New Titles for Queen Margrethe's Descendants: 2008 & 2022, 2024


If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
Monarchs of other countries will be watching and taking note, although every individual situation is different. It all went much better in Sweden, and the lesson seems to be to discuss it with those affected first and try to reach some sort of agreement. But it’s going to be very difficult if those affected want to keep their titles.
 
i am surprised this is happening, because the DRF always seemed to be such a close tight knit family. suddenly, it is as if they are/were not and J&M are doing a sussex style scandal, that is unnecessary to have in public. these things should be treated internally!

we will never know the queen's decisions for this, aside from streamlining the monarchy, but it is most odd that only J&M and their family are impacted. what about princess benedikte, and frederik's kids, aside from christian? it seems very targetted i must admit.

But Isabella, Vincent, and Josephine are not in the same position as their cousins. They are now grandkids of the Monarch, but in the future they will be children of the Monarch (Frederik). They will be in the same position as Joachim is now, and his title has not changed. Benedikte is the original Joachim, child of a monarch (Frederik IX).
 
In the USA news past 24 hrs two related articles.

First one on QMII making a public apology but keeping firm stance this is a step looking forward into the future. I assume to help future King Frederick have an easy transition when the time comes for him to take over:

Source NBC News:
Danish queen 'sorry' after stripping grandchildren of their royal titles

Second article Source Newsweek:
This one ties the QMII news to her cousin, King Charles III similar situation and points her decision as precedent for her cousin to follow.

Can I ask a favor on comments? Because the article below includes the situation of two specific members of the UK family, please, please, please stay within thread topic since the article itself relates to comparing decisions, not individuals.
Thanks! :flowers:

Danish Queen Serves as Warning for King Charles

Sadly none of this has helped Frederik (or Mary who is getting dragged). In fact, MAYBE this SHOULD have been left for Frederik to handle as he IMO has more tact, awareness and empathy and would have handled this better.

As for others taking note...well, note should be taken of the consequences of how you treat your children and grandchildren.

Monarchs of other countries will be watching and taking note, although every individual situation is different. It all went much better in Sweden, and the lesson seems to be to discuss it with those affected first and try to reach some sort of agreement. But it’s going to be very difficult if those affected want to keep their titles.

In Sweden, the King did not strip the Prince/Princess titles only the HH/HRH styling. The kids of Carl-Phillip and Madeleine are still titled Prince/Princess. Plus, it appears he took the time to get buy-in from the affected parties prior to making any announcement...he did not do it arbitrarily. Also, when the announcement was made CP and Madeleine also released statements supporting the decision..THAT is how you inform and involved someone in the process.
 
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But Isabella, Vincent, and Josephine are not in the same position as their cousins. They are now grandkids of the Monarch, but in the future they will be children of the Monarch (Frederik). They will be in the same position as Joachim is now, and his title has not changed. Benedikte is the original Joachim, child of a monarch (Frederik IX).



I heard an argument recently for how to think about this that stuck with me and I wish I had grabbed the source so I could credit them. It argued for what it called a “siblings not cousins” rule for Prince/Princess titles.

The argument was basically that it should be limited to those who are the children of a monarch/sibling of a future monarch. So for example, in the UK, Prince Harry would keep his Prince title because he is the son of the King and the brother to the future king. But his children would not be titled that way because they are at one further remove- they are grandchildren of a king and cousin to a future king.

Under that logic, George, Charlotte and Louis would all be styled as Prince/Princess and George’s future kids would get that title but Charlotte and Louis’s future kids would not.

It made sense to me, and I see similar logic here in Denmark- maybe a future where Isabella, Josephine and Vincent retain their titles but their future children do not get them.

I think that’s the direction all the royal families seem to be going in. It’s just a shame it’s so acrimonious.
 
No, that was the proposal in May. A proposal Joachim himself has said he asked for time to think over. Though he has failed to elaborate on whether or not he ever returned his feedback.

A proposal that makes no sense. Not sure where the Queen or her people got the idea of stripping somebody of their titles at 25. There's no precedent to this.

In Sweden, the King did not strip the Prince/Princess titles only the HH/HRH styling. The kids of Carl-Phillip and Madeleine are still titled Prince/Princess. Plus, it appears he took the time to get buy-in from the affected parties prior to making any announcement...he did not do it arbitrarily. Also, when the announcement was made CP and Madeleine also released statements supporting the decision..THAT is how you inform and involved someone in the process.

Yes, it only goes to show that there is proper communication in the SRF. Or was it smoother in Sweden since the kids were still fairly young that time. Princess Leonore, the oldest was just 5 in 2019. I mean, compared to Nikolai and Felix who were able to use their princely names for work.
 
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A proposal that makes no sense. Not sure where the Queen or her people got the idea of stripping somebody of their titles at 25. There's no precedent to this.



Yes, it only goes to show that there is proper communication in the SRF. Or was it smoother in Sweden since the kids were still fairly young that time. Princess Leonore, the oldest was just 5 in 2019. I mean, compared to Nikolai and Felix who were able to use their princely names for work.

That is why this decision makes zero sense and makes the Queen look like she just woke up on a power trip and started taking titles away willy nilly. IF this had been an announcement of "going forward" that would have been different. The 4 grandkids keep their titles BUT their children would be count/countess "de Monpezat" PLUS they could have even added that their children's children would ONLY be "de Monpezat" WITHOUT the count/countess title. If that makes sense. It would be a gradual stripping of titles the further down the line. In essence, that would also most likely happen with the CP children as well in the future with maybe exceptions made IF the individual decided to take on royal duties THEN they would be Prince/Princess WITHOUT the HH/HRH.

BUT coming up with any form of creative plan would actually take time. It would also take patience which QMII has clearly stated she does not have when it comes to children.

However, the argument this was done to make things better for those 4 individuals...don't buy it. Take the heat off Frederik? Don't buy it either given he and Mary are now dragged into the middle of this and are getting trashed by some for something they had zero to do with as far as we know at this point.

But the optic of a smiling, happy, not a care in the world QMII while her son says he's hurt and hasn't heard from her is not very appealing tbh. And yeah, I know...we only know one side, etc. However, her statement stating she had no idea they would react this way tells me she made a unilateral decision on her own. And my continued question(s) as to why amongst others have still not been answered.
 
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"No comment," Prince Joachim told BT when BT royal correspondent Jacob Heinel Jensen asked him if he and his mother, Queen Margrethe II, had spoken since Monday's press release.

https://www.bt.dk/royale/bt-moeder-...sker-ikke-at-kommentere-dronningens-udmelding

50.6% responded in a new poll that the Queen's decision to withdraw the titles of Prince Joachim's sons is good, while 23.2% are against it.

https://www.seoghoer.dk/kongelige/efter-titelfratagelsen-flertal-af-danskere-enige-med-dronningen
 
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But the optic of a smiling, happy, not a care in the world QMII while her son says he's hurt and hasn't heard from her is not very appealing tbh.

The comment about smiling Queen while her son is hurt is so primitive and so out of context.
When you go to a funeral and express your condolence to the grieving family, they usually thank you with a smile. Does that smile make them ice cold and evil, does it mean they never cared about the deceased?

Joachim is not the head of a country nor will he ever be. Neither will his children. And they all know that. They don't have to think about the future of the monarchy and they most certainly don't think. They have less obligations and less expectations. They don't have to adapt themselves to those obligations and expectations as much as the Queen, Frederik and Christian have to. Joachim's children are not even going to be working royals at all.
Their only prerogative is the wellbeing of themselves. While the Queen, Frederik and Christian don't have that comodity.
Sometimes duty has to be first, self second. Margrethe is firstly queen, and mother and grandmother secondly. It's cruel to her family members (remember Frederik and Joachim's comments about their time together with the young queen when then they were little boys), but that's how things are.
 
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The comment about smiling Queen while her son is hurt is so primitive and so out of context.
When you go to a funeral and express your condolence to the grieving family, they usually thank you with a smile. Does that smile make them ice cold and evil, does it mean they never cared about the deceased?

Joachim is not the head of a country nor will he ever be. Neither will his children. And they all know that. They don't have to think about the future of the monarchy and they most certainly don't think. They have less obligations and less expectations. They don't have to adapt themselves to those obligations and expectations as much as the Queen, Frederik and Christian have to. Joachim's children are not even going to be working royals at all.
Their only prerogative is the wellbeing of themselves. While the Queen, Frederik and Christian don't have that comodity.
Sometimes duty has to be first, self second. Margrethe is firstly queen, and mother and grandmother secondly. It's cruel to her family members (remember Frederik and Joachim's comments about their time together with the young queen when then they were little boys), but that's how things are.


Although I do not disagree with what you said, it is not sufficiently proven to me why stripping grandchildren of the monarch in collateral line of princely titles is so essential or important to secure the future of the monarchy. And I say that not only with respect to Denmark, but other monarchies as well since that has become a general trend now (Spain, Norway, the Netherlands, Denmark, and possibly the UK in a near future).

The argument that the Queen made in the press release is that the official role of the monarchy will be increasingly performed in the future by fewer members of the RF. That is fine and I think it is what the government and the people in general want to happen to cut down costs associated with the monarchy's official role. But why does it follow that fewer working royals imply necessarily fewer princes and princesses?

The latter would be true only if being a working royal, or having some form of official state role, were required of all princes/princesses, or a necessary condition to be a prince/princess, but that is not the case. The rules that determine who is or is not a prince were never based on any working status, but rather solely on a particular degree of kinship to the current or to a former monarch, or to the heir.
 
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"No comment," Prince Joachim told BT when BT royal correspondent Jacob Heinel Jensen asked him if he and his mother, Queen Margrethe II, had spoken since Monday's press release.

https://www.bt.dk/royale/bt-moeder-...sker-ikke-at-kommentere-dronningens-udmelding

50.6% responded in a new poll that the Queen's decision to withdraw the titles of Prince Joachim's sons is good, while 23.2% are against it.

https://www.seoghoer.dk/kongelige/efter-titelfratagelsen-flertal-af-danskere-enige-med-dronningen

I imagine that if the communications had been more in order and the matter would have been presented in a more harmonious way, the support would have been even higher. Although the Queen perhaps underestimated the intensity of the feelings of her younger son, she did have a good antenna for those of her country(wo)men. Let's hope that Prince Joachim can slowly come to accept his fate and that he and his mother will be able to mend their differences.
 
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I imagine that if the communications would have been more in order and the matter would have been presented in a more harmonious way, the support would have been even higher. Although the Queen perhaps underestimated the intensity of the feelings of her younger son, she did have a good antenna for those of her country(wo)men. Let's hope that Prince Joachim can slowly come to accept his fate and that he and his mother will be able to mend their differences.

Whether he like it or not, this is a bitter pill for him to take. But yes, I hope for forgiveness and reconnection in the family. The Queen is not getting any younger. I remember on her letter she said she wants to do this during her reign.
 
Can't see that happening.

QMII has verbally and in writing confirmed that her decision stands.

Joachim et all really don't have that much to bargain with. - It may permanently sour their relationship with QMII, but better her than with Frederik I imagine she would think. (She even hinted that.)
And I doubt Joachim etc will find sympathy for reversing the decision.

- It was another matter if she had stripped all her grandchildren of their royal status except of course for Christian.

But this has affected Frederik's (and Mary's) relationship with Joachim, et al. Frederik and Mary are now stuck in the middle basically. So what was she saving Frederik from exactly? M&F are getting also criticized and inferences made of all sorts of things. I will say Mary & Frederik, IMO both sometimes looked tense at the opening of parliament today (like they'd prefer to be somewhere else). THIS will continue to overshadow their work IMO as long as the media want their point of flesh..and since apparently QMII cannot demean herself to answer for her actions...well, as predicted M&F are left holding this stinking bag of everything.

Muhler - the council of state is tomorrow...would this be something that is brought up during that meeting?
 
Although I do not disagree with what you said, it is not sufficiently proven to me why stripping grandchildren of the monarch in collateral line of princely titles is so essential or important to secure the future of the monarchy. And I say that not only with respect to Denmark, but other monarchies as well since that has become a general trend now (Spain, Norway, the Netherlands, Denmark, and possibly the UK in a near future).

The argument that the Queen made in the press release is that the official role of the monarchy will in the future be increasingly performed by fewer members of the RF. That is fine and I think it is what the government and the people in general want to happen to cut down costs associated with the monarchy's official role. But why does it follow that fewer working royals imply necessarily fewer princes and princesses?

The latter would be true only if being a working royal, or having some form of official state role, were required of all princes/princesses, or a necessary condition to be a prince/princess, but that is not the case. The rules that determine who is or is not a prince were never based on any working status, but rather solely on a particular degree of kinship to the current or to a former monarch, or to the heir.


I agree with you.
I mentioned it before, I don't particularly like taking away the titles for these 4 children, but I do understand the Queen's logic and I accept her decision. How it was done is terrible, but for me Joachim's and his family's public soap opera is just as bad.


The Queen is on the throne for 50 years. Nobody has better observance of how society has changed in Denmark better then herself. But I am also sure that she carefully observes what is happening in other monarchies. Most of them have been shaken by one or more royal scandals in recent times. And every time it happens, the strongest criticism is aimed at the monarchs for not stripping the culprit of the royal status, titles, military appointments and patronages. In my opinion this, together with constant comments on the cost of the monarchy, is the main reason why more and more monarchs plan to decrease the number of people with titles. And I think Margrethe follows this logic also. Once bitten, twice shy.

She said herself it's very hard thing to do (she doesn't like it but finds it necessary) and she wants to do it herself while still alive. Well, she's 82 and therefore cannot wait for much longer, nobody can guarantee she'll reach 100.

And she obviously wants to spare Frederik of this hard task.
Perfectly understandable.


But also, if Joachim's children were to lose titles some day anyway, I think this is the best timing. None of them is engaged to be married yet, none of them has children of their own. Nikolai and Felix only started with their careers. The sooner, the better.
Her initial mistake was when she gave Nikolai HH prince title. She should have made him HE count and later do the same with his siblings. Had Frederik not married in the meantime and not had 4 children of his own, she would simply one day elevate them to HRH prince. And I'm certain none of them would complain about that!



The way this was handled is very bad. But for that I don't blame only one side, I blame them all. They all had enough time since May to discuss everything, to reach an agreement and to come to terms with it all. And not making fools of themselves and the monarchy.
 
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Monarchs of other countries will be watching and taking note, although every individual situation is different. It all went much better in Sweden, and the lesson seems to be to discuss it with those affected first and try to reach some sort of agreement. But it’s going to be very difficult if those affected want to keep their titles.


I imagine it was the Swedish queen who is aooarently a warm and caring person who helped her husband and family to find a way together. I personally had found it "too much" when the king first supplied all of his grandchildren with Royal styles and ducal titles. So it was good they reduced that. But they did it in a family way and truly, in today's democracies there is no need for those rules on how to address Royals, it's good to use the names as "Prince X" or "Princess Y" but I believe the times are over when Royals need to be addressed as "Your Royal Highness" or "Your Highness", when all men are born equal, they only have different names. But that is the German talking.
 
I don't think we can categorically say that. There was no public outcry apparently to take the titles from Joachim's children, but we don't know to what extent the Danish government was involved in this decision, or even if the proposal came from the government itself.

The truth is that there has been a shift of opinion in Europe when it comes to titles of members of the Royal Family. In the past, a title merely indicated a certain degree of kinship to the monarch (or a former monarch) and had no relation whatsoever with "working" status. Although that is still how the rules on titles are framed in most monarchies, in practice, the new consensus seems to be that people who are not expected to have an official role representing the State or the Royal House should not be titled.

It is debatable if that "new consensus" is justified or not and, of course, even more controversial when any change in the rules also affects living people, especially living adults. But, in any case, Queen Margrethe II's decision seems to be in line with the general principle about who should or should not be titled in a contemporary Royal Family. For some reason, which is not clear yet, she felt she had to make that decision sooner rather than later, and that the decision should apply to the current generation and not only future ones, which has a precedent in Denmark based on the previous changes, for example, to the succession law.
(...)

My guess is that the fact that several non-active royals have been using their titles for personal gain and created controversy doing so (while probably previously it was more accepted and less frontpage news) is one of the reasons why most monarchies have taken steps to reduce the number of princes within their royal house. While previously, the options for the non-main line were often: military (for princes), religion (princes and princesses) or marriage (princesses), nowadays more and more members of the wider royal families decide to go into business and use their status to earn money - and I do think that's a problem... So, from that perspective it makes a lot of sense to limit the number of princes (which also was done in the past based on marriages - it's not that previously titles weren't taken away in the Scandinavian monarchies, that was quite common).

i am surprised this is happening, because the DRF always seemed to be such a close tight knit family. suddenly, it is as if they are/were not and J&M are doing a sussex style scandal, that is unnecessary to have in public. these things should be treated internally!

we will never know the queen's decisions for this, aside from streamlining the monarchy, but it is most odd that only J&M and their family are impacted. what about princess benedikte, and frederik's kids, aside from christian? it seems very targetted i must admit.

Joachim and Marie aren't impacted. Why should Benedikte and Christian's siblings be impacted while they are comparable to J&M and NOT comparable to their cousins?

While most royal families are slimming down, as long as Denmark always required the monarch, regent or a rigsforstander to be present in the country, it makes sense to keep the siblings of the monarch or heirs as official members of the royal house so they can take up that responsibility when the monarch and regent need to be out of the country at the same time.

But Isabella, Vincent, and Josephine are not in the same position as their cousins. They are now grandkids of the Monarch, but in the future they will be children of the Monarch (Frederik). They will be in the same position as Joachim is now, and his title has not changed. Benedikte is the original Joachim, child of a monarch (Frederik IX).

Exactly.

A proposal that makes no sense. Not sure where the Queen or her people got the idea of stripping somebody of their titles at 25. There's no precedent to this.
On the other hand there is a precedent giving a title to someone at their 25th birthday or granting a peerage at a certain age. Previously the stripping was done (and expected to take place for Joachim's children) at marriage. So, moving from 'marriage' to '25' to 'let's do it all at the same time', at least removes the idea that the problem is with the bride or groom of the prince(ss) - as the goal is just to reduce the number of princes of Denmark.

That is why this decision makes zero sense and makes the Queen look like she just work up on a power trip and started taking titles away willy nilly.
The announcement didn't read like that at all. She stressed that she had been thinking about it for many years. A proposal was discussed with Joachim at May 5. So, I'm not sure where the 'power trip' after waking up comes in.

IF this had been an announcement of "going forward" that would have been different. The 4 grandkids keep their titles BUT their children would be count/countess "de Monpezat" PLUS they could have even added that their children's children would ONLY be "de Monpezat" WITHOUT the count/countess title. If that makes sense. It would be a gradual stripping of titles the further down the line. In essence, that would also most likely happen with the CP children as well in the future with maybe exceptions made IF the individual decided to take on royal duties THEN they would be Prince/Princess WITHOUT the HH/HRH.
Joachim and Frederik and their male-line descendants are counts (and komtesses) of Monpezat. This is a nobility title in the nobility of Denmark, so all the rules for the nobility apply. It's not a personal title that was given to the grandchildren but a hereditary one, so it cannot be taken away from their descendants.

The HH was already a step down from the HRH (no need to remove that as well if you keep them princes and princesses - for example Sverre Magnus is just 'Prince SM' in Norway but uses 'HH Prince SM of Norway' internationally.

As long as Benedikte and Joachim are royal highnesses and prince(ss) of Denmark, Christian's siblings should keep their style and titles as well. At least one of them will be needed as Rigsforstander from time to time - and I personally don't see a reason to limit that task a priori to Isabella - as Vincent and Josephine are just as much children and siblings of the future kings.

Although I do not disagree with what you said, it is not sufficiently proven to me why stripping grandchildren of the monarch in collateral line of princely titles is so essential or important to secure the future of the monarchy. And I say that not only with respect to Denmark, but other monarchies as well since that has become a general trend now (Spain, Norway, the Netherlands, Denmark, and possibly the UK in a near future).

The argument that the Queen made in the press release is that the official role of the monarchy will in the future be increasingly performed by fewer members of the RF. That is fine and I think it is what the government and the people in general want to happen to cut down costs associated with the monarchy's official role. But why does it follow that fewer working royals imply necessarily fewer princes and princesses?

The latter would be true only if being a working royal, or having some form of official state role, were required of all princes/princesses, or a necessary condition to be a prince/princess, but that is not the case. The rules that determine who is or is not a prince were never based on any working status, but rather solely on a particular degree of kinship to the current or to a former monarch, or to the heir.

I'd say the behavior of some is a damaging to the monarchy of their respective countries. So, unless all of them would be willing to adhere themselves to very specific limitations in their careers and media presence, it does no longer seem feasible to expect of those that are not expected to land on the throne to adapt their whole lives - and it seems many of them are no longer willing to either (other than profit from their position). Hopefully some of the 'siblings' will continue to be available as support cast when needed (and accept the limitations that come with it) but that will be about it at most.
 
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But this has affected Frederik's (and Mary's) relationship with Joachim, et al. Frederik and Mary are now stuck in the middle basically. So what was she saving Frederik from exactly? M&F are getting also criticized and inferences made of all sorts of things. I will say Mary & Frederik, IMO both sometimes looked tense at the opening of parliament today (like they'd prefer to be somewhere else). THIS will continue to overshadow their work IMO as long as the media want their point of flesh..and since apparently QMII cannot demean herself to answer for her actions...well, as predicted M&F are left holding this stinking bag of everything.

Muhler - the council of state is tomorrow...would this be something that is brought up during that meeting?

Indeed it has become an unnecessary - future - problem for M&F.
The 25 year solution was fine. Even a retroactive 18 year old solution would have worked.
I simply cannot understand what possessed QMII to change her mind in such a radical way.
M&F have now been handed a very odd precedence they have to relate to at some point. Fortunately such things is up to the monarch, so hopefully Frederik will decree a more thoughtful and elegant solution.

I cannot imagine this being a topic at the State Council tomorrow. This is not a national crisis, or a Constitutional crisis, it doesn't even threaten the monarchy. So unless QMII asks for advise or announce something, this will not be a topic.
Anyway, there will be plenty of other topics to discuss tomorrow! I think the PM will announce a general election after having informed QMII at the meeting.
And at that moment DK will go into election mode for at least another month, until we can hopefully have a government in place. - That is also a serious mess! Worse actually. But for once I won't blame the government for messing things up.
 
It all went much better in Sweden, and the lesson seems to be to discuss it with those affected first and try to reach some sort of agreement.
But it’s going to be very difficult if those affected want to keep their titles.


I'm with you about this.
Most likely Carl Philip, Madeleine and their spouses aren't too attached to their own titles and the perks they bring, and would be able to go on as usual even without them, so they assumed that their children won't have problems with not being HRH nor members of the royal house anymore.


But I assume that Joachim and his family don't fall into that category, but into the latter category that you mentioned - the ones who want to keep their titles.
Maybe that's the answer to why no agreement has been reached since May and why it all escalated into this circus. The Queen is determined to introduce changes to the monarchy while still on the throne, while Joachim is determined that his family keep the titles.

The 25 year solution was fine. Even a retroactive 18 year old solution would have worked.


I have to admit that I'm not sure which would be better, 18 (or 25) or all 4 children at once.
First option means that each of the children gets to spend equal amount of time as HH prince(ss). But imagine that Nikolai becomes HE count while Felix is still HH prince, and they attend events together. If I had to meet and greet both of them, that would be very weird (Your Highness, how do you do, nice to meet you, Your Excellency, how do you do, nice to meet you).


Second option means all 4 of them become HE count(ess) at the same time. Yes, that's quite unfair to say Henrik and Athina compared to how long Nikolai and Felix had the title. But then again, they will become equal between each other, maybe that is less painful if they can all support each other.
 
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Indeed it has become an unnecessary - future - problem for M&F.
The 25 year solution was fine. Even a retroactive 18 year old solution would have worked.
I simply cannot understand what possessed QMII to change her mind in such a radical way.
M&F have now been handed a very odd precedence they have to relate to at some point. Fortunately such things is up to the monarch, so hopefully Frederik will decree a more thoughtful and elegant solution.

I cannot imagine this being a topic at the State Council tomorrow. This is not a national crisis, or a Constitutional crisis, it doesn't even threaten the monarchy. So unless QMII asks for advise or announce something, this will not be a topic.
Anyway, there will be plenty of other topics to discuss tomorrow! I think the PM will announce a general election after having informed QMII at the meeting.
And at that moment DK will go into election mode for at least another month, until we can hopefully have a government in place. - That is also a serious mess! Worse actually. But for once I won't blame the government for messing things up.

Thank you Muhler for the explanation re the Council of State.

I still don't understand the sudden urgency to do this when it does not appear that there was any outcry or demand for this change to happen ASAP. In fact, was it even on the radar of Danes at all? So why it had to be done NOW...but then not take effect until January 1st makes zero sense.

I also hope that at some point Frederik will be able to revise this showing a bit more tact, awareness and empathy for all involved. He really got handed a huge lemon IMO.
 
I'm with you about this.
Most likely Carl Philip, Madeleine and their spouses aren't too attached to their own titles and the perks they bring, and would be able to go on as usual even without them, so they assumed that their children won't have problems with not being HRH nor members of the royal house anymore.


But I assume that Joachim and his family don't fall into that category, but into the latter category that you mentioned - the ones who want to keep their titles.
Maybe that's the answer to why no agreement has been reached since May and why it all escalated into this circus. The Queen is determined to introduce changes to the monarchy while still on the throne, while Joachim is determined that his family keep the titles.

Considering Carl Philip and Sofia are full-time working royals exactly like Joachim and Marie (or moreso considering they get to do it in Sweden), and Madeleine lives in the United States with a husband who not only rejected a title but any kind of royal status whatsoever (she is still entirely a princess and royal duchess though, and not without a bit of controversy), I'm not sure what kind of conclusion you're trying to make. Let alone how the difference in their parents' behavior leads to entitled assumptions about Joachim.
 
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And then when he [Juan Carlos] had to take a title for very serious and legitimate reasons?

He left it to Felipe. :whistling:

But there was nobody affected so he took not away the Title from living persons but only limited it for the fugture.

Actually, King Juan Carlos's royal decree in 1987 took away titles from living people. The transitional disposition in the decree that "The members of the family of King Don Juan Carlos I de Borbon, who have been actually recognized as using a title of the Royal House and the style of Royal Highness, shall keep said titles and styles for life" only covered titles and styles recognized by the heads of the Spanish royal house.

Titles which had been recognized by the dictator Francisco Franco without the permission of the heads of the royal house were taken away by the royal decree. For example, King Felipe's cousin Luis Alfonso, the Bourbon pretender to the French throne, has been a mere Excellency in Spain since 1987 (his French royal titles are not recognized in Spain), even though he was legally an HRH at the time of his birth, when Franco remained in power.


In 1969 Don Juan Carlos de Borbón y Borbón, Princípe de Asturias, Príncipe de Gerona, Duque de Montblanc, Conde de Cervera y Señor de Balaguer had to accept that the State determined (and enforced) that his title would be Príncipe de España, period.

A non-historic invented novelty which was very much to his intense dislike but Don Juan Carlos did not go the Joachim-way, with sulking, pouting, wailing: he just took it with a stiff upperlip, knowing that going public would not at all be helpful.

Prince of Spain was more frequently used for heirs after the union of the Spanish crowns, until the 18th century when Prince of Asturias became more common.


However, that was done in Spain by a Royal Decree that was pre-approved in the Council of Minister on the proposal of the Minister of Justice.

In other words, it was a decision of the Spanish government. That is in accordance with the Spanish constitution, which says that the King merely issues the decrees approved by the Council of Ministers. Since the decree affected the titles of his family, I imagine that the King was consulted and was probably in agreement, but ultimately the government is responsible.

We don't know for sure what consultations may have been involved behind the scenes, but the word seems to be that the Spanish title reform of 1987 and the Belgian title-and-surname reform of 2015 were fundamentally the personal decisions of the respective kings, even though the respective governments' approval was necessary.

One unusual consequence of this decision is that male-line descendants of a monarch will not bear any name or title linked to the royal dynasty. (Yes, Count/Countess of Monpezat is legally a Danish nobility title, but it is clearly derived from the premarital surname and title of Prince Consort Henrik, just as the Dutch nobility title and surname HRH Prince/Princess de Bourbon de Parme borne by the children of Princess Irene is clearly modeled on their father's titles of pretense.)

This has not been the case in other European monarchies: Queen Elizabeth II's male-line descendants carry her surname of Windsor together with her husband's surname of Mountbatten, ex-Queen Beatrix's male-line descendants carry her surname of Orange-Nassau together with her husband's surname of Amsberg, etc.


50.6% responded in a new poll that the Queen's decision to withdraw the titles of Prince Joachim's sons is good, while 23.2% are against it.

https://www.seoghoer.dk/kongelige/efter-titelfratagelsen-flertal-af-danskere-enige-med-dronningen

Thank you very much for sharing this poll. Unlike BT's reader-poll, this appears to be a true opinion poll of the general public.

Also interesting are the responses to whether it is "necessary to adjust the number of princes and princesses in the Danish royal house": 57.4% agree that it is necessary, while 19% disagree.

That figure is only 7% higher than the percentage who agree that the title withdrawal is a good decision. So unlike TRF, where many, maybe most of us make a distinction between implementing limitations on royal titles going forward and effecting changes to the titles of living persons, it seems most Danes who support limiting royal titles also have no issue with withdrawing existing titles.


Considering Carl Philip and Sofia are full-time working royals exactly like Joachim and Marie, and Madeleine lives in the United States with a husband who not only rejected a title but any kind of royal status whatsoever (she is still entirely a princess and royal duchess though, and not without a bit of controversy), I'm not sure what kind of conclusion you're trying to make. Let alone how the difference in their parents' behavior leads to entitled assumptions about Joachim.

ppetrica was comparing the parents' (perceived) feelings about the importance of having royal titles.
 
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I'm with you about this.
Most likely Carl Philip, Madeleine and their spouses aren't too attached to their own titles and the perks they bring, and would be able to go on as usual even without them, so they assumed that their children won't have problems with not being HRH nor members of the royal house anymore.


But I assume that Joachim and his family don't fall into that category, but into the latter category that you mentioned - the ones who want to keep their titles.
Maybe that's the answer to why no agreement has been reached since May and why it all escalated into this circus. The Queen is determined to introduce changes to the monarchy while still on the throne, while Joachim is determined that his family keep the titles.



Joachim and family night have taken it better if their children had been very young. The Swedes also got to keep Prince/ess. Communication was clearly better. I don’t really think their situations are that comparable aside from being the children of the spares.
 
Originally Posted by Blog Real View Post
50.6% responded in a new poll that the Queen's decision to withdraw the titles of Prince Joachim's sons is good, while 23.2% are against it.

https://www.seoghoer.dk/kongelige/ef...med-dronningen

How is a poll of only 1,042 people representative of the population? I get that DK is a small country and everything...but still. And how were the questions phrased? What is the demographic of the people polled?

One unusual consequence of this decision is that male-line descendants of a monarch will not bear any name or title linked to the royal dynasty. (Yes, Count/Countess of Monpezat is legally a Danish nobility title, but it is clearly derived from the premarital surname and title of Prince Consort Henrik, just as the Dutch nobility title and surname HRH Prince/Princess de Bourbon de Parme borne by the children of Princess Irene is clearly modeled on their father's titles of pretense.)

This has not been the case in other European monarchies: Queen Elizabeth II's male-line descendants carry her surname of Windsor together with her husband's surname of Mountbatten, ex-Queen Beatrix's male-line descendants carry her surname of Orange-Nassau together with her husband's surname of Amsberg, etc.


Thank you very much for sharing this poll. Unlike BT's reader-poll, this appears to be a true opinion poll of the general public.

Also interesting are the responses to whether it is "necessary to adjust the number of princes and princesses in the Danish royal house": 57.4% agree that it is necessary, while 19% disagree.

That figure is only 7% higher than the percentage who agree that the title withdrawal is a good decision. So unlike TRF, where many, maybe most of us make a distinction between implementing limitations on royal titles going forward and effecting changes to the titles of living persons, it seems most Danes who support limiting royal titles also have no issue with withdrawing existing titles.




ppetrica was comparing the parents' (perceived) feelings about the importance of having royal titles.

Regarding that poll...not sure 1,042 people asked constitutes "most danes" even in a small country like DK. Do we know how the demographic of the people polled?

Joachim and family night have taken it better if their children had been very young. The Swedes also got to keep Prince/ess. Communication was clearly better. I don’t really think their situations are that comparable aside from being the children of the spares.

The situations are not the same. The Swedish monarch handled the situation much better, with way more tact and elegance tbh. Thus, the same debacle was avoided. In addition, as you said, the kids got to keep their titles. Plus when the Swedes did it, it seemed to be a well thought-out and discussed plan that was not announced until everything was in place. In this instance, it seems like something that was not even an issue suddenly had to be rectified/altered ASAP for some reason. And you'd think if this has been something QMII had been thinking of "for years" the execution of it would have been better. And there would not be details that still needed working out and finalizing...then nothing should have been announced until everything was done. So why the hurry? Especially since now there is a 3 month lag for this to even take effect?
 
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Originally Posted by Blog Real View Post
50.6% responded in a new poll that the Queen's decision to withdraw the titles of Prince Joachim's sons is good, while 23.2% are against it.

https://www.seoghoer.dk/kongelige/ef...med-dronningen

How is a poll of only 1,042 people representative of the population? I get that DK is a small country and everything...but still.

As you may recall from a statistics course, a uniform random sample of 1,042 people guarantees an estimate of the percentage of people in favor of the Queen's decision that is equal to the true percentage plus or minus at most 3.1 % in 95 out of 100 samples taken. A uniform random sample here means a sample where any (adult) person in the Danish population has equal probability of being drawn to answer the poll.

We don't know for sure what consultations may have been involved behind the scenes, but the word seems to be that the Spanish title reform of 1987 and the Belgian title-and-surname reform of 2015 were fundamentally the personal decisions of the respective kings, even though the respective governments' approval was necessary.

We don't know for sure if the government consulted the King or if the King himself suggested the changes to the government, but royal decrees, as the preamble of that particular decree says, are always pre-approved in a meeting of the Council of Ministers on the proposal of minister X and then issued by the King. The Spanish constitution is very clear in that point. The ministers are also solely responsible for the content of any royal decree.
 
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That is why this decision makes zero sense and makes the Queen look like she just work up on a power trip and started taking titles away willy nilly. IF this had been an announcement of "going forward" that would have been different. The 4 grandkids keep their titles BUT their children would be count/countess "de Monpezat" PLUS they could have even added that their children's children would ONLY be "de Monpezat" WITHOUT the count/countess title. If that makes sense. It would be a gradual stripping of titles the further down the line. In essence, that would also most likely happen with the CP children as well in the future with maybe exceptions made IF the individual decided to take on royal duties THEN they would be Prince/Princess WITHOUT the HH/HRH.

BUT coming up with any form of creative plan would actually take time. It would also take patience which QMII has clearly stated she does not have when it comes to children.

However, the argument this was done to make things better for those 4 individuals...don't buy it. Take the heat off Frederik? Don't buy it either given he and Mary are not dragged into the middle of this and are getting trashed by some for something they had zero to do with as far as we know at this point.

But the optic of a smiling, happy, not a care in the world QMII while her son says he's hurt and hasn't heard from her is not very appealing tbh. And yeah, I know...we only know one side, etc. However, her statement stating she had no idea they would react this way tells me she made a unilateral decision on her own. And my continued question(s) as to why amongst others have still not been answered.

Now I'm confused :ohmy:
Question: do the changes effective January 2023 create four family branches named Monpezat within the Danish nobility? Like the UK Baron Rotschild's family and the Austrian/French Baron Rothschild's family?
 
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I agree with Izzie, not a popular opinion here but I'm glad not to being alone in this.

In this new video the opening of the Danish Parliament is shown. It is hard to see the Queen, her son and wife and her sister (second daughter who shouldn't be a HRH or Princess of Denmark following the criteria taken for Joachim's grandchildren) full of smiles and happiness like if nothing had happened. Something very serious happened at least in that family. A little more seriousness would have been better, at least in the Queen who just has had a conflict with his second son and grandchildren where (with or without reason depending of what you think) they are very hurt and feel damaged. The video gives the idea that she doesn't care. Being a mother and grandmother myself (not a Queen, of course) I cannot understand that coldness.
 
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In this new video the opening of the Danish Parliament is shown. It is hard to see the Queen, her son and wife and her sister (second daughter who shouldn't be a HRH or Princess of Denmark following the criteria taken for Joachim's grandchildren) full of smiles and happiness like if nothing had happened. Something very serious happened at least in that family. A little more seriousness would have been better, at least in the Queen who just has had a conflict with his second son and grandchildren where (with or without reason depending of what you think) they are very hurt and feel damaged. The video gives the idea that she doesn't care. Being a mother and grandmother myself (not a Queen, of course) I cannot understand that coldness.

Benedikte, like Joachim, is the child of a Sovereign and therefore, just like Joachim, is an HRH Prince/ss of Denmark. No criteria has changed there.

They are at work, and acting professional, just like one does at work. One does not bring their personal drama to work.
 
Benedikte, like Joachim, is the child of a Sovereign and therefore, just like Joachim, is an HRH Prince/ss of Denmark. No criteria has changed there.

They are at work, and acting professional, just like one does at work. One does not bring their personal drama to work.

But in a plan of slimming the monarchy I think it would have been a good sign to include her sister. The criteria is to reduce the princes and princesses but it appears to only touch Joachim's family.

Of course they are acting professional, but a little too much joy for my taste. Sometimes a little discretion (even if it is not felt from the heart) isn't bad to avoid causing your son and grandchildren more pain.
 
But in a plan of slimming the monarchy I think it would have been a good sign to include her sister. The criteria is to reduce the princes and princesses but it appears to only touch Joachim's family.

Of course they are acting professional, but a little too much joy for my taste. Sometimes a little discretion (even if it is not felt from the heart) isn't bad to avoid causing your son and grandchildren more pain.

HM's intention is to "future-proof" the monarchy i.e. looking to the future. Hence why she downsized the titled younger members of her family so they can build a future without the duty that comes with their titles. Removing Benedikte's title, who is already at retirement age and has served the Crown with utmost dignity, would just be petty.
 
HM's intention is to "future-proof" the monarchy i.e. looking to the future. Hence why she downsized the titled younger members of her family so they can build a future without the duty that comes with their titles. Removing Benedikte's title, who is already at retirement age and has served the Crown with utmost dignity, would just be petty.

Saragli, you are at the Antártida. Too cold for me.

I agree with the intention of downsizing the members of the monarchy a lot and I think it is a good idea. And if it is looking to the future everything now is new and it wouldn't be important to follow the the old rules. Such as if one person is the daughter of a late King or Queen or not. The idea would be very interesting if it meant to establish new rules.

I think that it would be fair and useful to reduce the monarchy to the Queen, the Crown Prince and Princess and the two first children of the couple. And to quit the HRH titles of the rest of the family: the rest of the grandchildren from the two sons, her sister and even Joachim and his wife. Nobody would be offended then (or everybody would be offended in the same way LOL), there would be a difference like in Spain with the "Familia Real" and "Familia del Rey" and it wouldn't be seen as something discretional like it is happening now.

You can think it is rather radical, but that would really be "new rules" looking at the future and the idea of preserving the monarchy that has proven to be very good.

I think things like they were done were poorly thought and done and nothing really changes. And I am sorry for that because they meant innecessary suffering.

Well, Saragli, it is late and I am going to sleep. Good conversation indeed.
 
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But in a plan of slimming the monarchy I think it would have been a good sign to include her sister. The criteria is to reduce the princes and princesses but it appears to only touch Joachim's family.

Of course they are acting professional, but a little too much joy for my taste. Sometimes a little discretion (even if it is not felt from the heart) isn't bad to avoid causing your son and grandchildren more pain.

But Benedikte is a working royal, while the 4 children aren't and never will be.
If Benedikte wasn't a working royal, in that case I agree with you, Benedikte should be the first one to lose her title.

This is not just any public outing of the royal family, this is state opening of parliament. The royals attending it are acting just as they should. I am certain that Joachim and Marie don't see it as a problem as they have attended state openings themselves in the past. If they were present here with the Queen, Frederik, Mary and Benedikte, I'm sure they would act just the same. In my opinion their public outbursts about the titles weren't acceptable, but I am sure that what ever official public engagement they attend in the near future, they'll act professionally.
 
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