Nikolai and Felix: Future Possibilities and Options

[Josefine]

i do not think they will take on a big royal role when they are grown up

 

[btsnyder]

So, when Nikolai and Felix marry, will their spouses adapt their husband's style of highness? Will they become HH Princess (insert name here) of Denmark? Is there any precedent in this area? I don't recall any grandson or nephew of the monarch in the male line in Denmark marrying - much less a commoner - in the last century or so - excpet maybe Prince Viggo, who married Eleonora Green - was she then Countess Elenora of Rosenborg? isn't it confusing having all these Rosenborgs running around?

 

[Stefan]

So, when Nikolai and Felix marry, will their spouses adapt their husband's style of highness? Will they become HH Princess (insert name here) of Denmark? Is there any precedent in this area? I don't recall any grandson or nephew of the monarch in the male line in Denmark marrying - much less a commoner - in the last century or so - excpet maybe Prince Viggo, who married Eleonora Green - was she then Countess Elenora of Rosenborg? isn't it confusing having all these Rosenborgs running around?

If they will mary with the Consent of the Monarch given in the Council of State their respective Consorts will become HH Princess of Denmark. One example is Prince Axel, son of Prince Vlademar who was married to HRH Princess Margaretha of Sweden. He was even a HRH as King Christian IX. gave the style of HRH to the children of Prince Valdemar on 05.02.1904. The oldest son of Axel and Margaretha, Prince Georg married also with Consent the Hon. Anne Bowes-Lyon (a niece of Queen Elizabeth, the Queenmother) and she became HH Princess Anne of Denmark after the marriage.

 

[Tricota]

Isnt it likely that one of them will take over Schaekenborg, and the other will probably end up with a "normal" job?....Especially if Joachim has more children...

Or perhaps he will leave the estate to Frederik and Marys second child, as it seams a good fit for the "sub" king....

 

[Philippe Egalite']

To Fireweaver: HRH Princess Benedikte did not get downgraded because she is the child of King Frederik IX and she maintained her place in the succesion.

This is not quite the correct answer. Princess Anne-Marie, despite the fact that she was(is) teh daughter of a monarch and, even though she married with her father's permission, she lost her rights of Succession and ceased altogether to be a princess of Denmark in view of the fact that she married a ruling foreign dynast.
Princess Bebedikte on the other hand married with her father's permission a non-ruling foreign dynast, and as such she was allowed to maintain her succession rights and princely status. Her children, however, lost their rights or never acquired ones, because they were not raised as Danes and did not become Danish citizens by age 18.

 

[MargreteI]

Felix and Nikolaj are sure to be demoted when they marry. I am sure of that.

They are not the children of a king and the monarchy does not need them and they are not likely to receive an apanage and there is no need for them to reproduce little princes and prinsesses to roam around as ordinary people.

The royal family is kept small and exlusive.

I think it is also a benefit to them that this is the norm in Denmark. They become ordinary people, though most likely a part of the elite. Nevertheless they are more free without the title then with the title.

.

 

[Philippe Egalite']

Felix and Nikolaj are sure to be demoted when they marry. I am sure of that.

They are not the children of a king and the monarchy does not need them and they are not likely to receive an apanage and there is no need for them to reproduce little princes and prinsesses to roam around as ordinary people.

The royal family is kept small and exlusive.

I think it is also a benefit to them that this is the norm in Denmark. They become ordinary people, though most likely a part of the elite. Nevertheless they are more free without the title then with the title.

Well, the Queen has done that already. They two boys are HH and not HRH. They are princes but notroyal princes, meaning that they are not members of the inner Royal House. However, they may not be further demoted. According to the 1953 Succession Act, either you are or you are not in the Line of Succession and if you are then you are also a prince/ss. Conversely, once one loses one's rights in the Line of Succession, he/she automatically ceases to be a prince/ss. Thus, these boys may only cease to be princes if they marry without the monarch's permission. If they play by the rules, no one can further demote them.
I do agree, however, that they will never receive an apanage and [thus] they won't be required to do royal work.
Needless to say that their children (ie the children of HHs) will be neither royal nor princes/esses. And this is appropriate. That ridiculous thing that has been going on for centuries in many central European principalities where the great-great-great grand children keep calling themselves fraudulently princes and princesses ought to stop. After all, some 10-12 generations back we all Europeans or people of European descent have some princely or royal blood.

 

[RubyPrincess168]

Isnt it likely that one of them will take over Schaekenborg, and the other will probably end up with a "normal" job?....Especially if Joachim has more children.....

This would be my prediction. One takes over the farm/estate and one embarks on a military career.

 

[CasiraghiTrio]

So Schackenborg is Prince Joachim's private estate, therefore it is not part of the Crown Estate (or Danish equivalent)? I don't remember if he owns this privately or just leases from the Crown? Of course, either way, I do not see why not he can pass it onto his sons or one of them, because one of them, or both, can probably inherit the lease rights, if they really want it. I don't know if I'm making sense.

BTW, I do remember that now, since the separation, the boys' maternal grandparents, or at least their grandmother, is living near Alexandra in or just outside Copenhagen. Although their maternal grandma is Austrian, isn't their grandpa part British and part Chinese? They have such wonderfully exotic heritage: quarter British-Chinese, quarter Austrian on mother's side, and quarter Danish, quarter French on father's side, and now their stepmother is native Parisian, stepfather I guess he's Danish, right?

 

[RubyPrincess168]

I believe Joachim owns Schackenborg outright. I thought I read it somewhere around here that he was left the estate in the will of a heirless man when he was 9 years old. It must have been somewhat of a comfort knowing he had that.

 

[Tricota]

I believe Joachim owns Schackenborg outright. I thought I read it somewhere around here that he was left the estate in the will of a heirless man when he was 9 years old. It must have been somewhat of a comfort knowing he had that.

That is corect. Joachim owns the estate and as such, I asume that he can leave it to one of the boys, though things may be more complicated then that, if he has more children. Agewise children born within the next 5 years, are perhaps more likely to one day take over the estate....

As for grandparrents, I asume we are talking about Alexandra's parents, they are as far as I know, still living in one of the old houses at Schackenborg and has said that they have no wish to move. And Joachim seams to be happy with that arengement aswell.

 

[lyndaW]

Other than the farm Schackenborg what other properties does Joachim own? Did he and his other 4-farming partners buy some land in France ??

 

[rylt11]

I believe that Alexandra's parents are no longer living on the grounds of the Schackenborg estate. They moved before his marriage to Marie.

At the time of the engagement interview, a reporter asked about their living arrangements, and Joachim answered that there was no rush for them to leave, no pushing of any kind, but that they had plans to live elsewhere. He is such a gentleman, so fair. At least that is how he comes across in interviews.

I know that there were things said to the contrary about him before the divorce from Alexandra became final, but he seems to be eloquent and caring in his English-speaking interviews.

 

[lyndaW]

If you think about it, how many men would have their X-inlaws continue to live with him after he seperated from and received a divorce from their daughter, and continued to support them until his re-marriage.
He must be a remarkable and kind man.
Always willing to do his Royal duties and do them very well with little fan fare and little (media) appreciation

 

[rylt11]

I agree. Joachim has a very special air about him - he is so attentive to Marie, careful to lend a hand or arm for support, handling the press in a gentle way when she is overwhelmed, gracious to his ex-in-laws, greets his ex-wife with a friendly peck on the cheeks, in a natural way.

He is what one would expect in a prince, a gentleman with an air of grace and kindness. I'm very glad that he has been able to have a second chance at a loving family life once again.

 

[lyndaW]

I agree. Joachim has a very special air about him - he is so attentive to Marie, careful to lend a hand or arm for support, handling the press in a gentle way when she is overwhelmed, gracious to his ex-in-laws, greets his ex-wife with a friendly peck on the cheeks, in a natural way.

He is what one would expect in a prince, a gentleman with an air of grace and kindness. I'm very glad that he has been able to have a second chance at a loving family life once again.

It was be dreadful to be the Second/Spare in everything. It evens appears he comes in Second with his family and he frequently not invited to family get togethers, yet he doesn't appear to resent this and is always gracious and well mannered. He and his Brother (during his marriage to Alex) were always sooo close, and Fred was close to Nikolai & Felix--the five of them did a lot of things togeether,

 

[rylt11]

I guess things change with circumstances. I, for one, think that Joachim acts more princely than Frederick most of the time. He is more elegant, listens to others with a tilt of the head, or really listening with his eyes.

Fred seems to be all fun most of the time. Not a bad thing, but just not too impressive.

It's a shame that they do not give Joachim and Marie more of the limelight, but perhaps Marie prefers it this way, too, and would not be as happy with too much exposure to the press, etc. I think they look very well together, and she seems to be fitting better and better into her role as princess.

 

[lyndaW]

I guess things change with circumstances. I, for one, think that Joachim acts more princely than Frederick most of the time. He is more elegant, listens to others with a tilt of the head, or really listening with his eyes.

Fred seems to be all fun most of the time. Not a bad thing, but just not too impressive.

It's a shame that they do not give Joachim and Marie more of the limelight, but perhaps Marie prefers it this way, too, and would not be as happy with too much exposure to the press, etc. I think they look very well together, and she seems to be fitting better and better into her role as princess.

Also Joachim is "really" into Danish culture (past & present).......didn't he "donate" an old barn at his Schackenborg Estate to become (with a government grant) a Cultural Center for the Arts which would make his part of Jutland a more interesting tourist area ?? I'll try and find the newspaper article from Jutland

 

[rylt11]

I didn't know anything about that donation. What a wonderful, innovative idea.

 

[IloveCP]

I see them getting careers but still doing some royal duties.

 

[Viv]

I see them getting careers too! We can't rule out a couple of royal duties but IMHO they will be very limited! With four kids in the main branch of the family there won't be much use for extra hands. The only thing that could work in Nikolai's favour is that he had the privilege of being the first royal kid of the Frederik/Joachim generation! At the end of the day however I'm afraid that princes Nikolai and Felix will fade further into the background!

Viv

 

[Grandduchess24]

They would get royal duties like other royals and have to attend events by themselves or with their parents or even represent their grandmother or uncle Frederik at an event.

 

[Somebody]

What are the current thoughts now Nikolai has turned 18; and the Queen has 8 grandchildren, 4 by each son?

My guess would be that Joachim's children remain princes and princess, however, they won't have a very active royal role; maybe showing up once in a while, but having a normal career as their primary occupation (they could look to the Netherlands for this construction where that even applies to the King's brother)

Well, the Queen has done that already. They two boys are HH and not HRH. They are princes but notroyal princes, meaning that they are not members of the inner Royal House. However, they may not be further demoted. According to the 1953 Succession Act, either you are or you are not in the Line of Succession and if you are then you are also a prince/ss. Conversely, once one loses one's rights in the Line of Succession, he/she automatically ceases to be a prince/ss. Thus, these boys may only cease to be princes if they marry without the monarch's permission. If they play by the rules, no one can further demote them.
I do agree, however, that they will never receive an apanage and [thus] they won't be required to do royal work.
Needless to say that their children (ie the children of HHs) will be neither royal nor princes/esses. And this is appropriate. That ridiculous thing that has been going on for centuries in many central European principalities where the great-great-great grand children keep calling themselves fraudulently princes and princesses ought to stop. After all, some 10-12 generations back we all Europeans or people of European descent have some princely or royal blood.

Does the requirement to be a prince(ss) of Denmark to be in line to the throne still apply after the changes made to allow for equal primogeniture?

I don't expect Joachim's future grandchildren to be princes and princesses of Denmark; at least the children by his sons will be Counts of Monpezat; and those by Athena will most likely take their father's surname. However, I had no idea of the link between 'succession rights' and 'title', so I wonder whether they would indeed not be awarded succession rights (even while their marriages will most likely be approved as marrying a commoner is no longer a prohibiting factor).

 

[Tatiana Maria]

According to the 1953 Succession Act, either you are or you are not in the Line of Succession and if you are then you are also a prince/ss.

The Act of Succession does not state anything about royal titles and styles or membership of the Royal House; it merely stipulates that a person who is in the line of succession shall lose their place if they marry without the consent of the Queen.

Folketinget - The Constitutional Act of Denmark

§ 5
(1) Only children born in lawful wedlock are entitled to succeed to the throne.
(2) The King or the reigning Queen shall not marry without the consent of the Folketing.
(3) If a person who is entitled to succeed to the throne decides to marry without the King’s or reigning Queen’s consent which shall be given during a meeting of the Council of State, he/she forfeits his/her right to succeed to the throne and so do his/her children born in lawful wedlock and their issue.

After 1853, all of the persons entitled to succeed to the throne and consorts thereof have been Princes(ses) of Denmark and members of the Royal House, other than Princess Benedikte's husband, who refused the title of Prince of Denmark, and her children, whose place in the succession was dependent on being raised in Denmark, but were raised in Germany.

(even while their marriages will most likely be approved as marrying a commoner is no longer a prohibiting factor).

While it is no longer a factor for princes, it appears that the tradition of princesses being deprived of their titles if they marry a commoner has not been overturned yet.

Summary of an interview with Princess Elisabeth to BB on the occasion of her upcoming birthday.
Interviewer: Anna Johannesen.

[…]

She lived with the film photographer, Claus Hermansen, for more than twenty years, until his death in 1997. They never got marries:

[…]

Q: You (informal you) were very fond of Claus. Why didn't you marry?
[Princess Elisabeth]: "Then I'd become Mrs. Hermansen and that we both thought was a bit silly considering that we were not to have any children. That was a decision we both agreed on".

http://www.theroyalforums.com/forum...s-part-1-april-2004-a-2075-4.html#post1777071

 

[Somebody]

The Act of Succession does not state anything about royal titles and styles or membership of the Royal House; it merely stipulates that a person who is in the line of succession shall lose their place if they marry without the consent of the Queen.

Folketinget - The Constitutional Act of Denmark




After 1853, all of the persons entitled to succeed to the throne and consorts thereof have been Princes(ses) of Denmark and members of the Royal House, other than Princess Benedikte's husband, who refused the title of Prince of Denmark, and her children, whose place in the succession was dependent on being raised in Denmark, but were raised in Germany.



While it is no longer a factor for princes, it appears that the tradition of princesses being deprived of their titles if they marry a commoner has not been overturned yet.

http://www.theroyalforums.com/forum...s-part-1-april-2004-a-2075-4.html#post1777071

Thanks! That is helpful. It seemed strange; so, the conclusion is that so far those in line to the throne have been princes (and more recently princesses) of Denmark, but that is not a requirement.

However, isn't the issue regarding princess more that there haven't been situations in the last few decades in which a Danish princess wished to marry a commoner (the Queen had 2 sons, had she had a daughter I am quite sure she would not have lost her title - her husband probably wouldn't have gotten one either, but that's a different question).

I would guess that the Danish people would consider it extremely unfair if for example princess Isabella would be stripped of her title (and loose succession rights) for marrying a commoner, while both Christian and Vincent can do as they please and still remain princes (and in line of succession). Apparently, that was not yet the perception in the 70's, but Elisabeth was never really considered for succession (it was to avoid her brothers succeeding that the rules were changed), so no need to keep her title if she would marry. A lot has changed over the last 40 years...

 

[tommy100]

Surely, as all the current "Princesses" are born of prince/commoner parents it would be close to impossible to expect them to marry commoners and give up their titles? It would certainly make Denmark one of the most "backwards" in this regard in Europe.

Out of interest, is it a certainty that Nikolai and Felix's wives would get titles when/if they marry? I assume they would by the convention of a wife holding the female equivalent of her husbands titles but could the Queen say no to this and really limit the HH Prince/Princess to just Joachims children and not in-laws?

One thing is for sure when all the children have grown into adults the line of succession may run a little longer than it did when I started following the DRF (when there were just 6 people)

 

[Tatiana Maria]

I would guess that the Danish people would consider it extremely unfair if for example princess Isabella would be stripped of her title (and loose succession rights) for marrying a commoner, while both Christian and Vincent can do as they please and still remain princes (and in line of succession). Apparently, that was not yet the perception in the 70's, but Elisabeth was never really considered for succession (it was to avoid her brothers succeeding that the rules were changed), so no need to keep her title if she would marry. A lot has changed over the last 40 years...

I also hope that that will be the case in the future. But Mr. Hermansen remained the partner of Princess Elisabeth through 1997 when he passed away, and therefore it seems that as recently as 20 years ago the Queen would not give her consent to allow the princess to maintain her title and succession rights upon marriage to a commoner.

Out of interest, is it a certainty that Nikolai and Felix's wives would get titles when/if they marry? I assume they would by the convention of a wife holding the female equivalent of her husbands titles but could the Queen say no to this and really limit the HH Prince/Princess to just Joachims children and not in-laws?

She could say no to a title indeed. At the press conference on his engagement to Marie Cavallier, Prince Joachim stated that Ms. Cavallier's future title of Princess was the decision of the Queen.

 

[Somebody]

I also hope that that will be the case in the future. But Mr. Hermansen remained the partner of Princess Elisabeth through 1997 when he passed away, and therefore it seems that as recently as 20 years ago the Queen would not give her consent to allow the princess to maintain her title and succession rights upon marriage to a commoner.

She could say no to a title indeed. At the press conference on his engagement to Marie Cavallier, Prince Joachim stated that Ms. Cavallier's future title of Princess was the decision of the Queen.

Interesting. At least their future wives would be countesses of Monpezat.

I am not sure that princess Elisabeth actively pursued the idea after the 70's... Of course Bertim and Lilian ended up marrying after a long time, but that situation was different in that Bertil did not marry out of duty (so he could be a regent if needed). Because the child-bearing age had passed, princess Elisabeth preferred her title over a marriage (although she does want to be buried next to her partner!), so less of a reason to change the rules for a cousin that is not that important to the line of succession nor in a reward for her services towards the Queen. Joachim was a different case as the second son of the queen and the first to get married!

 

[Stefan]

Could it have to do something with the nationality. I remember for the Queen it was quiet imprtant that her sonds did not marry danish girls. So far the marraiges of Princes who where approived have not been to danish nationals.

 

[Lisele]

Could it have to do something with the nationality. I remember for the Queen it was quiet imprtant that her sonds did not marry danish girls. So far the marraiges of Princes who where approived have not been to danish nationals.

That's interesting. I would have thought that HM Queen Margrethe II would have preferred Danish girls but is open to anyone that her sons would fall in love with and marry. Why is that do you think?
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