conditional consent part of the succession act.

The essense of what you say is, that Anne Marie was deprived of her succession rights by a state council (king) making conditions – but they can not do that, not without going through the formal procedure of a constitutional change laid out in the constitution §88.

In theory it is much worse then just being able to inherit the throne. In theory she can create a crisis tomorrow, if she decides to take the state coucils conditional consent to her marriage in front of the constitutional court to have it rendered unconstitutional.

Well, that is a constitutional problem and I can not take credit for figuring it out it. Constitutional scholars did, but the implications are obvious allthough they will never become real life matters.


.

 

[royalgibraltar29]

I really which that would move back 2 Greece and do there offical duties,

i love the Greek royal family.They should go back Greece is a wonderful country,they desreve there fantastic Royal family.

Who thinks the same as i do.

 

[Lilla]

Well, that is a constitutional problem and I can not take credit for figuring it out it. Constitutional scholars did, but the implications are obvious allthough they will never become real life matters. .

Anyway - thank a lot Margrete I for your very interesting analysis.

 

[Philippe Egalite']

Furthermore and quite disturbing Anne Marie is an heir according to the succession act, because she did not marry without the state councils consent (king). Yes, there were conditions made, that she signed before her marriage, but if you read the succession act carefully word by word, it should be obvious, that a) the act does not explicitly state that consent to marriage can be made conditional, and b) it does not state that conditions can be required to be fulfilled in order to maintain succession rights.

1. Your analyses are always extremely thorough and scholarly and I am very grateful for that.

2. So, if I understand it correctly, the crux of the issue is that the Danish sovereign can either give or refuse to give consent to a royal marriage, but there is no such entity as conditional consent with respect to the royal's right of inheritance.
In this case, I wonder, why did her father do that considering that he was the "mentor" [along the Government] of the Succession Act. Did he do it because he wanted to somewhat "appease" the Knud family and appear impartial or some other reason?

 

[Jo of Palatine]

1. Your analyses are always extremely thorough and scholarly and I am very grateful for that.

2. So, if I understand it correctly, the crux of the issue is that the Danish sovereign can either give or refuse to give consent to a royal marriage, but there is no such entity as conditional consent with respect to the royal's right of inheritance.
In this case, I wonder, why did her father do that considering that he was the "mentor" [along the Government] of the Succession Act. Did he do it because he wanted to somewhat "appease" the Knud family and appear impartial or some other reason?

I think at that time it was a worrying thought that the firstborn grandchild of the king would most probably be a Greek prince or princess. So they were probably looking for a solution when it came to the line of succession - and the renouncing of inheritance rights by the bride is a very common occurance in history. I doubt that worried much about the consitutional background because that could have been remedied fast enough if necessary. But the signal was clear: there would be no double crown of Greece and Denmark, no matter what.

 

[Philippe Egalite']

Extremely interesting. Thank you, Jo.

 

[bbb]

ABC News: Great Danes: The Geography of Happiness

i was watching a show 20/20 last night in the USA. it was on the equation of happiness. it was very informative and interesting. they had on the program a "prince of denmark", Josef Bourbon( see the photo in the article) the interview was in what looked to be a barn or wood working shop. this young man has chosen to make furniture even though he lived in a castle (then showed the castle) it didn't look familar. I had never seen this young man before, he was handsome, blond, good personality and i'd say early 20's, maybe. i've been searching the treads and i can't find anything about him. i assumed he was a grandson to either benedikte or anne-marie as i know i've never seen him before i am very curious who he is. at one point the interviewer asked him if being a prince makes it easier to meet girls- he said he never tells anyone, and i quote "it seems to work out better if they find out on their own". did anyone else see the program and wonder who he was?. Thanks in advance for any help. btw he was very very cute and had a great personality, IF he is a prince of denmark it's a shame we don't see more of him. the reason he was in the show is a portion was dedicated to denmark- "the happiest country in the world' by the shows producers. it was really cool.
*quote from article "Bourbon is another example of Denmark's unusual social structure, because he happens to be a prince. Descended from a Danish king and related to the royal houses of both Spain and France, Bourbon has chosen to be a carpenter's apprentice, and he rarely discusses his lineage with anyone"